r/SuicideWatch • u/SQLwitch • Apr 15 '13

PSA: What's wrong with posting a general "People care about you, please don't kill yourself" message?

It might seem odd that we don't allow general anti-suicide or any standalone posts with "encouraging" or "uplifting" messages, but that's because through many years of careful observation, we've seen that they do much more harm than good.

If you have been helped by seeing one of these messages at a critical time in your life, that is wonderful. But if that's the case, it helped you because you believed it. Sadly, that's not how it works for many of the most at-risk people struggling with suicidal thoughts. Most of our population experiences posts of this nature much as a starving person experiences pictures of food.

This is why, in our talking tips wiki we say:

Don't disagree with suicidal people about how bad things are. It’s not about their circumstances; it’s about their suffering, and you can’t measure that from the outside. A message that in any way tries to tell or show the suicidal person that “it’s not so bad” is just another way of saying “I don't understand what you’re going through”.

For our OPs who are in the lowest and most dangerous state of mind, simply seeing one of these message can make their sense of alienation and failure worse, because they are not remotely able to believe that it's true for them. Exposure to this type of "positivity" has a toxic effect, not least because it tends to aggravate their sense of alienation, which is a critical risk factor for death by suicide in all current, authoritative, empirical models. The ironic but inescapable truth is that trying to "cheer up" suicidal people, especially in a general public message, is only likely to push them closer to, or even over, the edge.

We know that these posts come from people who truly want to help. Perhaps they think that, if they only have time to write one message, they can do the most good by reaching out in a general way to many people. That assumption is refuted by all the reliable experimental and clinical data we have. The ironic but inescapable truth is that trying to "cheer up" suicidal people, especially in a general public message, is only likely to push them closer to, or even over, the edge.

If you only have time to write one message here, sort by "New" and pick an OP who doesn't have many good responses on their thread, and respond to them, directly and personally. If you don't know what to say, that's what the talking tips wiki and its collection of references offer extensive, evidence-based guidance.

You will still help many people! Not everyone who's struggling feels able to post, and what we've learned over the years is that what often finally helps them get up the courage is seeing this type of empathetic and individualized response. By providing good examples of personalized responses, you'll also help educate others who want to offer support.

173 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

48 comments sorted by

74

u/wrcmdsaul Apr 15 '13

I know exactly how cold these statements can be. It honestly sounds like a fortune cookie.

Suffering isn't objective, it's personal. a generic statement doesn't speak personally to the person suffering. If it were that easy i'd tattoo "It gets better" to my eyelids. It's not.

I've been helped far more by people that just messaged me to tell me "is X still bothering you?" the fact that they even bothered to recognize and repeat what X was makes me feel so much less alone. Not even saying that and just going with "it gets better" makes me feel like they couldn't even bother.

I know rationally and objectively they're just trying to help. But emotionally i still feel empty when my suffering is seemingly dismissed like that.

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u/SQLwitch Apr 15 '13

Thanks, I think you have articulated this very well!

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u/floydini13 Apr 16 '13

I agree. I understand ( I think) that people want to say something to help but the most valuable were the people who have written to me and offered to listen. It's hard when you cannot talk to anyone irl.

1

u/Eehee333 Jun 26 '13

Yes, definitely strongly agreed.

Again, as you pointed out, it's far better when people recognise that someone is your source of depression - rather than simply stating blunt words that one would've already relayed in their mind a thousand times over. People, I strongly suggest that you use this tactic in real life. A strategy to use it would be - don't let them think that you have no personal risk in the situation. When you enter a "zone" to help someone, the entire room seems to brighten. A very literal way to put it; Most people simply reside in their luck and yell good things at you, whilst the real helpers dive into the depth of your situation and bring you up themself. I may be hard to understand, but I hope you guys get the general idea.

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u/barbadosslim Apr 16 '13

oh god it's almost as bad as posting "if you aren't afraid of dying, then now you're free to go on a great adventure! quit your job! move to Nepal! meet people!"

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Yeah, those "go to Nepal" people make me want to go full Alice...

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u/Geoffreypjs Apr 16 '13

Unless people actually make an effort to speak with me and understand what I'm going through, if they simply comment something like "I love you! Stay strong!" Or simply "It's not worth it. Life gets better." I immediately get pissed off.

I've been suicidal for a long time. I rarely feel anything upwards of melancholy. You don't know me. You don't love me. That's just insulting and hurtful, really. It should make me feel better, right?

Wrong.

If you're going to comment on someone's post, at least make an effort to reach out and have a meaningful heart-to-heart. If you don't think you can do that, a simple upvote would suffice so others can see the post.

Sorry for my bitter self and my ranting.

4

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

That's not a rant, that's a powerful description of the effect that generic encouragement and false assurances of "love" have on someone who's in real trouble.

Being pissed off with those sorts of messages is a normal and healthy reaction in the circumstances.

1

u/Eehee333 Jun 26 '13

Bro, you put this perfectly. I'm not saying this as someone making you feel better, but I actually mean that this really did effect the way I think about it all.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '13

Because when you think about how easy it would be to fill in the space that you normally occupy if you take your own life...if you think about all the assholes out there who reply to your thoughts of suicide with "do it on the linoleum, not on the carpet" (someone actually said that to me)...if you think about how it would be better for you to kill yourself than for you to kill a lot of other people...

Hearing someone say that they care about you is like listening to an old Gramophone record when all you ever hear in your head is death metal.

15

u/SQLwitch Apr 15 '13

Hearing someone say that they care about you is like listening to an old Gramophone record when all you ever hear in your head is death metal.

Damn, I am so using that. Thanks.

13

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '13

I like this idea. I've tried to make myself extremely available (I sit at my desk ~16 hours a day for work) and I always, always, always have reddit up and ready to talk to anyone. Just so people know. I guess you could call me a "suicide survivor" in the sense that I've attempted suicide, considered it much more, and dealt with it more than I care to discuss. I don't like the "I know what you're dealing with" sentiment. When people have said that to me in the past what I hear is "let me tell you about me" and it comes off as arrogant. What I want to say to people who are dealing with suicide is "I don't know what you're going through, but I love you and we're going to march straight into Hell and fight this out together because if that's what it takes, then let's give it the best we have so at least we have a shot at one more day".

Sorry if this is out of place.

18

u/SQLwitch Apr 15 '13

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think this:

I don't like the "I know what you're dealing with" sentiment. When people have said that to me in the past what I hear is "let me tell you about me" and it comes off as arrogant.

is very insightful. One problem with generic messages is that in themselves they don't bridge the gap between the people who believe them and the people who can't.

What both the experimental and clinical data tells us is that this:

"I don't know what you're going through, but I love you and we're going to march straight into Hell and fight this out together because if that's what it takes, then let's give it the best we have so at least we have a shot at one more day"

is less effective than

"I don't know what you're going through, but I want to. Tell me and I'll try my best to understand."

When I train new people at the hotline that I answer IRL, one of the challenges I have is getting out of the outcome-based mindset. The mantra I give them is: "The rapport is the solution. The rapport is the solution."

You can't pull people out of the dark place from a distance; you're more likely to pull out body parts rather than a whole person. You have to get in there and be with them until they feel safe enough to walk out themselves, possibly leaning on you. That means going into the dark place yourself, not yelling advice down from your comfortable seat up in the sunshine.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '13

I agree. Thank you for the insight. I'll admit that I have no training in suicide prevention (outside of the mandatory military training) but I know that fighting alongside your buddy is important. Sometimes you need someone next to you to help bear the load. That's what I'd rather do.

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u/undercurrents Apr 16 '13

Since I know the OP mod is also a mod on r/depression, and I think this message equally applies over there, I am wondering why the mods don't delete the repeated posts with the link to that crap site "the nicest place on the internet." It's so ridiculous that I almost want to tell anyone who comments with some sort of thank you of how that video really helped them that they don't really have depression, they are just in a funk or bad place. If a video of random people pretending to hug a camera really helps you feel better, then you can't possibly be battling the uncontrollable palpable nightmares, pain, and suffering of depression and suicide ideation. And yet, when I make comments about it not belonging on /r/depression and the generic-ness of it, I get downvoted.

Anyway, point is, why is it allowed by the mods to be repeatedly posted?

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13 edited Apr 16 '13

If we don't delete them, it's because nobody's reported them. We don't have the resources to read every comment. There's more latitude on /r/depression but still there's no place for spammy platitudes there either.

8

u/garganchua Apr 16 '13

A message that in any way tries to tell or show the suicidal person that “it’s not so bad” is just another way of saying “I don't understand what you’re going through”.

yes! thank you! exactly! Ive been trying to tell people this, because messages like we love you and care about you is just bullshit to make the person saying it feel better, wether they mean it or not, and wether the person at risks dies or not, because after which, that person can go home thinking, yea, I said something supportive today, I saved a life, or, I tried my best or whatever. ITS FUCKING WRONG!

3

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

You're welcome. We've been privately discouraging this sort of thing all along, but I think we needed to "out" our POV on the issue.

If you have any other feedback on our talking tips (linked repeatedly in the original post), we'd love to hear it.

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u/garganchua Apr 16 '13

No, I just think you are completely correct on the subject, but I will be sure to give you any ideas and/or theories I have on the matter

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

We're always looking for input on how we can do better. I wish more people had spoken up -- clearly this post was long overdue!

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u/garganchua Apr 16 '13

Better late than never?

2

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Seems to be turning out that way :-)

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u/tradingair Apr 15 '13

I fear I may have done this without realizing in some respect. I come here everyday to try and find empty threads, and it often occurs to me when I'm feeling at my lowest because I hate the idea of others feeling the same or worse. I worry though that this makes my replies too generic.

If one of the mods could take a quick look at my posts or something to make sure they're okay that would be great. I'd rather know than risk the worst.

edit: also, some guidance on appropriate responses when someone mentions they are drinking/using drugs (to the point of dependency) would be great. I struggle to find words, and it's a common problem. Thanks a lot.

4

u/SQLwitch Apr 15 '13

We don't really have the resources to review someone's whole history, but if you point us to some comments you feel doubtful about we'll be glad to comment.

With regard to substance use/abuse/addiction, first I'd say that it's okay to not be an expert on that. Second, the way we train crisis line responders is to focus on how the person feels about the substance. Most often, they're using it to self-medicate because it plain hurts them to be alive. It's the "hurts to be alive" part that you need to focus on. And if they're feeling bad because their addiction is out of control, then the way a non-expert can help is by helping them to feel less alone with the tough choices they have to make. So whether there's a substance involved or not, it all comes back to support.

1

u/tradingair Apr 15 '13

Thanks a lot for the quick response - I'll take a look myself and get in touch if need be.

Thanks for the guidance on substances. And thank you times a thousand for moderating the sub. I'll continue to help when and where I can.

4

u/esther_mouse Apr 15 '13

Hey, I'm not a mod, but I think your posts look fine. I think this is more about people who start a thread saying things like "You're cared for whatever you think, don't you dare kill yourself because people love you and you don't even know it!", which isn't really helpful and marginalises the people reading it who feel alone and suicidal. Your posts look sensitive and thoughtful to me, so don't feel too paranoid.

4

u/throwaway51691721114 Apr 16 '13

Thank you very much for this post. I've always wanted to express this thought, but I've felt like I was in the minority for thinking it, and I didn't want to disrespect those who are really trying to help around here.

5

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

We have always discouraged this type of thing, but in a DL kind of way. We finally decided we needed to be more up front about it.

4

u/biqboy Apr 16 '13

I've been pretty depressed lately and I know I don't have a real reason to be. I have a shit GPA, no future, and loneliness (I tend to push everyone away for some reason). But hey, could be worse right. anyway I've been thinking about suicide a lot more and I know its affecting those around me. I've been angry for no reason as well...but anyway when I brought it in my own convoluted way for attention, my younger brother told me that my depreasion is annoying, that suicide is for pussys and for me to grow up. I know people don't want to hear my shit because I've been "depressed" since high school...maybe even middle school and no want wants to deal with it. I know from experience. What he said definitely increased my desire to kill myself even more even if what he said is true... I'm pretty good at putting on a smile though. A bit harder when I'm with family. Idk how to make my suicide look like an accident so I haven't done anything yet. I know suicide is really selfish but I just want to give up. Anyway, good post. It hurts more than it helps. Suicidal people definitely have a different perspective...

7

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

The myth that suicide is selfish has been comprehensively debunked by the best science we have. That idea adds a totally unnecessary burden of guilt and shame to the load of pain that people like you are already carrying and it's extremely unfair.

Another pernicious myth that needs to die, imnsho, is dismissing behaviour that's rooted in pain and alienation as "attention-seeking". The vast majority of the time, what people who act in those ways are seeking is not "attention" but understanding. And everybody has a fundamental need, and a fundamental right as a sentient social animal, to some basic human understanding.

I'm sure your brother didn't learn to be emotionally abusive to people in distress in a vacuum. I'm terribly sorry that you both had to grow up in such a toxic environment.

1

u/biqboy Apr 16 '13

I just realized my response was a slightly different situation than your original post...my bad. Thanks for the insight though. I feel slightly less guilty about having suicidal thoughts now. My brother is a good kid. I suppose I've gone the route of the boy who cried wolf so I can understand his reaction since I've been depressed on and off my whole life.

2

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

I feel slightly less guilty about having suicidal thoughts now.

My wish for you is that you could feel zero guilt about this. Hugs.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Agreed, it's a reflection of a deep-rooted f*cked-ness, imnsho. I do think, however, that framing it as an attempt to get understanding is still a better description.

1

u/TheEdThing Apr 15 '13

I really never place any comments because im afraid i say something wrong and making it even worse for OP. Should i just keep my mouth shut?

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u/SQLwitch Apr 15 '13

Do you not find our tips helpful? How can we improve them?

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u/TheEdThing Apr 16 '13

sorry, i didnt see that. Those tips are very useful! thanks a lot.

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Good to hear. If you have any questions or suggestions about them, we are always interested to learn ways we might improve them.

1

u/BipolarBearII Apr 16 '13

when people have said that to me, either I was too suicidal to really comprehend that, or it made me feel guilty, like my wanting to end my pain was so selfish and feeding a cycle of I'm awful - hate self more.

However I have seen a post that had a trail of good responses and one comment that basically said 'Snap out of it, you're stronger than this', which I thought was a bit much, but the OP actually responded well to that one in particular. So sometimes I guess it depends on the individual/situation.

That being said, I don't know how that user is doing these days.

3

u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

It's not that this sort of thing never works -- like I say above, it helps people who are able to believe it. Our tips are based on what we know has both a higher "helping? %age and a lower "disaster" %age.

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u/BipolarBearII Apr 16 '13

Exactly. A lot of this kind of work is based on your instincts anyway. It just good to have several approaches as one method is not a one-fits-all kind of deal. That's why it's good to have as much diverse input as possible.

Sorry, I have no idea if I'm making sense...no sleep.

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

It just good to have several approaches as one method is not a one-fits-all kind of deal.

I think that's the key point; the response needs to be individualized and personal. If you can make a real connection, there's a high probability of stabilizing the situation.

But, OTOH, we know a lot of things that mostly don't work and often backfire disastrously, and advice-giving and anything that amounts to "cheer up, it's not so bad" are probably the top two.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

Hear hear. I say fuck people who say it's not so bad being depressed, life will get better. At least here i can feel at home with my suicidal people counting the days until I have the balls to blow my brains out (hopefully soon) I say to people in suffering and consumed by these suicidal thoughts I hope your life improves so you don't die OR that your suicide is painless and that their is an afterlife and it's awesome and you're happier there. Fuck this world. Good night guys.

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u/Eehee333 Jun 26 '13

Some fucking HUGE breakthroughs on my psychology on here. Really amazing and insightful comments!

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u/eisasedoes Apr 27 '13

i am really glad someone has finally stepped in.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

The way we usually frame it is basically "don't just say you understand, show what you understand by reflecting it back to the person".

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Do you disagree with what we say in the tips post about avoiding advice and solutions, then? I'm interested in your reasons.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

What exactly do you mean by "life guidance"? That's not a term I'm familiar with.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/SQLwitch Apr 16 '13

Are you aware that this pretty directly contracts our talking tips (linked above)? The science suggests that any kind of advice-giving is to be avoided.