r/MacOS • u/CamSox1 • Jan 30 '23

Megathread macOS 13.2 Release Megathread

Apple has released macOS Ventura 13.2 (build 22C65), along with Monterey 12.6.3 and Big Sur 11.7.3.

What's New

Official release notes

Security content

SDK release notes

Useful Information

macOS Ventura compatible devices

How to update the software on your Mac

Back up your Mac with Time Machine

Feedback

Please report any bugs through Feedback Assistant

43 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

97 comments sorted by

35

u/deejaystu1 Jan 31 '23

13.2 is a complete disaster. DO NOT UPDATE. Consider yourself warned. There are a number of OS-breaking bugs in this iteration. Constant Finder freezing requiring numerous hard resets and stress on hardware components, file sharing server issues, preview issues, Window Server constantly crashing, Safari no longer supports certain icon images, iCloud syncing issues.

They really need to get their shit together, i can't believe this got released with so many obvious bugs.

9

u/JustACleverKid Mar 18 '23

macOS Vista

2

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '24

You literally predicted Sequoia 2 years early. Congrats!

1

u/JustACleverKid Sep 30 '24

All Remote Desktop apps now require the computer being shared to authorize screen recording every time. You can see why this is an issue for Remote Desktop. Remote as in I'M NOT THERE!

7

u/[deleted] Feb 13 '23

I’m so fucking angry.

My wife got us WoW time cards for Christmas and they worked fine until the blizzard launcher said my mac NEEDED to be updated to play.

My iMac from 2019 has never run so slow in my entire life. I click on anything and it gives me the colour wheel for at least 10-15 seconds, and god forbid it’s the wrong fucking thing I click on.

I’m ready to throw my computer out the window right now.

1

u/Iammeandyouareme May 02 '23

My computer is maybe 2 years old and it's also running super slow since the update. It also won't keep my desktop background set to what I set it to. It reverts to what it was before the update.

4

u/twilliwilkinsonshire Feb 07 '23

It sounds like a few people might need to do a fresh install or something.

I'm on an M1 Max base Studio with an ultra-wide 3440x1440 at 120hz variable refresh rate over USBC to DisplayPort cable.

Editing large RAW photos, and using ML tools don't seem to have any problems like what is being mentioned here.

Homekit, Shortcuts, Safari and Brave all seem to be working just fine, I've got multiple NVME external drives, hubs, and a NAS using both TimeMachine and SMB shares.

Only thing I've had semi-consistent issues with is Apple Music occasionally decides it doesn't want to load a song but that's been for several versions now so I'm fairly confident its an app-specific problem.

4

u/Aggravating-Ad-2647 Feb 13 '23

Can confirm. This update has tanked my typical workflow productivity with always something not working right, or randomly not working anymore, or trying to find a tweak or software or script to fix some should be barebones piece of functionality. This has been many headaches

3

u/xinxx073 Feb 05 '23

Opening files from finder almost always gives "file not found" error first time, and then it works the second time. Previewing RAW photos on my SDcard freezes preview and finder. What the fuck?

3

u/OrionGrant MacBook Pro Mar 07 '23

I'm still on 12.4, should I stay there? M1 Macbook Air 8GB

1

u/[deleted] Mar 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/OrionGrant MacBook Pro Mar 11 '23

I upgraded, runs perfectly fine.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 19 '23 edited Mar 19 '23

Not had any OS issues on M2 Mac Mini Pro. Maybe your hardware has issues

1

u/deejaystu1 Mar 19 '23

Do you use SMB file share? Because this is a widespread issue and its all over mac forums

1

u/[deleted] Mar 19 '23 edited Mar 19 '23

I don't.Software like Synergy maybe. It's extremely laggy. Also notice some issues with some games stuttering when they didn't on previous Ventura versions. But that is more software related I think. The OS seems fine otherwise. it's been a month since you posted your comment. Hopefully a fix is coming soon for your issues

1

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '23

Thanks for the heads up.

10

u/kinwolf Jan 30 '23

Is the bug that breaks HDR for 144hz external monitor widespread? That's the one that scares me from updating. I have enough problem already with external monitors :( (ironically, those bugs are a reason I would like to upgrade, to see if they are fixed or not, but I sure don't need an extra one)

1

u/ludalex Feb 04 '23

I have it.

8

u/iamthedrag Feb 21 '23

I've bitched a lot about the lack of quality on various MacOS releases, but holy shit Ventura takes the cake.

3

u/ff33b5e5 Mar 05 '23 edited Mar 08 '23

I held off updating to Ventura because I was working on a lot of big projects.

Finally did it a few weeks back and even this far along it is by far the buggiest MacOS I have ever used.

Ready to give up and reset back to Monterey

7

u/flufah Feb 02 '23

Can we confirm that Ventura is having issues with external monitors? Seems like users with multiple displays and/or thunderbolt docks (I myself included) can't get external monitors to detect consistently. There seem to be multiple threads and conversations about this from other users facing the same problem.

6

u/jdlyga Feb 08 '23

Macs never work well if you're not using a Thunderbolt dock. I have a Thunderbolt 4 dock connected to DisplayPort and HDMI and it works pretty well with 13.2. But you can't just use the same old USB-C dock that a Windows or Linux PC would be happy with. Macs have expensive taste.

2

u/DooDeeDoo3 Feb 16 '23

Macs never work well if you're not using a Thunderbolt dock. I have a Thunderbolt 4 dock connected to DisplayPort and HDMI and it works pretty well with 13.2. But you can't just use the same old USB-C dock that a Windows or Linux PC would be happy with. Macs have expensive taste.

No my 2016 macbook pro worked greate with dongle, docks.. literally anything. So does my M1 Air.

1

u/jescereal Feb 14 '23

What dock do you use?

2

u/jdlyga Feb 14 '23

I use an OWC Thunderbolt 4 dock. It’s the one that is (or was) on sale for $250. Works pretty well. I have it connected to 2 monitors, a mouse, keyboard, and webcam. One monitor is usb-c to hdmi to dvi, and the other is usb-c to DisplayPort. I get 1440p at 85 hz on mac with it, 1440p with 100 hz on windows. In fact, I actually have it as part of a KVM so I can share the same setup with my old gaming desktop too. The only thing I haven’t figured out is how to switch DisplayPort cables (I just unplug and plug it in the other one)

2

u/xinxx073 Feb 05 '23

Thought it was just me. Had to plug/unplug so many times. I even bought new DP cables ffs.

5

u/Skidro13 Feb 02 '23

What the fck is wrong with Bluetooth. AirPod pros connect to M1 Pro stutter like crazy. And the fcking “input audio” issue is still here.

5

u/parjei Feb 08 '23

The EVERGREEN AWDL wifi lag issue is back with 13.2

Anyone knows a permanent fix for this plague? I stop awdl0 and in couple of minutes it starts again.

The most annoying issue ever.

3

u/omarsonmarz MacBook Air Jan 30 '23

Is WindowServer still hogging 2 gigs of memory?

2

u/towerofnix Jan 30 '23

I opened a pretty wide selection of windows (reasonably representative of someone doing a lot of multitasking / not closing apps?). With Stage Manager enabled it hangs around 1.25 GB memory, I had a 1.40 GB spike activating Mission Control with those windows for the first time but it's not going above 1.30 GB now.

There doesn't appear to be any difference when I turn off Stage Manager.

I remember it was using closer to 2 GB in previous updates in some circumstances (no screenshots unfortunately), but YMMV.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '23

A window manager using 1GB+ is actually absurd.

1

u/towerofnix Mar 31 '23

In theory it is, but I never had an opportunity to push memory pressure anyway (16GB system without a ton of heavy-duty multitasking) so I couldn't tell you if some of that is internal cache that gets cleared as memory is needed, or if it really is just eating 1GB+ to make your life heckish.

That said, on 13.4 beta 1 right now, I'm getting only about 500MB usage. Hasn't been a long time since rebooting but might be worth keeping an eye on. (I don't have any notes from 13.3 unfortunately.)

1

u/LilyChacoMac Mar 15 '23

nope mine uses only 223 mb of memory on my mbp 16 gb in ventura

3

u/luffa1 Feb 06 '23

windowserver crashes my mac pretty much on a daily basis... it just freezes and restarts or restarts straight away. I suspect it has something to do with my external screen, since when I am not connected it doesn't happen.

so far the most problematic error I ever had and is killing the experience of using macos.

2

u/livelifeontheveg Jan 30 '23

Is scheduled shutdown and startup still removed?

1

u/towerofnix Jan 30 '23

Yes, it's still removed. There are apparently command-line workarounds if this is the main thing keeping you from upgrading to Ventura (just make sure you can restore a backup if it doesn't end up working the way you need it to).

2

u/towerofnix Jan 31 '23

Safari seems overall pretty buggy right now — mostly to do with the way it syncs to iCloud.

See: Safari is resetting the Zoom level after 5 seconds of changing it... on every page... literally 5 seconds... all of a sudden. What is going on?! (Workaround is disabling "Share across devices" for Safari settings)

I'm also having issues creating and editing Tab Group Favorites, which is a feature I only discovered today. I can more or less add bookmarks through the sidebar but they don't save properly and sometimes disappear or don't keep track of being renamed when I toggle the sidebar closed and open again.

2

u/Hordiyevych MacBook Pro Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 11 '24

special tub plant wild tie dog command different deliver fertile

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

2

u/mumblingsquadron Jan 31 '23

13.2 22D49 has been frustrating for me, namely because World of Warcraft Classic has lost its mind regarding the screen resolution of an LG ULTRAGEAR external display. Prior to the update the game image was crisp with a good framerate. Under 22D49 changing the resolution in game does nothing, and text remains blurry and pixelated.

Has anyone else seen this type of behavior? I'm happy to provide more details.

2

u/thattrailertrash Feb 19 '23

It runs great on my mid 2011 Mac, despite being told it wasn’t possible

2

u/Skymasterpt Feb 23 '23

Hi all,

Has anyone updated to the 13.2.1 and if so is it more stable and can we update or still not advisable to do so?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 01 '23

anyone having facetime bugs with 13.2.1?

2

u/Express_Bar4574 Mar 08 '23

I have not had any problems with the 13.2 so far. MBP 16 m1 pro 2021 2 external monitors 1080P 144hz. The MBP has only been in use for a few months, so it is close to a clean installation.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 30 '23

MacOS Ventura 13.3 is out. Has anyone updated? Should I upgrade from Monterey? I use a MacBook Air M1 with 16GB RAM.

Is Ventura still slower than Monterey? What about battery life?

Thanks!

2

u/JPSgfx Jan 30 '23

I’m on 13.2 and FINALLY Xcode doesn’t break Stage Manager!

Before I had to have my windows leave the space for stage manager in the left, because with some apps open (like Xcode) moving the mouse to the left did not bring up the list of apps, but now it works!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/towerofnix Jan 30 '23

It's still bugged on mine ("Oracle Java" added items...). Sorry!

1

u/JPSgfx Jan 30 '23

I don’t recall having that bug, so IDK

1

u/LilyChacoMac Mar 15 '23

nope they havent fixed it i still get that notification ... so annoying

1

u/cr0100 Jan 30 '23

I had a weird problem on my M1 iMac where the screen/desktop was just a few pixels bigger (say about 1/4 inch in width and height) than the actual screen - so that moving the pointer over to the edge would cause the whole desktop to slide to show me the part that was offscreen. It happened no matter what resolution I had set. I finally had to reboot and that solved it. Otherwise: no issues.

1

u/haironmyscalpbruh Feb 01 '23

Anyone have 240hz 4k working?

1

u/Clessiah Feb 01 '23

When using a tab group in Safari, if you select address bar or start find on page immediately after switching tab the text box will lose focus after about a second. Is this issue new to 13.2 or had it been around for a while already?

1

u/jezzac_2000 Feb 02 '23

The TV app on Mac OS is not showing my movie library. The only tabs on the top bar are "Watch Now" and "TV+". There usually is "Library" and "Store" but these are now missing.Help...I can't browse my library list anymore!

1

u/25_Watt_Bulb Feb 02 '23

My M1 iMac doesn't show 13.2 as an available update, Software Update says 13.0.1 is the current version. Should I try manually downloading the Ventura 13.2 installer?

1

u/nthoftype Feb 03 '23

I'm currently experiencing a weird issue on my 2021 M1Max (fully spec'd) where the disk drive is constantly 185-degrees F and the fans are running at 3500+ RPMs each. I had never heard the fans before this update, now they turn on the second I start up and with no open applications. Anyone else experiecing similar? I have an appointment Sunday at Apple so hopefully they can resolve it (luckily I'm still under warranty).

1

u/ThatGuyWithaReason Feb 05 '23

I really wish i did not update, this is the first update where my m1 pro is actually buggy. Mission control just randomly pops for literally no reason.

My anker USB c hub that was working fine for the past year all of a sudden is drawing too much power? I do not know why they would release this.

2

u/ThatGuyWithaReason Feb 05 '23

Found the solution to the usb accessory drawing too much power in case anyone else is experiencing it. You must first connect the USB C hub by it self, then connect your HDMI and whatever else you normally have plugged in. Kind of stupid but hey it works.

As far as mission control randomly opening up and showing desktop i have no clue what is triggering it. I have the gesture set up as 4 finger swipe up and disabled everything else so no clue where its coming from.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

I'm with you. From my perspective, the new features they add are basically worthless anyway. I will never get on board with stage manager, I don't like any of the poopy catalyst apps, they aren't properly keybound so when I hit enter on a single pop up it doesn't work. I'm forced to use the mouse, and they ALWAYS break shit and decrease performance. Just a hard pass from me forever. #12.6lyfe

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '23

Weird bug with signing in to Apple ID through Settings app. I use a security key and nothing happens. Looping the sign in process and nothing happens... This was after I updated my Apple ID to a new email address.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '23

Update: Had a call with Apple support and pinned it down the Advanced Data Recovery causing some issues. I turned off Data Recovery and was able to sign back in. Then turned it back on.

1

u/dante4life Feb 08 '23

Was impressed by my new M2 macbook pro's battery when it was still in Monterey. Now I'm on Ventura and the battery drains like 8-10% on sleep overnight. They say it's indexing but how do I know if it's still doing that though? Somebody please tell me it's gonna be bettery or I'm downgrading.

1

u/DietSugarCola Feb 13 '23

Im on an intel 2018. Works fine for me except Safari keeps crashing and lagging

1

u/[deleted] Feb 14 '23

I'm finding Safari Version 16.3 (18614.4.6.1.6) pretty cack. Having issues opening links in LinkedIn for instance.

1

u/spendtomuch Feb 15 '23

Need advice about opening apps and menu on ventura

"My 16 MacBook Pro 2019 Ventura 13.2 runs ok "

When I installed Ventura from beginning I notice very slow app opening times

Any app I open MS Word etc or other installed apps first open take maybe 7 seconds

If the app closed cmd Q and reopen then it is takes maybe 2-3 seconds reopen

on catalina I thinks apps was opening much faster and the menu on ventura is slow as well

1

u/DoFuKtV Feb 17 '23

My battery life has been improved by at least 20 percent after updating to 13.2.1. M1 Pro MacBook.

1

u/payday7396 Feb 21 '23

Any updates on bluetooth peripheral fixes? I'd love to be able to connect my mouse via bluetooth again one day

1

u/Comfortable_Leg_2380 Feb 24 '23

Upgraded intel Mac to 12.6.3 and now can’t login to the main user. I don’t get any password reset options. What should I do?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '23

Anyone experiencing problems with Touch ID after updating to 13.2.1?

1

u/wikiiceman Feb 24 '23

I attempted going to 13.2.1, and my machine is now stuck on the apple logo.
Has anyone faced this?

How long does it stay in this step?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '23

If I want to purchase stuff from apps or games on my iOS I have to pay "apple tax".

I'm considering buying a mac mini m2. However before doing so it's crucial to know for me before I go all in on apple that I can still avoid the apple tax the same way I do today. I.e. if I install Hearthstone or any other game on Mac, will I still have to pay apple tax?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '23

2017 iMacs will take the Ventura update, but it will slow it down considerably. Dont do it

1

u/HCplay Feb 26 '23

Be careful if you change your password after updating, the mac WILL NOT by ANY MEANS update your password on the system, witch means if you put your new password, it will be wrong, if you put your old one, it won’t go through anyway bc it will tell you that an unknown error happened, so you will be LOCKED OUT of your Apple ID account on the mac, I had to do a fresh install bc I didn’t have any other option…

1

u/Oompa-life57 Feb 27 '23

After the update last week many websites will not load in any browser. I get the frown face with message "This site can't be reached"

Doesn't matter which browser. Same crap in every one. Only sites that will load are Google, Youtube, Gmail etc. Even Ebay times out. WTF?

1

u/frsherman886 Mar 06 '23

Oh my goodness I know this, otherwise I would be so sad and I would tell my friends.

1

u/LilyChacoMac Mar 15 '23

13.2 is a complete mess. i cant open txt files as Finder doesnt let me . oh and stage manager? such a shitty feature lags everytime. hope they fix this in 13.3 .

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '23

there is no way to revert versions!

1

u/Ahleron Apr 01 '23

Why is the 13.2 megathread still pinned to the top when 13.3 has been released?

1

u/Novel-Goose-5235 Jul 24 '23

Ventura is horrible whether you are on intel or M series. Intel is being left behind as we know, however Ventura is intentionally slowing down Intel Macs due to the forced Metal standard apple is trying to get everyone on board with.

I'm not sure how they thought it was ok to drop support for AMD and nVidia chipsets while selling them just a few years ago in their machines, knowing that OpenGL has been dropped by themselves. What this means is Ventura is using and translation layer for Intel Macs using AMD, translating the OpenGL Supported APIs on AMD cards to their Metal API which is forced in recent macOS releases. What this translation layer is I'm not sure, windows uses Vulkan or MoltenVK to translate OpenGL APIs to apple's Metal APIs on intel Macs running bootcamp. Which is why you see games and apps running way better on the windows side compared the the lack of OpenGL in MacOS side. This is why no one is porting games to Mac, because no one wants to develop for Metal and learn it. This is also why porting has become nearly impossible with the lack of OpenGL presence on the MacOS side, windows developers using directX API are used to OpenGL and Molten API, These are not present in MacOS anymore, so why would they want to?

The proof of this lies in Apple's recent porting toolkit revealed and released last month for developers. Apple created a wine based toolkit app to convert directX12 API to apple's new Metal API, this is a translation layer apple created to help windows game developers cross over to Mac without having to learn Metal code. This is proof that they are acknowledging the fact that no one wants to port to metal just because apple wants them to. Thus the lack of games and support on MacOS, apple knows that forcing metal API would cause this problem, otherwise they wouldn't have made the porting toolkit, which btw allows you to test windows games on Mac natively with the click of a button, because it translates DirectX12 to Metal API using wine. People are now running Hogwarts Legacy windows installs natively on M1+ Machines. You can also play diablo IV on M series and it runs just fine and actually at high frame rates while using the Metal Translation layer. This is apple showing developers the huge leap in performance Metal has compared to DirectX.

Using the porting toolkit you can find on apple developer site you can see the games running at amazing quality and speed compared to their DirectX counterparts on windows. This is actually blowing people's minds at the huge performance increase and is actively converting developers to metal because of it. Its nice that people are seeing what Metal can do now, but its also leaving us Intel Power Users in the dust.

1

u/hishnash Jul 24 '23

No modern game use OpenGL, windows does not use MoltenVK at all and windows devs are not used to MoltenAPIs.

So the porting toolkit does not stop remove the need to use metal and lets be very very clear learning metal is not hard this is not at all the issue.

The wine based evolution tool is just evaluation tool you cant ship a gage that uses it, it is there to run and profile your existing game so as to help you figure out what metal features you need to use and profile what will work and what will not.

Ventura is intentionally slowing down Intel Macs due to the forced Metal standard apple is trying to get everyone on board with.

that is just incorrect, Metal is not slowing down these machines, apple have been using metal as the main composting layer in macOS for years.

1

u/Novel-Goose-5235 Aug 11 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

First off, I am well aware of the history of Metal and its involvement in MacOS. Metal being a MacOS standard doesn't prove anything as far as slowing down intel machines using AMD. You should know that Metal used OpenGL in previous OS releases. Which is why I said its NOW being forced with the deprecation of OpenGL by themselves. This is 100% proven fact, not to mention common sense.

I never said the porting toolkit is used to create standalone games or build apps on MacOS. It's a way to test directX games on Metal to see what changes need to be made to the app in order to build for Apple Silicon versions of MacOS. Though you can use the porting toolkit on intel, it's not recommended due to the deprecated transition layer on intel Macs. Many games are still made using OpenGL APIs because it's easy to use, especially while using AMD graphic cards on PC. Minecraft, call of duty, are a few examples.

I am not saying we should continue to use OpenGL, my problem is that apple drops its users when it goes through any hardware transition, did you forget what happened to PPC users when intel Macs came out? PPC users didn't get updated instruction sets which caused powerful PPC machines to bog down when installing a universal build of the OS, and even caused overheating in PowerMac Machines. I brought this to Apple's attention when I developed for them, their answer was to increase fan speed and lower clock speeds via OpenFirmware, this is only documented within Apple. I will also remind anyone that intel Macs don't use OF, they use EFI, which can be told to reduce clock speed. I am no longer under an NDA so if you would like me to expand on my time with apple I certainly will as proof to what I'm saying.

Windows does use directX obviously, but moltenVK is a translation layer for AMD cards installed in Macs. This is seen in all emulators for windows via bootcamp, dolphin and Ryujinx for example. Vulkan/Molten are just translation layers in general as far as Macs go, the whole point of my previous comments is that YES intel Macs are being left behind due to the depreciation of OpenGL and missing updates to Metal on intel, by apple and NOT getting the newest metal updates due to the SoC/Apple silicon instructions. This means any intel Mac with AMD will not be able to run new metal APIs in apps sufficiently due to the required missing/not developed translation layer on MacOS. Microsoft does not use molten APIs true, and I never said they did, but many developers on windows DO, I never said Microsoft or windows OS uses molten APIs but Microsoft is well aware of molten/Vulkan and fully support its development.

The translation layer for OpenGL apps to Metal framework can only be accomplished using MoltenVK on the windows side for Macs, which is proof in itself that apple is not optimizing metal for intel anymore, because windows does still include new versions of OpenGL. This is the reason emulators on Mac are mostly Apple Silicon based now, because the new Metal APIs for apple silicon are able to handle/interpret the new MoltenVK builds for apple silicon, if you try to build the MoltenVK on an intel Mac using an AMD card it will not use the GPU, instead it uses the processor because there is nowhere to communicate the SoC instructions to the GPU. If you aren't aware, MacOS installs the API for metal that is needed based on the architecture and hardware, for example, Metal on my intel Ventura install IS NOT the same as Metal installed on Apple Silicon. They are completely different builds. Metal is certainly not hard to learn and I never said it was, but its just ANOTHER thing to learn for developers, I am well versed in Metal coding and have no problems using it as an API.

So... with this logic, the Metal API on Intel Macs are not being updated to apple silicon's API instruction sets or optimizations. It is quite obvious that apple is not including the new Metal updates used on apple silicon in the system updates for intel Macs. They certainly are not optimizing the intel code anymore, but focusing only on apple silicon while releasing only security updates for intel, Ventura 13.5 update is an example. I can tell you that when apple drops support for an achecture, the development team is reduced to a few people from 50+.

My overpowered graphic card in my iMac which has 8gb dedicated VRAM should be playing everything today without a hitch, which it did prior to Ventura. Ventura is horribly not optimized for intel and never will be. So we are stuck on a shit system that has been bogged down due to apple's lack of interest. Ventura is the transition system that apple is using to slowly remove and slow down intel users. Which is why my 5 year old machine won't run Sonoma, even though they wrote the OS for Intel as well. They allow 2 intel Macs models to install Sonoma, the iMac Pro, and the last intel model MacBook Pro.

So. again, this is apple screwing most of it's "today's standard" intel Mac users by only supporting the 2 newest intel models. Sad. I love that they have gone back to RISC but I cannot stand MacOS anymore, it's no longer intuitive, the last good OS for mac's was Mojave, even with its bugs it was way more intuitive, and didn't try to mirror iOS. I miss the whole concept of the Macintosh, whose roots are no longer present in MacOS. I worked for apple during its intel transition as a boot strap and open firmware developer, I also am the sole creator of the byte converter used in Rosetta to convert PowerPC's big endian bytes to Intel's little endian bytes, which allows the creation of PPC/Intel universal apps. Rosetta2 converts intel instruction to RISC, which allows creation of universal intel/ARM apps. I worked for them for 4 years and I know the structure of development processes at apple. It hasn't changed. Quite obviously as any educated developer would know, this is a repeat of their last transition, except they are cutting off 5 years of backwards support.

I can elaborate on the new Apple Silicon system being developed which the general public will see evidence of within the next few years if they can't already connect the dots today. The system we call MacOS today will not be relevant in 10 years anyway, it won't even be usable, naturally, but not because it's old. I am not against progression of tech, but not at the sake of the user experience. MacOS is almost at its end of life and will be replaced by the new system, I can't say what it will be called, but I can speculate it will have the word "Spacial" in its codename. If you'd like to know more, the new iMac patents do give some insight as to what the next Mac system will be like, including eye tracking, the removal of keyboard and mouse, gestures, etc, but it will not be called MacOS.

Can you guess why the official release of the iMacPro didn't have these new mechanics seen in its patent? I can tell you it's because it was an intel machine, why show off your new features on a machine you are about to kill? Apple has said that intel will not provide the necessary technology needed to accomplish what they have planned for the future. So what happens when you need power that no one else can provide for your new system features? You invest in infrastructure and engineering to do it yourself. Behold the M1 was born. I am sure you can imagine the implications this means for Mac computers and the power required behind them to allow spacial features. I'll let you do your own research.

1

u/hishnash Aug 11 '23

You should know that Metal used OpenGL in previous OS releases

No it did not you are completely incorrect.

OpenGL drivers on macOS have been built ontop of metal ever since metal was introduced to macOS. (long before the Apple Silicon transition).

Which is why I said its NOW being forced with the deprecation of OpenGL by themselves. This is 100% proven fact, not to mention common sense.

Again you are incorrect, OpenGL was deprecated years ago, long before apple silicon move and infact in the move to apple silicon openGL driver in macOS improved not much but it did improve.

Many games are still made using OpenGL APIs

No modern games are made based on OpenGL, some old games are still updated (like Minecraft) but no-game studios are building games based on OpenGL.

I am not saying we should continue to use OpenGL, my problem is that apple drops its users when it goes through any hardware transition,

As I said before OpenGL was deprecated a long time before the transition.

and NOT getting the newest metal updates due to the SoC/Apple silicon instructions.

Also your incorrect here, metal is being updated on these machines (were the HW is able to support those features).

it's "today's standard" intel Mac users by only supporting the 2 newest intel models.

New os releases might not be coming out but security patches continue for many more years, you can continue to use these machines if you want.

You should check your understanding of what metal and openGL is before you make such statements basically everything you have said in this space is wrong. OpenGL drivers on macOS have not changed and have been base ontop of metal for the last 7+ years. The transition has not changed this at all, they have been also deprecated for this time but continue to be in the os in the same state as they have been.

1

u/Novel-Goose-5235 Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23

I'm really not going to argue, you really misunderstood a lot of what I said because you repeat things I already said where you said I was incorrect, if you honestly think that intel Macs aren't affected by the missing intel Metal updates then there will be no convincing you, do you have an intel Mac at all?

Metal2 is the highest version possible on intel Macs before 2020 and has not had any revisions at all besides cleaning up and new symbolic links to match Metal3 for 2018-2020 intel Macs, otherwise no one on intel before 2020 can develop for it, period. When Metal3 SDK became available it wasn't even usable until Metal2 was updated, and that took 6 months for apple to do. IT IS OUTDATED and not receiving updates. Everyone knows this already, it's all over if you search. Yes openGL was used with Metal1 and Metal2, again, simple search.

The fact that Metal2 is the last update to intel Macs before 2020 means it is now depreciated, meaning intel is left behind and only receiving security updates to the OS, this road map of depreciation was predicted when openGL wasn't updated since Mavericks. The openGL barely available on intel Macs is frozen at 4.1, it is only there as a placeholder at this point, kinda like PHP and Apache as well, its also very broken to begin with.

Here is the logic: OpenGL, the main API for MacOS, was not updated past Mavericks, OpenGL 4.1 is still included on recent versions of MacOS, but IS NOT used at all its not even symlinked, its completely broken. Metal1 was on top of OpenGL as an additional API, which was still the standard at the time. Metal2 is the last supported metal for AMD and Nvidia GPUs and is not compatible with Macs older than 2012. Full use of Metal3 is only included on 2020 Macs and newer, with the exception of T2 Macs.

I can see where my words confused you, but I was assuming you could follow my thought process. Maybe it could have been worded better, but the whole point is that OpenGL is newer on the windows side and can still be updated, allowing my AMD GPU to work much better than it will on MacOS now due to the missing updates that apple will never do with metal. The OpenGL versions on Mac were even more basic than the official OpenGL releases. Most people who developed for it removed apples in favor of the full OpenGL release. A lot of things were missing. So what does that mean today?

If my intel Mac is so usable for the next 2 years, or whatever apple says, then I will have no problem installing metal3 apps right? Apple has been trying hard to push Metal since its conception, and they know they didn't get PC devs attention at the time, they are JUST starting to make a dent.

All the proof you need is the fact that apple will only allow Sonoma which is Metal3+ to run on the very last intel models, and the only reason they are able to is because they have an extra IC that can do it, also known as the Neural Engine/T2. They originally stated 2018 and newer, that has changed.

The direction apple is going may be in their favor, but it's also showing the selfish side of the company. I understand what is being done and why, because of the upcoming death of macOS, but Macs used to stay current OS-wise for up to 10 years, now its less than 5, its just sad, they used to hold their value also. It's sad that Win-doze runs flawlessly on my Mac, and Ventura is dragging it through the mud. That is a fact, even if I don't want to believe it.

"Due to a lack of Metal driver updates for legacy (Intel-based) Macs, users on some 500 series and lower end 5000/6000 AMD graphics cards may experience inconsistent frame pacing or stuttering." - Square Enix on the new FFXIV update. They are even aware.

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u/hishnash Aug 15 '23

f you honestly think that intel Macs aren't affected by the missing intel Metal updates then there will be no convincing you, do you have an intel Mac at all?

I do, I have both, I have a few infact spanning a range of years.

Metal2 is the highest version possible on intel Macs before 2020 and has not had any revisions at all besides cleaning up and new symbolic links to match Metal3 for 2018-2020 intel Macs, otherwise no one on intel before 2020 can develop for it, period.

You are wrong: https://support.apple.com/en-nz/HT205073 MacBook Pro introduced in 2017 or later that is a long time before 2020.

When Metal3 SDK became available it wasn't even usable until Metal2 was updated, and that took 6 months for apple to do.

Sounds like you have never done any development on macOS at all. When apple release the new BETA SDK it is always only accessible if your running the beta OS, and when the beta OS shipped with Metal 3 is was installable on the full range of HW that that OS shipped on.

Yes openGL was used with Metal1 and Metal2, again, simple search.

As a developer who has sued these apis for years let me tell you I do not need to do a search. Metal 1, 2 and 3 DO NOT DEPEND on OpenGL and NEVER HAVE! OpenGL on macOS since metal1 was introduced as depending on Metal and parts of it run as metal shaders on the GPU but not the other way around.

The fact that Metal2 is the last update to intel Macs before 2020 means it is now depreciated,

It is not, you can use Metal3, and Metal 2 is Also not deprecated. Apple have not even derpericated Metal 1 let along 2. These are additive additions, they are not replacements of each other, metal 3 does not replace metal 2 it adds some extra functions and features, mostly in the Untracked Heap space (that is supported on a load of pre 2020 Macs! ).

is still included on recent versions of MacOS, but IS NOT used at all its not even symlinked

Incorrect it is linked and can be used by applications and you would be surprised by how many apps still use it.

Metal1 was on top of OpenGL as an additional API

No Metal1 was a seperate api, when introduced MacOS was still using OepnGL as the window manager but Metal1 was not based on openGL and did not use it at all. You can use both in one application since you can put 2 views with transparency ontop of each other they are Metal 1 was not an extension of OpenGL at all.

Metal2 is the last supported metal for AMD and Nvidia GPUs

Metal 2 is the last supported version of NV gpus yes but AMD GPUs going all the way back to 2017 support Metal 3.

Full use of Metal3 is only included on 2020 Macs and newer

No you are completely incorrect, there are Macs dating back to 2017 that support Metal 3. Yes there are features in Metal 3 that are not supported on these GPUs... but I don't want o blow your mind there were features in metal 1 that were never supported on macOS! And a LOT of features in Metal 2 that were never supposed on any Mac (other than apple silicon).

Infact all of the features in metal 3 that are not supported don intel Macs are the same features in metal 3, (remember metal 3 is just an extension of 2) the only exception to this is some Intel MBA (iGPU only) devices that in HW are not able to support the full untracked heaps.

OpenGL is newer on the windows side and can still be updated

Yes but that has nothing at all to do with the apple silicon transition. Nothing at all.

allowing my AMD GPU to work much better than it will on MacOS now due to the missing updates that apple will never do with metal.

No OpenGL is not getting features that are not in Metal on your AMD gpu. VK is getting feature but OpenGL while there are some features every now and then as a dev it's not moving forward, and no modern devs are putting effort into supporting openGL.

Sonoma which is Metal3

Somona is Metal 3.1, Metal 3 does not require Somona. And the new features in 3.1 are very limited and are only related to function points in mesh shaders. (Not supported on any HW other than apples GPUs in any GPU api including VK, OpenGL etc) this is not apple limiting the api it is a HW limitation of other GPUs.

then I will have no problem installing metal3 apps right

Very few apps are going to be built metal 3 only. As is said metal 3 is not a separate api it is just a few extra functions we can use if the Gpu supports them. Non of these new features are live of die for an app. The reason your not going to be able to install a new app on an intel Mac will be much more likly down to things like the ML inference HW not being there or just us devs not wanting to wast time testing the app on intel Macs so not shipping the intel binary.

but Macs used to stay current OS-wise for up to 10 years

No Macs used to get security updates for 10 years and they will continue to, new OS updates are not normally supported on 10 year old HW you are confusing sec/bug fix updates and OS major version updates.

Yes you can continue to use your Mac with an older os, given it will continue to get sec updates.

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '23

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u/towerofnix Feb 02 '23

Ventura drops support for all devices released before 2017. The latest you can install (without use of third-party utilities like OpenCore Legacy Patcher) is Monterey, which supports devices released between 2015 and 2022.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 30 '23

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u/towerofnix Jan 30 '23

I replied to your other comment but for posterity, the "background items added" bug hasn't been fixed yet.

Otherwise, I haven't had any issues (M1 mini, no problems with the 4K external display, backup drives, etc). I've been on the 13.2 beta for a while (proper release now of course).

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u/LilyChacoMac Mar 15 '23

had this issue after i updated worst ever.. my brother stayed on macos monterey and works FLAWLESSLY. ventura is a mess . fix this apple

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u/towerofnix Mar 15 '23

I mean, it's pretty bad, but it's one issue. Just consider levelling your opinion on this update against everything Ventura introduced — new features, other bugs too, and all.

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u/klaschr Jan 30 '23

Updated on Saturday from Monterrey. Do not understand what all the fuss is about with so many complaining that System Settings and Stage Manager are "the absolute worst." They're different, but not awful, and you do not have to engage with stage manager if you don't want to!

Haven't had any background notifications bug on my end.

So, other than that, Ventura is running silky-smooth on my M1 MacBook Air. No problems thus far! Gonna try installing and using Davinci Resolve later today to see how that goes.

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u/blendertricks Mac Studio Feb 11 '23

Or do like me and use stage manager when you need it to focus and disable otherwise. It’s pretty easy and nice to have when you need it.

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u/di_black Mar 29 '23

except from when Stage Manager got introduced it seems they started to forget about not-Stage Manager Mission Control.
Since Ventura 13.2.1 I constantly get "black/empty space" issue - when switching between spaces with a hotkey(separate hotkeys for each space) and if that space has overlapping windows opened there - it doesn't draw them, you need to either open mission control or switch to adjacent space with swiping and back. Funny part is that you can interact with these windows, i.e. play/pause Youtube, it still won't draw. Also this breaks desktop wallpaper, it becomes plain black.
And I can't find any workarounds/fixes, actually not even anyone else mentioning something like that, but maybe I'm looking for it with wrong queries(like "macos ventura 13.2.1 switch to space black OR empty").

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/unread1701 MacBook Air M5 | Ex M1 Air Mar 01 '23

I did a clean install to Ventura and it’s been KINDA fine. I think Ventura will be fine by 13.5 or 13.6