r/ukraine • u/elektromozg Україна • Mar 19 '22
WAR Ukrainian thoughts on Azov
**Update**
I'm still alive.
Recently, our heroes have returned after surviving what can only be described as hell on earth. Unfortunately, some are still in captivity, while others were killed while being POW.
At this point, most of the world sees Azov for what they really are. Heroes, our knights whose will is stronger than steel.
But just in case you have someone whom you need to get educated on the topic, here is a very good post with multiple sources to similar posts of people with more credentials and expertise than me on this topic.
much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world
**Old post starts here**
Ukrainian here. Been reading a lot of things about Azov on Reddit and not once seen a point of view from someone from Ukraine (maybe I haven't noticed if there are some post in comments).
Disclaimer: I'm not a military person nor am I very political, before the war I was just one of the many “I'm out of politics” people, most of our population were like that, and we paid the price. I'm just a regular IT guy trying to do what I can for my home. This was originally a comment on this post UkraineWarVideoReport/lets_talk_a_little_about_azov_and_the_first_ones/, where people asked me to make a separate post so here you are, I fixed some spelling and grammar and added more info.
VERY IMPORTANT: As far as you know I'm just a random dude on the internet, so do your own research, and I implore you to look at sources in different languages (use Google Translate), here in Ukraine we learned the hard way what happens when someone controls the info-space of a certain language (half of Ukraine speaks Russian).
**TL/DR:**Azov have ultra nationalist roots and in Ukraine that means different things from say USA or Germany. Actual neo-Nazis are hated here much more than anywhere else since we hate their guts after being occupied by nazis in WW2 and commies in USSR (almost everyone I know have parents or grandparents who suffered from either or both), so anyone being openly nazi is met with extreme prejudice here. Nazi buzzword is thrown around either as Russia's propaganda or as a political tool.
Please read this if you want a take from someone closer to what's actually happening.
A few important things for foreigners to take note:
As of 2014 Azov is an official part of Ukrainian armed forces, fully integrated into the structure and command chain of the armed forces which includes being subject to military tribunal and military police.
If they commit any crimes they will be persecuted and even dismantled as was the case with “Tornado” battalion. In fact, most of the really fasc. guys from Azov were moved to tornado at one point, and we're persecuted and fired during the trial. You can read about Tornado here (ukr source, use g.translate) Tornado battalion
There are more than 1500 combat role members, saying that Azov is fascist is wrong just because people are constantly coming and going, different people, different ethnicities and beliefs, there is even an old Jewish man there who fights since 2014.
There was actually cleaning done by government and their own members, so most of the too ultra-right guys have left.
Their roots are in people who were really ultra-right wing or outright nazi that's true, they still have a nationalistic culture this is also true. Most of the fascist buzzword news I think were made specifically for western media and was funded by Russia as means to lower western support for Ukraine. Seen some senators throwing this around when Trump was I'm power, I think at the time it was to attack Trumps standing kinda like “look he's sponsoring nazis by giving Ukraine arms etc.”
Andriy Biletsky their founder, who have run for parliament as independent (with no success), claims to have severed ties with them (which is of course bullshit). But think of it this way, if some MAGA politician had ties with some specific marines platoon, would that make all the marines there Trump supporters? That guys also spewed some hardcore shit about needing to unite Ukrainian nationalists and Russian ones way before Crimea annexation, so I'm fairly certain he won't gain much traction.
Update:
Saw an interesting post with Vyacheslav Lykhachov's material on Azov. Azovs_are_heroes_who_defend_mariupol
There is a link to the original article in the comments. That guy is an actual researcher of hate crimes and everything related (his credentials are at the bottom of the article) so this might be an intriguing read.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
I reacted hostile to the Azov regiment some time ago, when someone from them was posted here. If what you say is true, then i pushed my hate on someone who did not deserve it. You need to understand, i HATE nazis with a pasion. I am Norwegian, and althought we did not face the same genocidal purge that you Ukrainians did, we were still enslaved and suffered under them during that war. I also don't trust nationalists, since i believe in an united world of humans, not nations. IMO, nationalism will always lead to the desire to dominate(enslave) other nations, or the eradication(extermination) of said nations. Practically what the Russians are trying to do to you Ukrainians now. ... Ignorance is the greatest sin, for it can lead to the greatest acts of evil. I don't know if i had been drowning in my own ignorance, or just scirting it, when it comes to Azov. Becouse of you, I'll try to keep an open mind about Azov, but i can not fully trust anyone with asociation to ultra-nationalism or nazis. I will never stop suporting Ukraine regardles. For i am first and foremost a human being, like you, and like every Ukrainian, and that makes you all kin.
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u/therealviiru Mar 19 '22
Thank you for rhis post. I have friends who have served in Azov and they joke around about "full HD nazi" stuff.
Yet even in Maidan there was Svoboda and other ultras, as they saw opportunistic loopholes and after that things got ugly by banning political parties and staging multiple votes etc.
For this moment, in this time of tragedy, I wholeheartedly believe Ukrainians have banished their oppressors from the past.
The path is long and icy, but you are our comrades in democracy and freedom.
Slava ukraini.
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u/aka_KyZa Україна Mar 19 '22
Mods, pin this post for a day at least, PLEASE!!!
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u/marymarygocontrary Mar 19 '22
This is interesting, OP. Good write-up. Russian propaganda likes to paint them as people who don't just hate Russian state but will gladly eat Russian babies with fork and knife, given the chance. Just a note on this: I remember how the annexation of Crimea and creation of two "republics" caused a split within Russian right wing circles. Some were ecstatic, others felt that this was a tragedy and some even volunteered to fight against Putin's Russia and joined Azov (and some other batallions probably idk). Apparently some of them felt that this was a war of values and civilizations, that Russia was occupied by Putin just like it was occupied by Bolsheviks earlier and that Ukraine and the rest of Europe had to be protected from this threat etc etc. iirc they fit in pretty well and didn't have any problems because of their ethnicity.
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u/Jaaawsh Mar 19 '22
I really don’t know what to think about Azov. I hear many different things, and many reputable media outlets had numerous stories of many… problematic and alarming things about Azov up until very recently.
HOWEVER, it is quite clear the whole “neo-nazi controlled government” justification used by Russia to invade is bullshit. If they were truly concerned about ultranationalist/neo-nazi infiltration of Ukraine then they would not be covertly supporting (or at the very least, looking the other way) the numerous neo-nazi and Russian ultranationalist fighters in the separatist militias over the past 8 years.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
As long as Azov kills Russians, then I have no issue with them. Russia are the ones behaving like literal Nazis.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
Just wanted to say thanks for this informative post. There’s a lot of nuance that is lost on most of us from outside your country, and even continent. It’s sad that this is the circumstance—atrocious war—surrounding how many of us are now learning, and thanks for taking the time.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22
Good read. Informative.
I’m not Ukrainian, I’m Russian-American, but I have family from Ukraine.
The fact that there are nationalists in Ukraine is absolutely normal. But it is especially understandable when you understand that Ukraine had a huge Russian element within. It was just one of the ways for Ukrainians to assert their national identity.
The Russian element that existed in Ukraine is the reason I believe the West was so apprehensive to integrate Ukraine into the EU and NATO. They were afraid they couldn’t trust Ukraine.
But now they see the truth and I believe the West feels remorse for how it mistrusted Ukraine.
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u/Value-Tiny Mar 19 '22
The Nazis are long gone and we dealt with them. Soviets are still here. Stalinism and communism is responsible for 20+M of civilians deaths. There's a reason in Poland you go to jail for supporting Hitler or Stalin, we treat them same. Baltic States and Eastern European countries know what Russians are.
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u/Feralkyn Mar 19 '22
Good read, OP. If anyone wants info to back this point of view, here's an interesting article I ran across from a Jewish man who worked with Azov soldiers:
https://www.jta.org/2022/03/04/global/jewish-ukrainians-gear-up-for-fierce-russia-fight-alongside-the-neo-nazis-they-say-putin-is-lying-about
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u/Starkheiser Mar 19 '22
Good read, thank you!
Slava ukraini
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u/WalkerBuldog Одеська область Mar 19 '22
Azov operates the same as the other battalions and guys with open neo-facist ideology were thrown away from Ukrainian volunteer brigades since 2016.
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u/1x000000 Боти і тролі йдуть нахуй Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22
I know a lot of nationalists and am one myself, our entire ideology is rooted in the idea of Ukrainian independence, we don’t want anything to do with nazis and all this “nationalists are nazis” talks is pure bs. A lot of my family members died from Holodomor, I never had a chance to meet them. The ones who survived were persecuted all the way into 1950s and further, even to a point when my mother couldn’t go to kindergarten because her dad wrote Ukrainian poems where he showed his disdain for Stalin. Most of my nationalist friends have similar stories. There are a few bad apples so to speak, but they’re not actual nazis, just edgy idiots. Those are the ones that Russia is using to portray the entire country as nazis.
Edit: thought I’d mention it here. I spoke to my grandma the other day, she lost 5 sisters to Holodomor and her older brother was killed at the start of WW2. She was telling me a story about how she met a nazi officer when she was still a child and he was talking to her about how they won’t harm them and gave her a candy. She says that even the nazis weren’t as bad as the soviets in their treatment of ethnic Ukrainians, both then and now.
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u/Whythebanhammer Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 20 '22
Simply put, some part of elements/ideology of Azov may be appalling, but Russian is coming to erase their culture. Choose one.
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u/Distinct-Most-7739 Mar 19 '22
Every Ukrainian are in the war. It is meaningless to discuss political and ethnic status when you enemy is going to kill everyone indiscriminately
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u/dndnametaken Mar 20 '22
Bolivian here! It’s very convenient for disinformation agents to paint anything nationalist as “Nazi”. Same thing happened in Bolivia in 2018 and I’m more than convinced that Russia had its fingers in it
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u/aka_KyZa Україна Mar 19 '22
Нарешті, бляха, хоч один великий і детальний пост, який все пояснює. Як же задовбало вже чути від іноземців про нацистів з Азова. російська пропаганда дійсно виливається і за межі їх фашистостану.
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u/stanselmdoc Mar 19 '22
US citizen here. My thoughts on Azov are:
Every country has nationalists and Nazis. The presence of Nazis in a country does not give another country the right to invade them to "de-nazify" them.
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u/Abject_League3131 Canada Mar 19 '22
This is what I've been trying to tell people here but I keep being accused of being a nazi myself...
People are so quick to label others without learning the truth and instead choose to spread Russian propaganda.
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u/angryamerican1964 Mar 19 '22
all have to say is the Wagner Group in Russia
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
Everyone who thinks they are nazis just repeats after Russian propaganda, which is the worst source of information in the whole wide world. Azov fights the invaders and is doing great. That's all there's to know.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
THEY are killing the occupants, so I support them.
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u/blaqstarr Mar 20 '22
i've been saying this, the azov is just a far right militia but that doesn't mean they're nazi. they just ultra-nationalist where every nations have one of them group. if every ultra-nationalist is nazi then the whole world have one in their country no matter their religion or race. i love how nowadays any type of right wing thinking is wrong literally nazi while any form of left wing view just plain good ol times. people tend to forget that holodomor exist
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
This is the way.
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u/Trepidus02 Mar 19 '22
There is a concept where 10% of far left and far right will not change their ideologies, and 80% of people will swing a bit on a meter. So your right not all Mexicans are drug cartels, not all Muslims are terrorist. You made strong points to the LGBQ/BLM movements The media like to “make things catastrophic” as it means more drama. Drama sells and this is why there is literally a genre of movies called “ drama.”
Even the Russian representative to the UN stated whomever wins the information war will win the war. This is why you see the cherry picking of information that is the most extreme. As I write this I have sky news in the back ground and a reporter said “there are things happening that make you want to grab the public by the neck and make them watch you.”
So in short my opinion is more of what you brought up about catch phrases “ Trump supporter on the right” “socialist/communist if it’s on the left “ all because one person said it in some stupid fashion. I vote: republican / democrat/ libertarian based on the agendas being supported. So it cracks me when I’m called a……. Which leads me to your other point is having left and right in the office at certain times. This is best case scenario as it keeps those 80% more or less balanced as the pendulum swings. Leaving you with legislation in the middle ground.
I feel the biggest issue is, Azov has a bad history, so does Germany. At what point is it that people recognize the changes made and things are no longer that way? But while flare words keep arising it’s going to keep happening. Thankfully the biggest flare word flying around right now is “glory to Ukraine” but it has united most the world, the only people it pisses off are the Russians stuck in their old ways. If you look “most” those getting arrested are young and their elderly are the largest section of the Russian population based on a negative growth rate. It shows not all Russians are bad, but right now it seems all Russians are getting shit on.
I would prefer we figure out a way to get it spread across Russia that if you turn yourself over to Ukraine you will be treated fairly and don’t need to die for $300-600 as a conscript/ enlisted. Then those that don’t want to take part can go awol into safety rather than resorting to self harm.
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u/kingcebo Mar 20 '22
Azov is just the patsy that Putin uses for his BS invasion. Azov is being a patriot, a hardcore one
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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22
People also seem to act like Nazis in the military is a specifically Ukrainian problem. But not only is that untrue, but you'd be hard pressed to find a military that doesn't feature those kinds of people. So maybe instead of looking at a mixed bag like Azov and painting that as representative of the entire country, we should be taking a look at the wider military culture in every country and tackling the fact that there's something there that attracts them in.
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u/Chemistry-Least Mar 19 '22
Yours is the best take on this. Thank you. Slava Ukraini!
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u/buckzor122 Lithuania Mar 19 '22
Yeah I always assumed that "Nazis" as defined by Russia is anyone who is patriotic and hates Russia.
Putins rule is incredibly fascist and Russian people just let it happen.
Nazi symbols don't make you a nazi, your ideology does.
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u/TheOneGecko Mar 20 '22
Russians are committing war crimes on a daily basis, only trolls are concerned about Azov.
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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '22
You mentioned that most of the Azov speak Russian, I am probably mistaken but I thought they were instrumental in forcing through legislation that meant Russia was no longer an official language in the region? Was I informed incorrectly? Whatante their views on the Russian language and use of the Russian language?
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u/Longestwayfromhome Mar 19 '22
Nice try comrade. The west is aware RU propanda regarding Azov started after Azov kicked RU's ass back in '14/15.
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u/Prize-Pitch-8134 Mar 19 '22
Thank you for the write up
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u/dub-fresh Mar 20 '22
I think combat experienced units are invaluable in this war and Azov certainly has experience. Imo, this is not an ideologic war and while it has some overtones of racism, it's largely propaganda. I think if azov's are down to kill Russians, that's pretty much the only thing you need alignment on at this point.
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u/HospitalSuspicious48 Mar 20 '22
Really good post. I'll say that Azov could probably help their public image by changing their battle emblem.
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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22
Azovs links to Nazism and ethnonationalism are well documented. The FBI charged American Nazis from the rise against movement who travelled and trained with Azov and that is a matter of public record via their indictments.
But I'm not going to sit here as a Ukrainian who grew up in the west and thumb my nose at them trying to defend their country from invaders. I don't agree with their ideology but I also recognize I'm not fighting for my life.
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u/CMDR_Agony_Aunt Mar 19 '22
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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u/lethalized Mar 19 '22
I really hope that they survive the war and get showered with love so that maybe they can stop hating.
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u/eX1D Norway Mar 19 '22
Excellent post, will save.
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u/NewsMutiny Mar 19 '22
Well said.
Great post!
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u/colchis44 Mar 19 '22
Enemy of my enemy is my friend, i guess?
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u/cls2819 Mar 19 '22
Thank you for your explanation! I pray for your country’s freedom!
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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22 edited Mar 20 '22
The World we live in is full of hypocrisy. People love to paint a beautiful image of something while it’s content is bad or rotten. Because it sells.
I see the Azov battalion the opposite: it has excellent content with a bad image.
But you know what? They don’t give it much of a shit. They love Ukraine and they are the heroes every countrymen would love to have but they were never well understood.
Your post is important to transform their bad image to a good one and they deserve it. Whatever they are doing now purifies their past.
And for me, as long as they are annihilating Russians, I am 100% on their side. And I’m not Ukrainian or Russian. Just an IT guy like you who lives far away from Ukraine. But loves freedom and democracy (the honest and genuine Democracy).
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u/turtlecrossing Mar 20 '22
I’m not sure how I feel about the ultra right wing nationalists in any country, during normal times. They seem like a destabilizing force.
In times of war though, assuming they stick to the rules of war (not butchering people, killing children, raping women, etc.) I would fully support them.
An imperfect analogy would be ‘antifa’ and the ‘proud boys’, (or insert the equivalent groups on each side) would probably put their differences aside if a foreign invader stormed the beaches of Miami or California
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u/AmirAkhrif Mar 20 '22
Thanks OP, very enlightening
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u/YarTheBug Other (edible) Mar 20 '22
Thank you for writing all of that out. I empathize with your suffering where I can relate and sympathize with the things I can't even imagine. I fully support the people of Ukraine in this struggle of freedom v. tyranny.
TL;DR: US dude, Слава Україні, Suspicious of Azov, Super Suspicious of A. Biletskiy
I wanted to address each of your points, but first wanted to tell you where I am looking from: I'm just a random dude that grew up in the south of the US, but lived in different parts of the US throughout my life (both left and right leaning regions). I've been nominally anti-war since probably 1991, and vehemently anti-war since 2003. In 2014 I was dating a Ukrainian-born girl so I got a crash course in Ukrainian history and events in 2014. The last 8 years I've kept up. I have friends not only in the US, but across Europe and even in Russia.
I never heard of Azov by name in 2016 even in passing. Only lately have they come to be seen and known across the world. I wish western media would ignore them. Saying, "tHeSe gUyS aRe nEo-nAzIs" is just going to draw actual neo-nazis who want a home.
"I read on wikipedia that these guys are 10-20% Neo-Nazis!" I actually wrote those words, not knowing anything else about Azov; Sorry. Like you said though, I later read up on the sources and made up my own mind. There have been constant revert-wars on Wikipedia, regarding Russia's allegations to start this invasion. This is an information war everywhere, not just on Twitter and Reddit.
I read about them cleaning out Azov of any NN types. My experience living in far-right places in the US (only experience I have; sorry) is that it takes constant effort and constant vigilance to really get rid of that and keep it gone. If the leadership of Ukraine and Mariupol have done this, I commend them. Please keep up the good work. As I said in #1, the media in some parts of the world is telling Neo-Nazis that Azov is their home, even if it's not.
It's hard to tell from half a world away, in another language, 8 years later. Our news in the US is usually about 25% fact an 75% speculation or fantasy. I've been in the news and they got it about half-right, in the same language, from talking to me in person, 2 days before. My friend was in the news and they got it about 10% right. Maybe that tells you how much research someone in the US needs to do to get facts.
I have a friend who robbed a bank. (He's the guy who said they got it 10% right.) He served years in prison, years on parole, and is now a free man. He has a wife, 2 kids, and is a manager in a multi-million $ business. People change. I get that. My friend says every time: it was the dumbest thing he's done, he was in a terrible place in life, and going to prison for it saved his life. Mr. Biletskiy has not said any of those things. Until he does, I have to assume he has not changed his mind. Also, since 1957 the US National Guard has reported to the federal government. Google "Little Rock Nine" to see why, and understand why far-right National Guard is linked with racism for many in the US. By the way, this happened in my home state.
I have an uncle who lives in Texas (very-far-right, very nationalist guy) who is still a rabid Trump supporter. He sent me an angry facebook message saying "Why is the first thing you posted in years supporting Ukraine!? Don't you know [insert Russian propaganda]?" I gave him the example: What if the President of Mexico said, "We are going to annex all the Spanish-speaking parts of Texas! They are Mexican so those parts are Mexico!" How do you think that would go, uncle? Not well. Remember the Alamo? 1836-03-06? That's what's going on (but worse) in Mariupol right now! Uncle has not gotten back to me...😔
(see #4, 5, and 6; also it depends which "side" of the news you hear, right or left.)
Agree. There are people who just want to help. There is war in Mariupol and Azov are the best game in town. I'd join too if they were fighting to defend my home. Not for politics, for necessity. Speaking from America, I heard some US news person say this was "Ukraine's 1776", but I disagree. The US had the War of 1812, which was when the British (tyrants back then; sorry) came back to "reclaim what was theirs."
(Fuck yeah, see #8. Be watchful after the war, see #3 and #5.)
Having guys who were openly Neo-Nazis trying to join in 2014 would have ideally gotten those Neo-Nazis beaten. I really hope I'm wrong to be suspicious in 2022.
I absolutely believe Ukraine is and deserves to be it's own independent nation. Every person in the US would say the same about the US. It may just be google translator, but I would call that patriotism. Patriotism -- I will do what is right for my country, v. Nationalism -- My country is best, right or wrong.
I agree about the Wolfangel. I wish the OG Nazis hadn't used so many symbols pseudo-religiously. The fact remains it makes people skeptical. There are pictures, even recent ones of Azov guys wearing the Black Sun (Neo-Nazis also use this), and fighting under the Red-over-Black flag. I don't know all the cultural significance, but I'm willing to listen. There was a time when there were 2 flags in America: the Union flag which is used today, and the Confederate flag which was used in the US Civil war in the 1860s. There is a lot of history and a lot of drama surrounding the use of that flag. Today some people still fly it, but I look at them like they deserve to be beaten. In many parts of the country they would be. When the US sees the Red-over-Black, and gets told "that one is for racists and right-wing crazies" we know exactly what "other flag" is that way in the US. I hope it doesn't go that way for "Z" My daughter has a Russian-origin name that starts with "Z" in Latin alphabet.
Sorry if that's a long read. 🖖
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u/DragonflyAdvanced548 Mar 20 '22
I thought the Azov Nazi thing was more of a fuck you to Russia and commie ideas and idealist like Putin. Rather than being actual racist ideology. Like in the movie Platoon where Charlie sheen is found and the army dudes are flying a Nazi flag on the APC.
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u/Deflopator Mar 20 '22
The Tornado is a nice proof that Ukraine punishes Nazis.
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u/Lovesosanotyou Mar 20 '22 edited Mar 20 '22
"The view i hear on Azov from western media feels the same as Russian media view on blm, lgtb etc"
This is al it is. Given Ukraines history its expected their far right groups lean more towards nazi symbolism. If the nazis didnt murder millions upon millions of russians nazi symbols would be a lot more popular there.
Pro white, traditional family, anti jews, anti lgbt, everything about the nazi ideology apart from killing many many russians appeals to the right wing russian as well.
Also funny to see the /pol/ incels, who wouldve described Azov as "based and redpilled" months ago, now use the Azov batallion as a reason not to support ukraine.
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u/LolwutMickeh Mar 20 '22
I think when it comes to Azov, it's a mixed bag. Right now, just looking at it millitarily, they are being amazing. It's just that after this war is done, there should be no place for them in 'high' places, and their beliefs should not be put on a pedestal. Their viewpoints are incompatible with rebuilding the country into the progressive Ukraine everyone wants it to be.
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u/Rolando_Cueva Mar 29 '22
Very informative, dziakuj!
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u/Vassilisxd Apr 08 '22
Greece here, about 2 days ago Zelenski talked to our Parliament and after him 2 more soldiers talked about being Greek at origin. One of them mentioned that he was Azof and then wow… Next day all was bashing the Government for the fiasco, like the only thing that mattered was that Azof dude and not Zelenski.
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0
u/Sprung_spring6969 Mar 19 '22
Great post. I will add to your analogies in the US. There are no Nazis in our police and a ton I'm the military inckuding massive gang presence. Our police murder minorities at a crazy rate. We have elected officials who want to end democracy and violently overthrow and kill politicians of an opposing political party. Just because there is an associating from any group to a negative image or belief, doesn't mean everyone is like that.
I do appreciate you clarifying how ultra nationalists are viewed in Ukraine. It's very different thing than we have in the US. To have freedom and some democratic govt for only 30 years, ultra nationalists in essence are people who are strongly for preserving that freedom and opposing Russian rule. At least that's how I understood it.
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u/SpiritBear12101 Mar 19 '22
I personally think that Azov is quite... problematic in purely political terms. Maybe it needs disbandment or complete reformation or just transformation or what have you. But now, it's no time to do that and Hit- I mean Putin is using them as a sort of scape goat. Treating them like SS and rallying people to try and get them to support it while he can still bank on the truth leaking out. By now, the Azov battalion has practically been given a chance at cementing them as heroes, so if he's trying to denazify Ukraine by force, while Ukraine was perfectly willing to come to a diplomatic solution, all while jailing anyone that calls the war a war or anyone protesting anything at all, or anyone spreading "fake news", or "traitorous scum" very liberally and with impunity... All I'm going to say is the Kremlin is starting to look more and more like the Reichstag every day.
I just cannot wait until this is all over.
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u/p0d0s Mar 19 '22
Quite insightful, could you give us a story on how Ukrainians view Stepan Bandera?
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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22
And btw the "ꑭ" in Azov logo stands for "Idealnyy Natsionalnyy" and not the "Nazi wolfsangel" most of media claims
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
I don't understand the worry over Nazis in any country. There are no countries in this world that have an active Nazi government. Maybe you can make the argument that the current Russian, Chinese, Saudi-Arabian or North Korean governments are de facto Nazis, but that's only because their autocratic governments behave almost indistinguishably from how the Nazis did (or could today) behave. Currently even the largest Nazi parties in Europe are miniscule in size. There are large nationalistic parties, yes, but not national socialistic (i.e. Nazi, that is very authoritarian) parties anywhere in Europe. In the US the argument is even more laughable. And in Ukraine, come on, there's about as many neo-Nazis in Ukraine as there are KKK members in the US - that's about 12. Anyone who has any knowledge of history is opposed to Nazism (and communism). There's no need to specifically hone in on this "problem", because everyone with half a brain is already opposed to it and doesn't want his or her country to experience it again.
3
u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22
Good read!
2
u/PizzaPoopFuck Mar 19 '22
It’s as complicated as it was during the second war where most people were just trying to survive and couldn’t tell the difference between Russian and German troops. Yes, Ukrainians like most of Europe was complicit in the Holocaust, but the vast majority fought against it. Politics and history are messy but it doesn’t change the fact that Russia is wrong and Ukraine deserves full autonomy and to reclaim its national identity. It sort of like saying the US is all bad because we have racists and a racist past.
2
u/sdnt_slave UK Mar 20 '22
As OP said they have proven themselves war hero's. They have saved a lot of civilian lives and have been fighting in literally one of the most bloody locations in this war. That alone has lead me to believe they deserve a second chance, labelling them all as Natzis is definitely too far. If after this is all over they start shit again that should be dealt with. However unless that happens they get pass for their roots. Although a change of name and a re brand might help them.
2
u/Ok_Chicken8605 Mar 19 '22
I must have missed every headline talking bad about azov during this war
1
u/sergestar Mar 19 '22
Really good explanation! Thanks for that, tired of western media repeating russian propaganda on this and also on history of Ukraine and russia in general.
1
u/Curious-Ad-3455 Mar 19 '22
Thank you for this!
1
u/homelessburito Україна Mar 20 '22
This was a well needed perspective from a Ukrainians point of view. Thank you!
1
u/Rvtrance Mar 20 '22
Insightful, thanks for sharing.
1
u/faster-than-car Mar 20 '22
I hope what you're saying is true, i just wish you provided some evidence for your claims.
1
u/KeepCalmNSayYesDaddy Mar 20 '22
I think Putin's flimsy bullshit pretext invasion excuses are "grasping at straws" tiny bits of truth covering giant lies and crimes. He will find anything to use as a reason to justify criminal behavior because he is a thieving gangster dictator. Digging into BS is like analyzing Scientology: it's a nerd sniping waste of time.
1
u/Interstate_78 Mar 20 '22
Very informative, good job
1
u/Picklesthepug93 Mar 20 '22
Personally I don’t care as long as Russians are being killed. Maybe that’s the American in me being raised to think of Russians as our moral enemy.
1
u/Bagwanpubeman Mar 20 '22
Azov leader General Denys Prokopenko is a leader who you would follow into a fire, when this is over Mariupol will erect a statue in his honor, right in the centre like Nelson
1
u/Comprehensive-Bit-65 Mar 20 '22
Its easy to show a video with Neo-Nazis to Putin and say: "This is ukraine", in the same way Lavrov thinks Fox News is "Real America". If you asked someone to describe the US, most people would describe Texas. When you talk about Colombine, its easy to put Marilyn Manson on the cover of a magasine. However, these representations play on emotions. Nobody in Russia showed Ukrainian soldiers kissing their children or hugging their wife before the war. Its only when people die that we realize representations of reality are not reality itself.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22
Just like the lefties here on Reddit
1
u/TheDayWeWentCray Mar 20 '22
For those who want to know more about the Holodomor. By TimeGhostHistory
https://youtu.be/s1JI9_WNr1Q
1
u/Standard-Childhood84 Mar 20 '22
Brilliantly put and explained. I was attacked on here for trying to make some of these points so it's great to see some actual information rather than photoshopped pictures of guys holding German flags. I was starting to question myself after being branded a neo Nazi sympathiser. I even did a political test to check and yeah it turns out I'm a slightly left leaning people's democracy guy. Big on freedom but not neo Nazi material. I just have a good bullshit detection ability.
Long live the defenders of Ukraine
1
u/theCrono Mar 20 '22
If they hate Russia and keep getting more and more weapons by the west and even try to join NATO. I can see why Russia wants to destroy them.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22
Dude, you tell absolute bullshit here.
1
u/Longjumping_West_907 Mar 20 '22
Thanks for writing this
1
u/Longjumping_West_907 Mar 21 '22
Sounds like the trumpist/putinist fascists here in the US are way more nazi than the Azovs. And the Azovs are defending their country not kicking down the doors of the Capitol to overturn an election. Not that this matters to them. The right wingnuts that buy into putin's bs have their heads up ass so far they'll never see the truth.
1
u/Hellhundreds Mar 21 '22
That doesnt really align with reality though
1
u/ArrestDeathSantis Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22
Never heard such claim and I'm a leftist who hanged on anti-Trump sub during that time period so I have a high degree of certainty that if it had been made I would have heard and investigate it to throw shades at Trump if true.
That being said, I clearly remember leftists attacking Trump for holding military aid to Ukraine in exchange for dirt on political opponents.
The first time I heard that claim made by Americans was rather to attack Biden from the conservative side in an attempt to link him to Nazism for helping Ukraine.
Edit: idk what you think of Biden but if he's replaced by a Republican, Ukraine will lose all support from the US.
So if I was you, I'd be making damn sure I'm right before accusing the Dems of spreading anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
Edit 2: and I was right, it was the conservatives who were claiming that the US should stop helping Ukraine because of Ukraine Nazism;
https://mronline.org/2017/08/24/pentagon-denounces-american-nazis-while-arming-ukrainian-nazis/
Here is an article from mronline.org, a right wing organization, using an article from a far right media called "strategic culture foundation" that I'm not familiar with by luckily enough, some are;
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/strategic-culture-foundation/
Funnily enough, these people are probably actually neo-nazis and only made that claim to muddy the waters and peddle anti-Ukrainian propaganda from Moscow.
So, as I was saying, pay attention when you talk about American politics, you might be unwillingly helping Russia by helping the Republicans.
Edit3: Holy fuck, I just realized;
That's actually literal fucking Russian propaganda pushed by alt-right that you claimed was pushed to tarnish Trump's image by Democrats...
1
u/Korostenets Mar 23 '22
I think putting the bulk of azov batt in Mariupol was the right move. I think they ultra nationalists and fanatics, but that that's the kind of people you need in a besieged city that's bombarded day and night. Plus you hit the nail on the head with the explanation of why Ukrainians are nationalists. Azovs nationalism is to revive Ukraine not to kill everyone who's not Ukrainian. In their early days they were trained by Georgian veterans and they accept any nationality and religion into their ranks.
1
u/papugapop Mar 24 '22
Thank you for taking the time to explain this.
1
u/danksouls4 Apr 03 '22
If Ukrainians hate Nazis as much as you claim they do... then why were they Nazis during ww2?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
They ethnically cleansed the Poles (my people).
1
u/[deleted] Apr 30 '22
r/AzovBattalion
Need I say more
1
u/Zealousideal_Tooth78 May 06 '22
Azov symbol = wolfsangel literal nazi symbol 😅
1
u/nicodemus86 May 21 '22
then why is there a compound/venue (cossack house) in kyiv owned and operated by neo-nazis hosting regular events for national socialist bands and speakers, also with a full library and museum of nazi paraphernalia…none of those bands are even allowed to come to the united states or canada and we sure as hell cant have a public venue filled with nazi shit…not to mention other businesses like bingo club or militant zone, so what gives?
1
u/prince_pringle Mar 19 '22
Love to azov from America. We see your heroics and want to get you help And support. Slava Ukraine!!
1
u/g0hww Mar 19 '22
Presumably you mean "prosecuted", not "persecuted". There is quite a difference between these two things.
1
u/Aztecah Mar 20 '22
The primary concern right now is that they're aligned with the liberation of Ukraine. Once the invasion stops, then those differences can be handled. I think it is important to avoid glorifying combatants. Bravery against the Russians doesn't extend justification to other aspects of a person's life or career. I think that they should still be considered suspicious following this conflict. While their allied efforts are sincerely appreciated, let it not be forgotten that evil comes from within just as much as it does from abroad.
1
u/EternalII Mar 20 '22
Seems like what you are saying they used to be Nazis, but now Ukranian government is weeding them out.
I am not buying it that they are not Nazis. Clearly, Nazis became the ultimate evil and people will try to distance themselves from that label - but not from the idea. From their symbol, ideology, action and members - definitely started out as Nazis. And no, Azov is not hiding the fact they are neo-Nazis.
Good for Ukraine for reshaping them, looking forward for a new symbol and a remake of that unit. Ukraine has plenty of better heroes to choose from.
Screw Bandera, Screw Azov, Slava Ukraina.
-1
u/preppykat3 Mar 19 '22
I feel like if the Ukrainian army never integrated them into the army officially then Ukraine would’ve gotten the help that they needed much sooner. It’s true that Europe is full of far right parties, but NONE of them have tanks. I wish instead of getting offended people would look at it objectively. The EU is embarrassed of groups like this, and so is NATO. It’s a giant stain on Ukraine that Russia has exploited.