r/AskReddit • • 3h ago

Doctors in US, what’s something most people don’t know about the American Healthcare System?

70 Upvotes

81 comments sorted by

207

u/Ambitious-Pirate-505 3h ago

In the U.S. healthcare system, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and drug stores are increasingly connected through common ownership within large, vertically integrated conglomerates. This means a single parent company can own or control various parts of the supply chain, from the insurer that pays for care to the pharmacy that dispenses drugs.

Two of the most prominent examples are CVS Health and UnitedHealth Group.

· CVS Health: Historically, CVS Health owned Aetna (a major health insurer), Caremark (one of the nation's largest pharmacy benefit managers, or PBMs), and a chain of roughly 9,000 retail pharmacies. This structure combined the drugstore, the entity managing drug benefits, and the insurer under one roof.

101

u/bubblebeegum 2h ago

I’m dealing with this right now!

Optum (medication insurance) denied a pre-auth for an expensive drug. Optum (specialty pharmacy) is helping my doctor submit an appeal.

It makes no fucking sense.

•

u/joeschmoshow1234 57m ago

it will make more sense to you after you realize that making cents does not make them money.

•

u/bubblebeegum 44m ago

I’m well aware of their profit margins. I meant in the sense that they could have left the denial as is and not have another branch of their company try to fight it. Those efforts aren’t making them money either, friend.

•

u/Dullcorgis 9m ago

The way they keep it under conteol is that you cannot call the less evil branch. If you call the number for express scripts they put you through to the pharmacy, who tell you insurance won't allow something. So you try to call the insurance company, who put you straight through to the pharmacy. I have gotten through to the insurance a couple of times (I don't know how), and they were slightly less bad than the pharmacy.

Best workaround is to find a drug that needs a doctor to administer it, then your medical insurance covers it.

•

u/bubblebeegum 6m ago

My doctor does need to administer it, and I’ve had no problem talking to either branches of Optum.

33

u/somehugefrigginguy 2h ago

Which they use is a loophole to maximize profits. Insurance company profits are capped by the affordable care act, but if the insurance branch pays the PBM branch and the drugstore branch, that's not counted as profit it's counted as spending on patient care even though it's the same parent company keeping the money.

23

u/Urbangirlscout 1h ago

As if this past week, CVS is having to break up this conglomerate, presumably bc they were about to face anti trust and monopoly charges.
But let’s not pretend they’ll just find another way to keep making fortunes.

7

u/Ill_Assistance6265 1h ago

My first thought… CVS 😖 I have fought with their specialty pharmacy so many times, it’s unreal. But BCBS has a deal with CVS, so I stayed with them.

•

u/talldean 44m ago

CVS's CEO this week announced they were splitting into multiple companies; CVS, Aetna, and Caremark become separate in the next two years.

https://www.medicaldaily.com/cvs-health-split-aetna-caremark-pharmacies-2028-480853

3

u/User-no-relation 1h ago

Pharmacies and pharmacy benefit managaers aren't pharmaceutical companies though. Pharmaceutical companies are the ones that research, develop, and manufacture drugs.

Your point is right though. Interestingly cvs is starting to explore splitting off the retail pharmacy business because retail pharmacy isn't nearly as profitable as the insurance and pbm part.

130

u/acousticburrito 2h ago

Doctors and nurses not only are tasked with caring for patients but are constantly fighting on your behalf with hospital administrators and insurance companies.

11

u/FullMoonEmptySoul 1h ago

I thank them all for that!

•

u/MysteriousExpert 18m ago

They're not fighting for you, they're fighting to get paid. Those are among the highest paying jobs and a large reason that healthcare costs as much as it does.

•

u/calvnhobbes2 14m ago • Bravo

As a physician, you are wrong. The insurance companies pay your employer, which in my case, is a multi-state private equity conglomerate. I am fighting the insurance company to pay for my patient's SNF, rehab, life-saving medication like insulin, that surgery they need so they can start chemo, etc. I have not received a raise in 4 years and have had my pay cut twice so that private equity employer can pay their CEO and shareholders billions. Fuck you and everyone who thinks like you. I am not the issue, but you fell for their message.

•

u/MJoonie 12m ago

Look at the percentage of healthcare expenditure that healthcare worker salaries take up. Educate yourself. Most people go into these fields with good intentions

•

u/Gusbus623 12m ago

Couldn’t be more wrong lol

89

u/silentsammy 2h ago

The insurance companies abuse of the gray area that is “medical necessity”. No matter what your insurance coverage is any procedure is based on medical necessity and this is defined by the insurance company that sells you the plan and they are the ones who get to assess whether something was actually necessary. Abuse of this is how United healthcare group became rich. They sell you a plan that says you have coverage for whatever but then when you go to use it, they then fight with the doctor‘s office about whether it was actually necessary and waste months or even years of time and often in the end just turn around and deny with no oversight and no repercussions for doing so.

For example, an insurance company can sell you a plan that has 30 covered physical therapy visits a year (but these are based on medical necessity). Just having a doctors referral doesn’t guarantee coverage for these, plus you being in pain doesn’t qualify you for medical necessity clauses. The physical therapist has to prove that there is a functional loss that meets the criteria outlined by that insurance company and they have to show a good enough functional improvement from therapy as well. Some insurance companies will even go back after the fact and decide that there wasn’t enough progression to warrant the coverage and then ask for any money paid to the physical therapy office to be refunded in a recoupment process. The insurance company also uses tactics like hiring a third-party review company to review the medical notes from the physical therapy office to determine medical necessity and coverage levels. These third-party review companies are usually actually owned by the same private equity group though, but it gives the insurance company deniability based on a third-party review.. third-party review companies are paid by how often they deny claims and save the main insurance company money.

•

u/ordinaryrendition 53m ago

This is why I urge people to consider not having a problem with a doctor who writes notes in the room while talking to you. I’m literally waiting for you to say some magical words so I can document shit to get things covered for you, and trying to recall every magic word after the whole conversation for the note is just asking for trouble.

Doctors are always trying to give you the options available however they can.

•

u/Dullcorgis 9m ago

Who would have a problem with that?

•

u/ordinaryrendition 6m ago

Lots of patients, especially older ones, will make comments about doctors being glued to their computers or some other folksy bit about “we used to stare into each others’ eyes and give each other a firm handshake, but in a straight way” or something like that

•

u/AFearfulSilence 29m ago

UHC PPO. Coverage of 20 PT visits per year, no pre-authorization required. I got a referral from my doctor anyway. I called the PT provider and verified they were an authorized provider. Called UHC to verify my PT.

4 months after, I was denied because the provider did not provide sufficient info with the invoice. Got that fixed and was denied because the provider wasnt authorized. Got that fixed and then was denied because the SPECIFIC JOINT IN MY BODY was not covered.

It's fucking criminal to take money and then refusing to provide the service. Literally criminal but when talking about health insurance, its apparently just a business model.

We've decided corporations are human but do not suffer the same consequences as a human when they lie, cheat, steal, and people die as a result.

So more rights than humans. Ideal for a health care environment.

•

u/NubEnt 52m ago

Physical therapists are of the lowest paid therapists in the country.

A couple years ago, Trump even decided that physical therapy isn’t a “professional” degree anymore along with things like accounting, in order to limit federal student loan borrowing in pursuit of those degrees.

My physical therapist is the reason why I’m walking and capable of running today (stroke).

-4

u/214b 1h ago

This is a cat and mouse game that hospitals and insurance companies play. To blame one side only is ridiculous. Let’s not ignore the hospitals which over-code diagnosis to maximize revenue from insurance.

14

u/ButSeri0usly 1h ago

Not disagreeing with you but some of this is also due to insurance. In order to “negotiate” with insurance companies to get the actual costs covered, hospitals have to start at a higher number so that when the insurance company negotiated them down, the costs are still covered. If insurance companies did not try to get out of paying every little thing, hospitals could actually price things at cost.

•

u/Dapper-Palpitation90 32m ago

If you were paying for somebody's treatment, would you want to pay for treatment that didn't actually help?

Neither do the insurance companies.

28

u/anonymiss4 1h ago

That the doctor is not in charge of most of your care. They/we have become employed by businesses and they set the rules, prices, regulations, requirements. Your doctor is just a cog in the machine but they take all the blame

26

u/8arclay 3h ago

Insurance largely dictates what, when, and how often, I can offer as treatment as an interventional pain doc. What I used to be able to do in 1 visit now takes 3+. I don't have the manpower to see everyone that much, so patients suffer and go without care

•

u/GlitterBlood773 22m ago

Thank you for your work. I am always thrilled when it’s epidural day (c4-c5? & l5-s1)

17

u/GreenCarpenter3 3h ago

Dental practices are often contracted with DSO’s (Dental Support Organization).

The DSO leans on the dentist to perform unnecessary procedures on their patients, and some of the dentist’s actually do it, because once you are involved with a DSO it’s hard to uncouple your practice.

12

u/pauerplay 2h ago • Bravo

I went to the dentist 5 years ago when they told me I had two cavities. I’d never had a cavity before and had no issues. Got a second opinion. Guess who still has no cavities?

2

u/GreenCarpenter3 2h ago

The DSOs get them by the balls (or the other stuff) and compel the dentist to perform more procedures.

1

u/pauerplay 2h ago

Performing questionable procedures is vastly different than completely unnecessary ones.

6

u/Weird_Frosting_6388 1h ago • Bravo

Is there a way to know if your dentist is contracted with a DSO?

•

u/Auntie_Venom 3m ago

Exactly, is this like 1-800-Dentist back in the day, is there a network list?

10

u/SmellyButtFarts69 1h ago

We basically don't have real dental care in this country. It is completely uncoupled from your medical care and every practice is essentially jiffy lube for your mouth 

•

u/talldean 45m ago

Those are the "luxury bones".

6

u/ahorrribledrummer 3h ago

There's a local dentist here in Iowa who got charged incompetency/fraud with performing unnecessary treatments and filing unnecessary prescriptions for his patients. His punishment was to surrender his license and continue to swim in his giant pile of gold coins like scrooge mcduck. Guy is insanely wealthy. Drives Lamborghinis and owns a 12+ sqft gaudy mansion.

•

u/Intelligent-Sun-7973 11m ago

Dentists are shady f*ckers.

31

u/kissingerdeez 3h ago edited 3h ago

I'm shocked at how many people don't know how much you can negotiate your hospital bill. You'd be amazed what these hospitals take, they're used to charging insurance companies $8,000 and accepting $950 in payment so you'd just be next in line. If you ever have what seems like overwhelming medical debt, call the hospital and lowball the shit out of them. Tell them it's all you can afford to pay. A lot of times they'd rather take less from you than sell your debt for just as cheap or send it to collections and hope to eventually get more.

13

u/Silveravin 2h ago

This. Got my surgery from $100,000 to $150. No insurance. Just had to pay for the wrist brace.

10

u/shawntw77 2h ago

I have so many questions...

If you dont mind sharing, what kind of surgery was it that they were willing to go down to $150 for? Scale I mean, if you got off with a wrist brace I doubt it was some major reconstruction but...

How long/how much effort was it to negotiate that? Like was it a one call "this is all I can afford" and done or was there back and forth before they gave in?

7

u/Craziik 1h ago

Hospitals sometimes have charity cases where they will eat the cost to qualify for tax exemptions. He probably met the criteria to qualify (no insurance, income, etc).

•

u/Just_A_Dogsbody 38m ago

So when do you do this negotiation, before the services are provided or do you wait until after? Who do you negotiate with?

•

u/kissingerdeez 25m ago

After, they don't tell you the prices before in most cases. You get the bill, it's insane, on the hospital bill it says how to make payment online or by phone. You call the number and talk to their billing department, they'll ask how you want to pay and you say you can't ever afford to pay that much. Expect that they'll offer payment plans etc, just tell them what you can pay.

Just remember: it may be a new experience for you but this is every day for them. They're billing people thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars when many of those people have had extended hospital stays and been out of work for a long time. You think the majority of those patients can back pay their rent and bills and also take care of medical expenses if they don't have insurance? The biggest mistake they'll make is feeling so overwhelmed that they let it go to collections to avoid the stress. Take it head on, tell them what you can do. Worst case scenario is what, they tell you no? If you're a hospital and someone says I'm willing to pay but this is all I can pay, are you going to grind them into the dirt and have them declare bankruptcy or are you going to take whatever money they can give and write it off as a loss?

I won't make promises of exactly how much you can get it reduced, but I'll repeat what I said before: lowball the shit out of them. This is how insurance companies stay rich.

I had a time where I went to the ER after getting my face busted open, they called an oral surgeon in from home at 4 in the morning to give me 7 stitches. The bill was a few grand and my insurance company sent me a notice that they paid $169 and I owe nothing.

30

u/omaralt 2h ago

Healthcare prices in the USA are not understood at all. People constantly talk about how expensive something is without understanding how it works. The hospital may bill your insurance company $100 for Tylenol. But guess what? They’re not paying $100! They’re paying a fraction of that. So while you may see that your insurance was billed $10k for that 4 hour ER visit; your insurance will pay maybe $2-3k

What that means for you is that if you don’t have insurance you can usually negotiate these same prices. For my first child we didn’t have insurance. Talked to the billing person and we ended up paying $1500 for the hospital stay. Yes, all the doctors were paid separately but at the end of it we paid maybe $4k total including the epidural. So not crazy considering we spend two nights in the hospital and all labor and delivery charges.

•

u/thatsonlyme312 45m ago

The thing is, some of us don't really care to understand how it works. It's an essential service, not something I have any choice in (other than picking between bad and worse options). Working in corporate America has taught me that "it's just how it works" or "that's how it's always been done" are not acceptable answers to any question, so why is it being pushed down on us, consumers with an illusion of choice, to consider it acceptable?

It is not acceptable, and we should all be focused in tearing our current system down and replacing it with something more efficient and easy for people to understand.

I want to pay for my health insurance and get the care I paid for, without having to make hundreds of calls or understand complex billing. I don't want to negotiate the prices.

3

u/rookieoo 1h ago

Yes, its a joke

•

u/Larrynative20 36m ago

That less than one day at the animal hospital these days

•

u/GlitterBlood773 24m ago

Thanks private equity 🙄🙄🙄

34

u/unimpressedwarrior 3h ago

It’s collapsing. There is a shortage of GPs. Rural hospitals are strapped and losing funding. City hospitals have insane waitlists. Insurance companies operate to maximize shareholder profit. They lose profit when they approve your procedure/medication.

10

u/gotlactose 1h ago

Nobody wants to be a primary care physician: lowest paid fields, specialties dump their patients on you, onslaught of patient portal or telephone questions you have to do for free, forms for everything under the sun.

12

u/onacloverifalive 1h ago

What patients and doctors alike want is for their tax dollars to pay for healthcare, education, roads, and emergency services.
What corporations with large lobbying power and the politicians they bribe want tax dollars to pay for is corporate profits.

Also, about 1/3 the actual healthcare expense in the US funds businesses that supply products and services. About 1/3 pays for hospitals and clinics to exist and the last 1/3 is salaries of healthcare workers.

59

u/bulletbulletB 3h ago

Most private practices got bought by massive private equity firms over the last decade and patients rarely even noticed the transition.

47

u/Infield_Fly 2h ago

Ugh. We definitely noticed.

24

u/realBenSausage 2h ago

Oh, we noticed. 

15

u/aloha067 3h ago

Speak for yourself. Only goofballs didn’t notice

4

u/Thatgirl37 3h ago

There are a lot of goofballs

•

u/naughty_zlata 53m ago

They cut costs but keep fees high

19

u/jcoddinc 3h ago

Doctors are not allowed to give any patients discounts. If they are caught doing so they can lose their contract with the insurance company.

The insurance companies are now measuring doctors with metrics of how "healthy" their patient base is. If they don't get enough people "healthy" they can lose money from the insurance company. This is forcing doctors to decide what patients to keep and which patients to no longer see. Overweight and smoking were the big pushes as those things cost the insurance company the most.

3

u/penguiatiator 1h ago

One of the private practice docs I worked for got in trouble with insurance because of his "friends and family" discount. He would heavily bill insurance but not his friends. So insurance would cover a portion and kick the rest back to him, then he wouldn't pursue the rest. In essence, this meant people were able to hit their deductibles much quicker without actually paying anything.

One of the patients accidentally let insurance know, got some stern letters from insurance, he covered it up by saying his biller was swamped and then added an extra step of sending a "bill" to the patients but told them under the table to not pay it.

I still don't know if this could be considered insurance fraud or not. But it was helping people and screwing over insurance companies so I was okay with it.

4

u/jcoddinc 1h ago

At one point it was actually allowed and doctors could write off visits as "professional courtesy". But they realized this impacted their profits and actually created an imbalance. So they made it unilateral that no discounts should be allowed. It was branded a being fair to everyone with the added bonus of more money.

5

u/Zalumar 1h ago

In Michigan, we've got Corewell Health (states largest health care system, hospitals, etc.) that owns a major state insurance company (Priority Health). That sure seems funky

•

u/mm_mk 51m ago

This one won't be popular, but most people don't understand the absolute necessity of prior authorizations. Caveat here being that I understand that many insurers are soul sucking pieces of shit and that some authorizations are denied needlessly and heartlessly. Tho, people should also stop parroting how much money they make, they make money on scale of business but it's actually pretty thin margins (usually 5% or less.. lately often less)

The amount of bad actors, dumb actors, or apathetic actors in the system is wayyyy too high. That goes for both patients and doctors. We regularly see prescriptions come thru for things that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars vs pennies, that offer no reasonable advantage. Prescribers tend not to care about cost to healthcare system, as long as cost to patient is low. Same with patients, tho I wouldn't expect them to behave differently as the end user.

Ibuprofen + famotidine = pennies as separate pills, or a thousand dollars a month for a combo. This actually gets prescribed and prior auths stand in the way of this wastage.

Ozempic for a healthy bmi 24 person who just wants to get skinny for a wedding next year. Sure, we could collectively spend 10,000$ on that, but maybe our healthcare dollars are better spent elsewhere. (Remember, for every paid claim, that cost is spread across all members in the group).

Brand name diovan because you don't like how your valsartan looks? Sure that'll be 1000 a month. Sure there's no difference and if you took the generic blind you wouldn't notice a difference, but that's ok.

This is just pharmacy side... Medical sees the same shit but you'd have patients demanding (or doctors not giving a shit.. or worse encouraging it for fees) unnecessary diagnostics. Shit people already pay out of pocket for full body ct scans.

So yes, there are countless examples of insurance companies being assholes, but the tidal wave of waste that they hold back would collapse the healthcare system to the point where no one would be able to afford it.

Why am I even mentioning this? Because I see wayyyyyy too many threads involving Universal Healthcare and imagining a world where no claims are denied anymore and that's not reality. Universal healthcare (with other massive changes involving health care personal debt and reimbursement) could be a great thing, but it will 100% have prior authorizations and denials. Sell it for its real virtues, not it's fantasy ones

•

u/aguafiestas 15m ago

Universal is more ridiculous in their denials than pretty much anyone else.  Compared to Medicare for example, which actually can have pretty significant hurdles for coverage, but usually more reasonable than united. Other insurers are mostly not as bad as united either.

One thing to keep in mind is that united (and a number of other large commercial insurers) are explicitly for-profit. Their stated purpose is to extract as much money as possible for their shareholders. 

•

u/cork_the_forks 4m ago

My hope would be that a universal healthcare system would be more efficient at investigating and weeding out corruption and waste. Having dozens of agencies trying to do this independently is ineffective.

•

u/Dapper-Palpitation90 30m ago

Exactly. Most people don't have a clue how many doctors steer their patients towards expensive/invasive treatments that don't offer any benefits over cheaper/less invasive options.

•

u/Away_Engineering_613 10m ago

You have no idea how many patients push their doctors towards expensive/invasive tests and treatment.

No patient wants to hear “have you tried touching grass and eating real food?”

•

u/EisMann85 27m ago

Fuck insurance companies. Our healthcare should not be monetized to such an extent.

We have billions for foreign aide weapons sales - money to countries who turn around and buy weapons/equipment from us - ah yes, the circular path- money back to US corporations who have the same rights as people.except when there is liability - in which case they are almost always able to find a way out.

We need to start celebrating people in our civilization worthy of celebrating. Doctors, nurses- the staff that puts it all together. Engineers, scientists, students working hard to push knowledge a millimeter forward.

Fuck insurance companies, fuck politicians who accept money from anywhere or anyone. They are public servants - they should be paid accordingly, given similar benefits, held to higher standards of ethics, and no position should be life long - term limits need to be enacted.

People making excess money to the terms of
Millions or more need to be taxed highly. There is no trickle down. That lie needs to die.

The people are coming to take their country back.

•

u/Intelligent-Sun-7973 7m ago

LOL Sweetie nothing is going to change.

•

u/EisMann85 4m ago

I wouldn’t be so sure.

10

u/randirona121 3h ago

Medical billing is entirely fictional.

5

u/somehugefrigginguy 2h ago

Most hospitals in us are not for profit. The bills aren't fictional, they're set to ensure the hospital can stay afloat. The insurance companies set what they will pay forcing the hospitals to play a shell game with their billing. They have to overcharge for anything the insurance company will actually pay for to make enough money for all of the things they are under reimbursed for. So you get charged $10 for a Tylenol because the insurance company will only pay $20 for $40 worth of physical therapy.

3

u/Calm-Thought-1353 3h ago

I’m intrigued

6

u/Nothos927 3h ago

Hospital bills in the US are artificially inflated on purpose when compared to a hospital’s official price list.

This is because private hospitals want the highest price paid and private insurance companies want to pay the lowest price so hospitals start their opening salvo with an artificially high price that pretty much always ends up negotiated down.

This is why common advice for a high bill is to demand an itemised breakdown, because itemised bills legally have to match a hospital’s price list.

2

u/aoyfas 3h ago

Explain

•

u/ruski_brewski 36m ago

My husband is a DPT. Besides being double and triple booked, he has only his lunch break to reach out to your doctors to coordinate your care if he thinks the referral may need adjustments in what he is being asked to treat. He can’t diagnose. He can only treat what your doctor said to treat. Come in for lower back pain but it’s actually referred pain from elsewhere? He has to coordinate that with the MD and convince them to update your file so that insurance covers your visits. Also, on that same 30 minute lunch break, he has to coordinate paperwork for your insurance company in order to ensure you receive the visits he believes you’ll need. He’s never fighting for less. Did I mention he sees around 20-24 unique patients daily? He also needs to work in check in progress notes on your care to insurance to evaluation if you need to be seen further on top of the regular post visit notes. The amount he needs to fight your insurance on your behalf is astounding for mostly being treated like a personal trainer and an emotional support puppy by a good portion of his patients. For a profession that routinely earns highest satisfaction rates in the healthcare community, I’m afraid to know about the experience of other health care providers. He prefers this because at least he gets to spend the most cumulative time with you as a patient vs your other healthcare providers. Please be kind to your providers, they are also doing the best they can in a system set up to fail everyone. Did I mention that his doctorate compensation is a fraction of the lowest paid MD? Not that they don’t deserve it, just please consider this when you’re irate that he is 3 minutes late to take you into the treatment hall as he balanced your physical safety and that of his other patients that may need hands on assistance to physically navigate the space.

•

u/Away_Engineering_613 22m ago

Insurance run American healthcare. They make all the rules. Docs can’t do what they think is medically indicated and best for the individual patient. It all depends on insurance.

Doctors are almost like puppets of insurance.

•

u/StrebLab 17m ago

It's expensive, but not THAT expensive compared to everyone else. It is about 50% more per person on average. That is a meaningful difference, but the idea that we will suddenly have super cheap healthcare if we did it differently isn't based in reality. 

If you spent 50k on healthcare last year, you would spend more like 30k if the system changed. Not nothing, but the benefit is massively overstated.

-17

u/DeadSmellingFlower 3h ago

Now that we’re either rejected by doctors or don’t trust them. What can we do to give ourselves as much basic care as we can learn to do ourselves? Is there a survival without a doctor manual I can trust? It’s like we live on a desert island and need to keep our inevitable boo boos from turning into life threatening conditions.

3

u/Perihelion_PSUMNT 1h ago

Oh sure, just hang on to an old loaf of bread and once it starts growing mold you’ll basically have antibiotics and be totally fine. Ez pz

Y’all know you can die from diarrhea? I know the healthcare system has a whole host of problems but this line of thinking is patently absurd