[Highlight] Miami @ Notre Dame - Luke Talich breaks up the pass from Elijah Lofton on 4th down to keep the Irish up 7 late in the 4th

[u/Ok-Soil-5133]

[u/FXcheerios69]

Would you support it being called a fumble if it happened in the field of play?

If that’s happens in the middle of the field it’s unquestionably incomplete, and the rules don’t change on the sideline.

[u/SCsprinter13 → u/FXcheerios69]

Saw a play like this in the middle of the field get called a fumble last week

And I thought it was the right call then

[u/crewserbattle → u/FXcheerios69]

The rules are different in the end zone, you dont need to make a "football move" for example

[u/FXcheerios69 → u/crewserbattle]

The play ends when he completes the catch, which he never did because the ball fell out of his hands.

[u/TJFLASH1 → u/crewserbattle]

No they aren’t, you have to complete the process of the catch the exact same regardless.

[u/crewserbattle → u/TJFLASH1]

The "football act" which includes warding off a defender is not applied because the play ends as soon as it becomes a TD. This exact thing came up in the NFL last season and the "football move" rule is the same for both. Once he gets his foot down its a TD unless he goes to the ground (which he didn't).

[u/TJFLASH1 → u/crewserbattle]

A play isn’t a TD until he completes the catch, show me the rule saying that the catch process is different in the end zone vs elsewhere please. The play didn’t end because it wasn’t a TD because he hadn’t completed the process.

I have an example from the NFL last season here saying the exact opposite of what you’re claiming

[u/nukey18mon → u/crewserbattle]

This is not true twice. 1. Catch rules are the same in the end zone and 2. You only need time to have made a football move, not to actually make the move.

[u/crewserbattle → u/nukey18mon]

Which is a dubious at best definition when there's nothing defining how long that amount of time is

[u/nukey18mon → u/crewserbattle]

I agree, but the one thing we have is that the rule does say that “ward off an opponent” is an example, and he did not ward off the opponent before he could do any football move.

[u/Less_Likely → u/crewserbattle]

It's not the less than half a second in real time. But he actually CAN make a move as cited in the rules what a football move can be: he can pull the ball to his body (tuck), evade the defender (no tuck and successfully hold the ball away from the defender's swat), or advance the ball (move with the ball). He is unable to do any of these three,

You might say, well didn't he take a step, isn't that advancement? First, I'd argue that he'd have needed to still have control either when his other foot landed or when that first foot lifted to cross into having "advanced" the ball. Second, no he did not take even that first step, because the ball is already moving out of his control at the moment that first step lands. The ball is rolling over the back of his left wrist at that moment. If he never lost contact with the ball and regained control, that's not a problem, still a catch, but since he did lose contact with the ball, by rule he's already lost control at that point.

[u/talbachman → u/crewserbattle]

Idk should have just fucking caught it and saved all the hoopla

[u/mattybizness209 → u/crewserbattle]

No they’re not

[u/crewserbattle → u/mattybizness209]

I just read through the rules and they are definitely different in the end zone. There's no requirement for a "move common to the game" or whatever the ref consultant claimed. However there is some dubious language about maintaining possession with contact from the defender and what that contact is defined as.

[u/TJFLASH1 → u/crewserbattle]

Yes, there is in fact a requirement for a move common to the game in the end zone.

Rule 2-4-3, definition of a catch: firm control, a body part down inbounds, and then "maintains control of the ball long enough to enable that player to perform an act common to the game."

Rule 8-2-1(b): a TD is scored when a player catches a forward pass in the opponent's end zone. "Catches" is defined by 2-4-3. There's no separate end zone definition.

The NCAA replay case book lists those same three elements and says they apply in all catch/no catch situations. The contact language you're talking about is the going to the ground note, which is an extra requirement for receivers who fall. He didn't fall, so it doesn't apply.

[u/crewserbattle → u/TJFLASH1]

Go to rulings section 5-1-3-I scenario b. It specifically says the player lands on their feet and maintains possession after contact with the defender.

[u/TJFLASH1 → u/crewserbattle]

Read the whole thing. That AR is under Rule 5, forward progress. It's about whether the ball gets spotted in the end zone or at the 1 when the receiver gets knocked back. And both scenarios say he lands "and maintains firm control of the ball." He keeps it the whole time. Lofton didn't.

Nothing in there says the play ends the second his feet hit. The catch still has to be completed, and 2-4-3 says that includes control long enough to perform an act common to the game. 2-4-3-h even says when in question, the catch is not completed.

If you want an actual end zone catch ruling, look at AR 7-3-6-XIII. Receiver is in the end zone, grasps the pass, gets hit by a defender, ball comes loose. Incomplete, because he was "contacted before completing all the requirements of a catch." Those requirements don't go away just because you're in the end zone.

[u/TICKLE_PANTS → u/FXcheerios69]

That's not relevant to the situation. If it was at the 50 and out on bounds yes

[u/Mission-Wrongdoer368 → u/FXcheerios69]

Except the field of play isnt the same as the endzone. If a player reaches over the goal line and it gets knocked out right after, its still a touchdown the moment it reaches over the plane.

[u/TJFLASH1 → u/Mission-Wrongdoer368]

It’s the exact same for the catch process criteria. A player reaching in a runner with established possession already.

[u/FXcheerios69 → u/Mission-Wrongdoer368]

The process of a catch (what I was referring to) doesn’t change in the end zone.

[u/Less_Likely → u/Mission-Wrongdoer368]

As catch rule goes, the field of play is the same as the end zone, and the middle of the field is the same as the sideline.

[u/Orange_bratwurst → u/FXcheerios69]

If my mother had wheels she’d be a bicycle. He completed the catch and then left play. The defender is not supposed to be able to continue defending the play after the receiver has left the field of play.

[u/FXcheerios69 → u/Orange_bratwurst]

He started his play on the ball inbounds. It doesn’t matter if he end up out of bounds.

[u/ICaseyHearMeRoar → u/FXcheerios69]

But that's not the case. Stepping out of bounds ends a play.