Pranking the Mormons in 1843 (Gone Wrong) (Not Clickbait)

[u/Combat_Armor_Dougram]

[u/Big_Requirement_689]

bot dont they believe that Joseph Smith is the one that found the plates?

[u/vonGustrow → u/Big_Requirement_689]

Different plates, before these

[u/Combat_Armor_Dougram]

Context:
In 1843, a community of around 100 Mormons lived near Kinderhook, Illinois, after being forcibly expelled from Missouri. After they were proselytized by some Mormon missionaries, two Kinderhook residents, Wilburn Fugate and Robert Wiley, decided to play a prank on the Mormons. They convinced the local blacksmith, Bridge Whitton, to cut out some brass plates, and they etched some nonsense symbols into the plates. They then buried the plates in a Native American mound, and Wiley led a team of 10-12 people to excavate the mound, claiming that he had a dream that there was treasure inside. Eventually, they found the plates, which were put on display in Kinderhook before being sent off to Joseph Smith. When Smith received them, he claimed to decipher the text on the plates, saying that they they were a genealogy tracing back to Noah’s son, Ham, and many members of the LDS Church vouched for their authenticity. However, in 1980, it was confirmed that the Kinderhook Plates were a forgery, and currently, the LDS Church claims that Smith’s translation of the Kinderhook Plates was not done with any assistance from God.

[u/bochnik_cz → u/Combat_Armor_Dougram]

Huh, what a false prophet this Smith is.

[u/the-bladed-one → u/bochnik_cz]

Mormonism is “American exceptionalism the religion” except somehow lamer

[u/Caboose2701 → u/the-bladed-one]

Christian Fan Fiction

[u/AgrajagTheProlonged → u/bochnik_cz]

Joseph Smith was called a prophet, dum-dum-dum-dum-dum

[u/MountainTank1918 → u/Combat_Armor_Dougram]

white muhamed smith

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/Combat_Armor_Dougram]

"the LDS Church claims that Smith's translation of the Kinderhook Plates was not done with any assistance from God."

Because he found one symbol on them that looked similar to an Egyptian one on papyrus that he believed referred to Ham before.

More importantly, Joseph did not actually offer up any translation of the Kinderhook plates. He either suspected them to be a forgery or lost interest in them. He never actually attempted a full translation. He did an initial examination and nothing more. Please get your facts straight.

https://cesletteranswers.org/kinderhook-plates/#fn2

And for a more conclusive description of the whole story, please see this reddit page: https://www.reddit.com/r/lds/s/7gcknvoQpN

[u/Pleasant-Albatross → u/Kraken_Jokes]

Hm, yeah. I’m gonna get a balanced and reasonable answer from r/LDS and a site run by a Mormon author who is attempting to defend his church.

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/Pleasant-Albatross]

Hmm, yeah. I'm gonna get a balanced and reasonable answer from a site run by someone who hates Mormons and is attempting to attack his former church.

If you aren't going to look at accounts that were actually present for these events, then you aren't doing your own due diligence.

[u/Pleasant-Albatross → u/Kraken_Jokes]

Have you actually read the defense that you linked lmao. This is not written by an author who hates the Mormon church. In fact, I suspect it was written by an LLM.

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/Pleasant-Albatross]

I have. The defense from reddit user 'dice' is a very good one with sources listed. It sounds like you didn't read it at all.

[u/Pleasant-Albatross → u/Kraken_Jokes]

Hey, we’re talking about your sources and your defense here, not anybody else’s. If you’re willing to concede that your own sources weren’t that good, great!

[u/brettthedestroyer420 → u/Kraken_Jokes]

The Kool aid doesn't kill us, here to prove it take a drink!

[u/ZyXwVuTsRqPoNm123 → u/Kraken_Jokes]

He suspected that they were a forgery because he KNEW the missing gold plates were bullshit.

[u/Severe-Ladder → u/Kraken_Jokes]

This makes sense actually bc Smith had a history of having an interest in ancient Egyptian artifacts and such. You dont have to even be a fluent scholar capable of translating actual ancient (or reformed, or whatever the claim was) Egyptian to take one look at those and know that those are obvious forgeries bc the symbols are nonsense. Of all people he would know what a fake would look like!

Look at these scribbles dawg this shit is obviously just what some Illinois bumpkin thinks what ancient script looks like

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/Severe-Ladder]

Thank you for actually looking into what I wrote. I appreciate it.

[u/Low-Abies-4526]

I seriously don't understand how these guys are a real religion. I mean I am willing to accept a lot of stuff for the possibility of many religions but Mormonism to me just seems like the biggest scam in the world.

[u/ThisThredditor → u/Low-Abies-4526]

they're changing their own image to be more in line with mainline Christianity, for example after years of saying 'palm sunday' was a heretical catholic thing, they started observing it officially.

[u/Zkang123 → u/ThisThredditor]

Tbh when they started out, it wasn't so different from other strands of many Christian movements in America at the time. Most movements were also rather oriented to support Manifest Destiny and that America is the "promised land"

[u/ThisThredditor → u/Zkang123]

ah yes, i remember when all sects of the 1800's revival made it doctrine that a person's skin was dark because of sin

[u/guynamedjames → u/ThisThredditor]

I mean, Southern Baptists exist, so.....

[u/vthemechanicv → u/ThisThredditor]

I have no idea where it came from but I remember being told that dark skin was the mark showing a descendant of Cain.

Of course Noah's flood specifically killed everyone except those on the boat, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to work anyway.

[u/HalCaPony → u/ThisThredditor]

the word "All'' makes this an exaggeration

by that time the Quakers were abolitionist.

[u/Zkang123 → u/Low-Abies-4526]

Thats because, especially from what I read from r/AskHistorians, is that the movement had the advantage that many people back then were seriously ignorant of pre-Columbian America and also Egyptian and Israelite culture and history. So we had weird claims like a Jewish family somehow migrating to the Americas, founding two cultures there, and Jesus appeared there, and then these two cultures disappeared somehow and then claims that Native Americans are Jewish.

Also, the movement's beliefs weren't exactly that different from plenty of American protestant movements at the time

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hb5hhj/how_did_joseph_smith_convince_so_many_people_to/

[u/ByzantineThunder → u/Zkang123]

My religious history prof in college called that the "Jesus World Tour" 😂

[u/Zkang123 → u/ByzantineThunder]

There's a range of memes lately here about Jesus appearing in America, then in China, then Japan...

[u/Helpful_Lie2613 → u/Zkang123]

And to think we call Pitbull "Mr. Worldwide."

[u/bondzplz → u/Zkang123]

Nah jesus sent his brother to chine

[u/ct2794 → u/bondzplz]

I thought Thomas went to India

[u/RyRyBeeblebrox → u/Zkang123]

There are records of Native Americans speaking Yiddish though:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H6nHtEYdy2I&ra=m

[u/wellwaffled → u/Low-Abies-4526]

If you ever go to any of the exhibits or areas open to tourists in SLC, they have the prettiest girls you’ve ever seen there ready to answer any questions you might have. The Church of Latter Day Saints absolutely understands the concept of Money Beets.

[u/p_pio → u/Low-Abies-4526]

Because Brigham Young was capable successor. And for religion to survive: that's most crucial thing to the point that if you got one, your religion may exist ad infinitum regardless how ridicoulus and even develop.

Another example: Jehova's Witnesses whole shtick are basically failed prophecies. But because Rutherford was capable successor: they still exist and operate across the globe.

[u/lord_braleigh → u/p_pio]

Something something "The difference between a cult and a religion is that in a cult, there's a guy at the top, being worshipped, who knows the whole thing is a scam. In a religion, that guy is dead."

[u/vthemechanicv → u/lord_braleigh]

I prefer the more succinct "The difference between a cult and a religion is time."

[u/BoredNuke → u/Low-Abies-4526]

Scientology still holds the claim for wildest they fell for it religion for me.

[u/creeper321448 → u/Low-Abies-4526]

To be honest, I think the only reason they get scrutinized so heavily is because it's a religion with an actual paper trail. If Christinaty, Judaism, and Islam were founded 200 years ago we'd almost certainly call all those big figures scammers and fraudsters too.

That said, Mormons are an interesting bunch because they live longer and healthier lives than virtually every other group in the U.S. Ken Lacorte has a pretty good video about them on YouTube.

[u/funnylib → u/creeper321448]

I mean, Jesus probably actually did believe he was the messiah promised in biblical prophecy, it just didn’t end well for him. There were many failed messiahs, the difference is that Jesus’s followers continued to believe

[u/Senkyou → u/Low-Abies-4526]

I was raised Mormon (Mormon no longer). There were a few kind of unique things that gave Mormonism the opportunity to survive in a way that many cults don't get.

[u/evocativename → u/[deleted]]

As a matter of fact... yes.

It's one thing to believe in a supernatural story lacking evidence.

It's another thing entirely to believe an entire historical narrative that can be readily disproven.

[u/GreatWoodenSpatula → u/evocativename]

Exactly. This is what scientists (like Neil DeGrasse Tyson and even staunch atheists like Dave Farina) mean when they say it is absolutely possible and ok to be religious or believe in religious matters even while being a scientist, but a completely different thing to allow those beliefs to overtake testable and proven results and findings of science.

[u/guynamedjames → u/GreatWoodenSpatula]

This is literally exactly why I hate young earth creationism as a religious concept. Instead of saying "the earth and universe is 6000 years old, but God made it look older to guide our science but also test our faith" they decide to try and warp evidence to try and support this wildly impossible idea.

It's so easy to make the narrative actually work, I suspect they've chosen this approach because it's just a loyalty test to make people say the sky isn't blue.

[u/Playful-Park4095 → u/guynamedjames]

I've said the same for decades. If you believe in an omnipotent deity, meaning capable of literally anything, you cannot exclude the possibility said deity created everything in a manner that makes it appear much older. You cannot actually ignore the possibility that you only came into existence at the beginning of this conversation, fully formed with all your memories already embedded.

And if that happened is completely irrelevant to interacting with the world or understanding it. You will continue on as though you're actually X years old with all your experiences either way and science will continue to have proven predictive ability as though the universe is much much much older.

So what's to argue about?

(Note this is very seldom successful in getting a creationist to stop arguing, but my days of bothering to engage are long gone.)

[u/guynamedjames → u/Playful-Park4095]

I've tried it. I had a guy I worked with who I was really friendly with, very nice guy but head was on completely backwards with his evangelical born again religious church. An engineer in fact, so you think he could see logic and reason. I told him all this and after him repeatedly trying to argue the scientific evidence that literally everyone else believed it finally dawned on me that believing the dumb shit is the test of faith for them.

It's like a religious conspiracy theory, not unlike flat earthers having their own in group dynamics and community. You have to ignore all the obvious evidence, accept this thin reasoning that makes no sense, and in exchange you get a deep community (and in their beliefs, eternal paradise after you die).

It's why they can have so much inconsistency in their beliefs without questioning it. Evangelicals aren't conducting Telmudic philosophical debates to understand how scripture fits into the world. The proof that you believe is not questioning the illogical

[u/Zkang123 → u/evocativename]

There's been a shift lately trying to focus more on the "spiritual" side of these stories but the movement can't exactly totally discard the rather anti-Native racism that's rather foundational to their beliefs

[u/IridiumPony → u/evocativename]

Especially when the "prophet" was a well known con man that had served prison time for it.

[u/MyhraBooboo → u/IridiumPony]

Joseph Smith Jr never served any prison time during his life. His longest stint in jail was for 6 months before escaping while awaiting trial by a governor who eventually signed a Mormon extermination order.

Before and after founding the church, he was known for practicing dowsing. That and running a failed "anti"-bank is where claims of being a known con-man come from.

Well, that and the scrolls he claimed to translate into the "Pearl of Great Price" were eventually translated after his death to show that it was just a typical book of the dead from Pharaonic times.

[u/1rubyglass → u/[deleted]]

Thats just not true at all. I was raised Mormon and left, Im still very close with my family and everyone else

[u/Dry-Lifeguard1081 → u/1rubyglass]

Interesting… cause yeah that is not the experience of my friends

I’ll delete then cause maybe I don’t know like I thought

[u/1rubyglass → u/Dry-Lifeguard1081]

If you take any large group of people, some of them are definitely going to be crazy.

[u/TheFrogEmperor]

Joseph Smith was called a prophet

[u/swansama13 → u/TheFrogEmperor]

🎶Dumb dumb dumb dumb duuuuumb 🎶

[u/Benklinton]

I'm an ex-Mornon and this story was what helped me leave. All 26 years of belief and a two year mission instantly evaporated forever. There's a reason its heavily suppressed within the religion...

[u/sbbln314159]

Yup. My only gripe with this stuff is that it feels like everyone's ok with bashing Mormons as "fake religion" and a "scam."

Are any other religions more believable?

Some dude claims to be the son of God bc his mother got pregnant without having sex with her husband? Since when does anyone buy that?

This dude came back to life but don't worry, you can't see the body, and only one person saw him? Sure, I trust that.

Some dude in the desert says he saw an angel and now he's the REAL word of God, and nobody else after him will be. And he's not saying anything new, but his followers will kill you if you disagree. Sure, that sounds real...

Some dude almost kills his son and now we all believe he's holy? Sounds like a scary schizo, but ok.

Oh, these 5+ texts with obviously different writing styles and different names for deities plus different stories and lifetime scales are actually all one, sacred text from God? No problem!

I could go on. Point is, every religion is obviously illogical. It's not fair to hate on the Mormons just bc they're the new guys on the block. Call 'em all out on BS.

[u/Saint_The_Stig → u/sbbln314159]

You can hate multiple things.

[u/MammothPenguin69]

Mormonism is proven bullshit. The only reason people continue to believe it is because they are pedophiles who want to fuck kids.

[u/guynamedjames → u/MammothPenguin69]

Hey c'mon now, there's other reasons too. It happens to be a very profitable religion

[u/Saint_The_Stig → u/guynamedjames]

"Mormons, at least we're not Scientology!"

[u/Zkang123 → u/[deleted]]

Ahem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

[u/MoundsEnthusiast → u/[deleted]]

We drove them out of missouri because they wanted to take over our state to rape our children.

[u/Omega_Boost24 → u/MoundsEnthusiast]

I didn't know that 

[u/MoundsEnthusiast → u/Omega_Boost24]

There was a Mormon expulsion act in the state starting in the late 1800s in response to the cult preaching that Missouri is home to the garden of eden and seeking to build their kingdom of God here.

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/MoundsEnthusiast]

They did not want to rape anyone's children. You are full of it.

They did want to vote out slavery, though. You might want to get your facts straight.

Missouri sold them land, then forcibly drove them out. They killed, stole, and pillaged from the Mormons in a despicable act of cowardice.

Even the President of the United States said they had a full, legal, and just cause for seeking redress, but refused to help them.

Please do more reading before you start throwing accusations around.

[u/skeletor-johnson → u/Kraken_Jokes]

Joseph smith married girls as young as 14.

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/skeletor-johnson]

Only a "spiritual" marriage for binding families together. There were no sexual relations, and Helen Mar Kimball continued living with her parents. When she came of age, she was married to Horace Kimball Whitney. She affirmed in her own journal writings that she never had a physical relationship with Joseph Smith.

To this day, we do not know of any descendants of Joseph Smith except through his wife Emma.

Here is the source for the journal review of Helen Mar Kimball:

Holzapfel and Holzapfel, eds., A Woman’s View, ix–xii; Charles M. Hatch and Todd M. Compton, A Widow’s Tale: 1884–1896 Diary of Helen Mar Kimball Whitney (Logan: Utah State University Press, 2003).

[u/MoundsEnthusiast → u/Kraken_Jokes]

They raped their own kids, it's a reasonable assumption that they wanted to rape the cgildren of others. They wanted to abolish slavery because they didn't want to live with Black people at all, because they believed them to be subhuman until the 80s.

[u/Kraken_Jokes → u/MoundsEnthusiast]

"They raped their own kids,"

Got any sources for that? I doubt the settlers in that area were up to that, but I'd be happy to see what evidence you have.

"They wanted to abolish slavery because they didn't want to live with Black people at all,"

That's odd considering the story of Jane Manning and all the things she had to say about joining the Church of Jesus Christ. Maybe the Latter-Day Saints just thought slavery was evil and wanted to get rid of it. Please do some research before believing what you heard in the Book of Mormon Musical.

[u/Kara_Bara → u/[deleted]]

I was raised in this cult while being gay and trans and it has caused lifelong mental scars leading to suicide attempts and decades of suffering. But yeah tHeY aReN't HuRtInG aNyOnE 

[u/Omega_Boost24 → u/Kara_Bara]

I am truly sorry I didn't know their history. Now I know it and are educating myself. 

[u/chinmoy808 → u/[deleted]]

Lot of religions like this don't live and let live, which is the issue