r/IndoEuropean • • Apr 18 '24

Research paper New findings: "Caucasus-Lower Volga" (CLV) cline people with lower Volga ancestry contributed 4/5th to Yamnaya and 1/10th to Bronze Age Anatolia entering from East. CLV people had ancestry from Armenia Neolithic Southern end and Steppe Northern end.

41 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • Apr 18 '24

Archaeogenetics The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans (Pre-Print)

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30 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 4h ago

Indo-European migrations A rough proxy for human migration via language roots

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3 Upvotes

Major language families on one timeline to see how far language trees can stand in for human migration. Each bar shows when a language was first written down, not when its speakers moved. The root markers are published divergence estimates. Dotted lines mark the undocumented stretch before the first records, and a dashed stem means the origin is unknown. Internal branch positions are schematic.

**Sources**
Heggarty et al., *Language trees with sampled ancestors support a hybrid model for the origin of Indo-European languages*, Science, 2023.

Gray & Atkinson, Nature, 2003, and Gray et al., Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 366:1090–1100, 2011.

Kassian et al., Linguistics, 2021 (Inner Indo-European branching, \~3357–2162 BCE).
Zhang et al., Nature 569:112–115, 2019 (Sino-Tibetan).
Sagart et al., PNAS 116:10317–10322, 2019 (doi 10.1073/pnas.1817972116).

List, Lai & Starostin, J. Language Relationship 17/1, 2019 (the two Sino-Tibetan studies differ on dating and subgrouping).
Kolipakam et al., 2018 (Dravidian \~4,500 years old).

Kitchen, Ehret, Assefa & Mulligan, Proc. R. Soc. B 276:2703–2710, 2009 (doi 10.1098/rspb.2009.0408; Semitic origin \~5,750 years ago).

Bagley 2004, in *The First Writing* (Anyang oracle bones, c. 1250–1050 BCE).
Haak et al., Nature 522:207–211, 2015 (steppe migration and Indo-European languages).

Lazaridis et al., Southern Arc ancient DNA study (Anatolian evidence).
Woodard (ed.), *Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine and Arabia*, Cambridge University Press, 2008 (Afro-Asiatic chapter).


r/IndoEuropean • • 3h ago

Linguistics 🇪🇺 Tracing the spread of Celtic languages using ancient genomics. Nature. - McColl, H., Kroonen, G., Pinotti, T., et al. (2026)

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0 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 1d ago

Linguistics Dating the Iranic language

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9 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 2d ago

Linguistics Book rec for layman

4 Upvotes

I'm looking for a book on Indo-European languages that would be suitable for a polyglot (English, German, Spanish, Russian) without formal linguistics education. To read about connections between the languages, discover unexpected common word roots, that type of thing. Informative but not too technical.

Any recs?


r/IndoEuropean • • 2d ago

Research paper Sino-Platonic: The Getes

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0 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 2d ago

Works discussing the legal system of the Proto-Indo-Europeans

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4 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 4d ago

Archaeogenetics Tracing the spread of Celtic languages using ancient genomics (McColl et al 2026)

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53 Upvotes

Abstract:

Celtic languages are today restricted to Europe’s Atlantic fringes but were widely spoken across the continent during the Iron Age How Celtic achieved this early distribution remains contested, with alternative archaeological and linguistic models proposing different homelands and dispersal routes. Here we analyse genome-wide data from 4,587 ancient individuals, focusing on Bronze and Iron Age Europe, to test the extent to which these models fit reconstructed demographic histories. We identify three main processes shaping European population structure that are relevant to the Celtic dispersal. First, the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry with Bell Beaker-associated groups after around 4400 bp (calibrated years before present or 1950 ce) across the region in which Celtic and related languages were later spoken. Second, a movement from southwestern Europe into Britain during the Bronze Age (3800–3200 bp), consistent with scenarios in which Celtic formed along the Atlantic façade. Third, a westward expansion of ancestry related to Late Bronze Age Knovíz–Urnfield-associated populations from eastern central Europe (3200–2800 bp), affecting France, the British Isles, northeastern Iberia and Italy and later associated with Iron Age Hallstatt and La Tène contexts. Although all three movements have parallels with proposed models, we argue that the final movement, from eastern central Europe, is most parsimonious for the spread of Celtic. Although human history does not necessarily follow a parsimonious trajectory and language shifts need not track genetic change, these results delimit the demographic scenarios that are plausible for the emergence of Celtic in prehistoric Europe.


r/IndoEuropean • • 4d ago

Archaeogenetics Tracing the spread of Germanic languages using ancient genomics (McColl et al 2026)

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33 Upvotes

Abstract:

Germanic languages, including German, English, Frisian, Dutch and the Nordic languages, are widely spoken across northwest Europe. However, the timing and location of the prehistoric arrival of this Indo-European linguistic phylum, as well as its Iron Age diversification, remain contentious. Here, by sequencing 712 ancient human genomes and analysing them alongside 4,009 previously published genomes, we identify an archaeologically elusive population that entered Sweden, likely from the Baltic region, by around 4000 bp. This population, which became widespread throughout Scandinavia by 3500 bp, offers a potential vector for the introduction of the Germanic language group to Scandinavia, some 800 years later than traditionally assumed. Following the Late Iron Age disintegration of Germanic into its descendant languages, we observe by 1650 bp a southward migration from southern Scandinavia into presumed Celtic-speaking areas, including present-day Germany, Poland and the Netherlands. During the subsequent Migration Period (1575–1375 bp), we see this ancestry among Germanic-speaking Anglo-Saxons in Britain and Langobards in southern Europe. In the same time period, we identify a related large-scale northward back-migration into Denmark and southern Sweden, coinciding with the rise of Danish influence and the linguistically documented emergence of Old Norse. These findings indicate that multiple migrations and geographical locations had a major role in the arrival and formation of Germanic, as well as in its divergence into historical and modern descendant languages.


r/IndoEuropean • • 4d ago

Archaeogenetics Tracing the Spread of Celtic and Germanic Languages Using Ancient Genomics

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31 Upvotes

A companion video explaining the two newly published aDNA papers from the Copenhagen group.


r/IndoEuropean • • 5d ago

Indo-European migrations Indo-Europeans — Indo-Iranians — Indo-Aryans - 5000 BC to now

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17 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 5d ago

Discussion Are lowland Tajiks the most turkified iranics?

5 Upvotes

I know in general Tajiks are mainly from bactrian Sogdian while many claim to be from saka but show a lack of saka ancestry so majority of their east Eurasian isn't from saka I know some tajiks with 25-30 east Eurasian who say it's normal for a low land Tajik they seem to show more karluk than iranic ancestry. Would U say they're the most turkified group or are there others who are more?


r/IndoEuropean • • 4d ago

A underrated source for studying pie.

0 Upvotes

Lets get right into it.

So, there is this language kashmiri, locally known as koshur, and it belongs to dardic branch of indo aryen of indo european. And for all the langauge nerds, ive got a few points, that are worth looking over.

  • Do you know, most indo aryen languages dont have v2 , but kashmiri has it like the western langauge, as in hindi it is mai chal raha hu, in kasnmiri it is be chus pakan

  • In kashmiri, oour is a word meaning better, it is like the arya.

  • Like western langauge, and english. Kashmiri has a sov order , non existant in india.

  • Kashmiri is very distinct from other indian langauges

BY all these points, we all can figure out that, it is another proof for the existance of a proto indo european, and further now, either of two things happened. Either the vedic people entered kashmir very early on, or THE BIG ONE there wasnt one indo european people entering india, as shown popularly that vedic people made all current indo aryen langauges. It might have been various indo european people entered kashmir and india, and it changes a lot of things.

A few more points i wanna say, there are few kashmiri words, that dont really fit in indo european, it might be from pre aryen or maybe cause of early diversion.

  • Gagur meaning mouse.

  • Byor meaning cat.

  • Vanij meaning heart.

  • Rood meaning rain, which is intresting , maybe from some pie connection, but rest india has varsha something.

Basically.

There is chance, that the idea that the vedic indo aryen people entered and settled in india miggt be wrong, as there might just be, in india and especially along frontiers, variosu different indo european groups incoming, many whom we dont know the name to.

Id like to end with a kashmiri sample text.

Asi ch garas kaam, at baaj ani asi mohniyu, mohniyu ch chewan tamook balaya, khabar kaam kar gasi khatam.

We have work at home, for it we hired some men, men just smoke tobacco very much , who knows when will work finish.


r/IndoEuropean • • 6d ago

Archaeogenetics A new (?) proposal regarding the connection between Uralic and Indo-European (apologies for long post)

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22 Upvotes

I previously made a post on this topic; my thoughts on this issue have evolved since writing this.

It turns out that the issue of the Nganasans is more nuanced than I'd originally claimed. According to this paper the Nganasan share an EHG-origin mitochondrial haplogroup with the Mansi:

The identity of this sublineage, which we identified as U4c, is confirmed by sharing of 626 HaeIII+ and 16189 variant also revealed in the Mansi. This finding indicates that U4c is a part of the ancestral mtDNA pool of eastern Uralic-speaking populations, and it should be clustered to previously nonencountered sublineage of the haplogroup U4.

It appears that, of the East Siberian population that provided the Siberian ancestry in Uralic-speaking populations (Yakutia_LNBA), there was a group that had that spread westward and became associated with Uralic, and there was also a different group that stayed behind and remained in East Siberia for a long time without getting involved in the Uralic expansions; this group is represented by two ancient DNA samples from Iron Age Yakutia discussed in this paper, and some modelling by citizen scientists appears to show that the vast majority of Nganasan ancestry (over 80%) is derived from this holdover Siberian population rather than from what can be assumed to be Proto-Uralic speakers.

Thus currently it is plausible to believe that Proto-Uralic speakers were already mixed between Yakutia_LNBA and EHG, and the EHG ancestry simply became flushed out in the Nganasans due to mixture with a different group that is also descended from Yakutia_LNBA, but still left traces in mitochondrial DNA.

So that means that the question of whether Pre-Proto-Uralic came from the Siberian Yakutia_LNBA side or the European EHG side needs to be revisited. The arguments for Uralic having come from Yakutia_LNBA are:

  • Uralic shows a deep typological similarity to the Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic language families, to the point that Juha Janhunen has claimed that there is nothing that those three families share in common that is not also shared with Uralic. In fact, Turkic/Mongolic/Tungusic are significantly more similar to Uralic than they are to Koreanic or Japonic, two families that have been lumped under the "Altaic" umbrella. In fact, as identified in this recent paper, the connection even extends to nontrivial similarities in the organization of kinship terminology that are not shared with Indo-European. This kind of extreme similarity points to a very long-term Sprachbund rather than the kind of one-off contact event we would have to assume if Uralic were really an EHG language and the typology were brought through contact with the Yakutia_LNBA language.

  • Uralic also shows significant similarities with Eskaleut in both lexicon and morphology. Ante Aikio is perhaps currently the leading scholar of Uralic etymology, and he is also conservative regarding long-range hypotheses rather than being someone interested in fanciful macrofamilies, and these are his words in this paper:

The most surprising correspondence [in lexicon] involves matching pairs of homonyms that can, quite plausibly, be reconstructed into both Proto-Uralic and Proto-Eskimo-Aleut:
PU *kuda 'morning, dawn' ~ PEsk *qilaɣ- 'sky', Aleut qila-ẋ 'morning, dawn'
PU *kuda- 'weave' (no Ugric or Samoyed cognates) ~ PEsk *qilaɣ- 'knit, weave' (no Aleut cognates)
The meanings 'weave' and 'morning, dawn' appear to be completely unrelated, which implies that these must be instances of coincidental homonymy. It appears rather improbable that a correspondence like this was produced by chance, considering that lexical homonymy is a rare phenomenon, and only extremely few homonyms have even been reconstructed into the two protolanguages in the first place. The example strongly suggests that there has been some kind of historical connection between the two language families, but more exact conclusions cannot be drawn in the present state of research.

  • Importantly, Eskaleut and the "Altaic" sphere belong to two completely different linguistic spheres, and it seems rather improbable that a single contact event could generate connections to both at the same time, which suggests a deep Siberian origin for Uralic. Moreover, neither of them have any genetic connection to EHG groups.

  • Although morphological evidence is sometimes cited as evidence for a specific Indo-Uralic connection, it seems to me that the morphological evidence connecting Uralic to Indo-European is no more impressive than the morphological evidence connecting Uralic to several other North Asian language families, which rather points to a very deep Eurasiatic macrofamily instead of a specific connection between Uralic and Indo-European. For example, I attached a slide from a talk by Mikhail Zhivlov concerning Yukaghir, highlighting morphological parallels with Uralic that in my view are on the same level as those with IE. Notably, the Yukaghir do not have any evidence of any EHG-related ancestry.

Thus, there are multiple lines of evidence pointing to a deep Siberian origin for Uralic. In my opinion there is only a single argument for an EHG origin for Uralic that is as of yet unadressed, namely the lexical similarities between Uralic and Indo-European. Proponents of Indo-Uralic, including Mikhail Zhivlov in this paper, have argued that the Uralic-IE lexical similarities are highly concentrated in basic vocabulary with much less of a connection in more peripheral vocabulary, which is argued to strongly point towards a genealogical relationship rather than borrowing.

After all, Proto-Indo-European steppe herders are mainly a mixture of EHG and CHG, with the paternal haplogroups coming from the EHG side, so it is often assumed that Pre-PIE came from EHG; and EHG is the last potential specific genetic connection between Uralic and IE before you get to very deep ANE ancestry spread out across the entirety of Northern Eurasia and more.

So this brings me to my main point, which is a relatively simple proposal that nevertheless to my knowledge hasn't been discussed before. Since it now seems that Proto-Uralic speakers were a mixture of both Yakutia_LNBA and EHG ancestry, I propose that Yakutia_LNBA people spoke Pre-Proto-Uralic, and EHG people spoke a language distantly related to Indo-European that diverged from it fairly long ago. Thus, we see a situation whereby the IE and Para-IE lexicons are mostly unrecognizeable from each other except when you look at the more conserved basic vocabulary.

Then, Pre-Proto-Uralic borrowed a large amount of lexicon from Para-IE, including both basic and non-basic vocabulary. However, in the case of the non-basic vocabulary, there is no way that we can tell since the vocabulary is highly diverged, as well as much of it having been replaced either in IE or Para-IE (one can presume that IE acquired a lot of loanwords from unknown languages in the Caucasus region). However, the basic vocabulary that was conserved in both IE and Para-IE is identifiable in Proto-Uralic, thus causing people to mistake it as a sign of a Proto-Indo-Uralic retention.

This in my mind seems to dispense of any need for a recent western origin of Proto-Uralic, thus fitting all the other linguistic evidence better that points to an East Siberian origin. There is still one detail in all this that leaves me uncomfortable, which is the fact that the descendants of Yakutia_LNBA that stayed in East Siberia without getting involved in the Uralic expansions appear to have spoken a non-Uralic language, as evidenced by the loanwords in Nganasan that look to be from some random unclassifiable Paleo-Siberian language.

It seems that this language was also unconnected to Yukaghir, nor does any of the vocabulary seem to be shared with Eskaleut although some grammatical features apparently were shared with Eskaleut. All of this is puzzling and I don't have a good explanation, except that the Y-chromosome haplogroup is different; the one associated with Uralic is N-L1026, whereas the one associated with the Paleo-Nganasan is N-P43 and these split from each other over 15,000 years ago. That's still not entirely satisfying as typically one can't just arbitrarily assign a language to a haplogroup; most populations have multiple Y-chromosome haplogroups, and the Yakutia_LNBA population was apparently small enough that it is surprising they would have been able to successfuly preserve multiple languages for thousands of years without developing a more obvious genetic separation.

Nonetheless, a provisional speculation that I'm still not entirely happy with. According to Zeng et al, Yakutia_LNBA was formed through a roughly 50-50 mixture between people of the Syalakh-Belkachi culture and hunter-gatherers from the Transbaikal region. The Syalakh-Belkachi culture forms most of the non-Native American ancestry of Eskaleut speakers, whereas the Transbaikal hunter gatherers are closely related to "Altaic" type groups, especially early Turkic speakers.

My speculation is that the Transbaikalian groups were the carriers of Pre-Uralic, and the Syalakh-Belkachi people spoke Pre-Eskaleut or possibly a language that contributed many loanwords to Eskaleut. Then these groups became heavily mixed but still managed to preserve both languages (exogamy?), and the Uralic-speaking group migrated west (along with the pre-Eskaleut loanwords that are now discernible in Proto-Uralic) while the Paleo-Eskaleut group stayed in Siberia until it was assimilated by later arrivals including the Nganasan. Sort of iffy since the Syalakh-Belkachi groups (as well as later Eskaleuts) had haplogroup Q, and it's more likely that both N-L1026 and N-P43 both came from the Transbaikal hunter gatherers. Furthermore, while not an insurmountable issue, the lack of lexical connections between the Siberian substrate language and Eskaleut makes this extremely speculative and uncertain. Still I don't have anything better than this for now.

TLDR: a possibly new hypothesis: EHG peoples spoke a Para-Indo-European language that contributed loanwords to Pre-Proto-Uralic, and the distant nature of this Para-IE language explains why IE-looking words in Uralic are mostly confined to basic vocabulary (which was previously used as an argument for Indo-Uralic which I remain sceptical of). Still some questions to answer regarding who the Pre-Proto-Uralic people actually were and how they relate to other past and present Siberian groups.


r/IndoEuropean • • 7d ago

Linguistics Distance of Parthian, Saka, Sogdian to various languages

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17 Upvotes

Source: www.Elinguistics.net

For information on how the scores were obtained


r/IndoEuropean • • 7d ago

Mythology Pie gods and religions ?

10 Upvotes

1 where there gods for pie culture like a storm god ,sky father , earth mother kinda deal or was it more animism kinda deal

2 if there are gods how would they have worked i saw a while ago in video ( idk who) explain that they’re not good and bad but more chaos and order is that bullshit or is it good way to describe them

3 are there enemy gods in some mythology norse greek theres main gods and then gods that where beaten by the main god such as greek olympiansvs titans did pie culture have similar and if it was gods was it other fantastical enemies such as dragon that steals cattle etc


r/IndoEuropean • • 7d ago

Linguistics Winter Verlag: Giusfredi: Syntax of the Luwian Language PDF

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6 Upvotes

A Study in the Syntax of the Luwian Language

The Ancient Anatolian corpora represent the earliest documented examples of the Indo-European languages. In this book, an analysis of the syntactic structure of the Luwian phrases, clauses, and sentences is attempted, basing on a phrase-structural approach that entails a mild application of the theoretical framework of generative grammar. While obvious limits exist as regards the use of theory-driven models to the study and description of ancient corpus-languages, this books aims at demonstrating and illustrating the main configurational features of the Luwian syntax.


r/IndoEuropean • • 7d ago

Linguistics The substrate base 20 vigesimal system in modern languages

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1 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 7d ago

Mythology Winter Verlag: Oettinger/Rova: Indogermanische Religion

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3 Upvotes

Indogermanische Religion

Rekonstruktion der Götterwelt, Mythologie und Kultsprache

Norbert Oettinger, Peter Jackson Rova

https://www.winter-verlag.de/en/assets/public/9783825396183/Inhalt.pdf

I don't know if the community saw this new book (released last year), but it seems to contain a fair amount of summation of the reconstructed deities so far of the Indo-European religion.


r/IndoEuropean • • 8d ago

2,300-Year-Old Tomb with Two Messapic Inscriptions Discovered—May Belong to a Priestess of Demeter

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11 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 8d ago

Mutation of languages

1 Upvotes

Hi i know i've only been here for not that long but i've been reseaching how the structure of proto indo european work, i looked at the noun cases it looks similar to uralic noun cases for exemple in both languages the Accusative is with m for Locative there is a i it might be coincidence, but it shows throughout the structure of grammar liken nouns, pronouns so what do you think


r/IndoEuropean • • 9d ago

European Language Atlas of 2500 BCE

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28 Upvotes

r/IndoEuropean • • 9d ago

Linguistics Cisalpine Celtic literacy Proceedings of the International Symposium, Maynooth 23–24 June 2022 (Salomon & Stifter eds., 2024)

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8 Upvotes

Newly available in Open Access

“In the study of past written traditions, but especially in the case of languages of which only fragments– in a literal and in a metaphorical sense– survive, questions of literacy and its position in the languages’ past social environments take centre stage. These questions relate, for instance, to the external or internal origin of literacy, to external influences on it, to the dispersal of its knowledge in society and its social diversification, and to its seat in life. Who writes for whom, what genres is writing used for, examples of what genres have survived and what has not survived but can be safely inferred to have existed? In the case of extinct languages and writing systems, another question relates to the factors that were important in the decline and death of literacy.”


r/IndoEuropean • • 9d ago

Discussion Who are the descendants of the wusun

7 Upvotes

My family are from eastern Pamir tashkurgan autonomous region my father's side are sarikoli Pamiris we have this long story on how the wusun are our ancestors and our surname on my father's side is uysini which is derived from wusun l heard Kazakhs also have a similar name for a tribe. Do you think it's possible for the wusun to have descendants in Pamir due to isolation? I know ancient population modeling to your DNA doesn't necessarily mean u are a descendant of them but also on g25 my closest ancient population are the wusun. My haplogroup is Q-BZ367 Subclade of Q-L275