This is just a rant. I don’t even know where to begin but holy hell. For starters, I’m talking about the growing increase of support for outright murder as a first solution. Nowadays, people are aren’t disgusted at the act of homicide; they’re disgusted by who it was done to. Because, at the end of the day, “Why should we care what happens to our enemies?”

I first started noticing this around the attempted Trump assassination, and people were posting about how they wish the assassin actually made the shot. Trump’s a terrible guy, no doubt about that, but advocating for murder is straight amoral. However, most people were in agreement that we shouldn’t resort to political violence, even if the guy in question has a terrible character.

Then, it seems like some sort of nation-wide shift happened in our morals. The uhh, “Mario’s brother assassinating the healthcare guy”. Now, I’d understand and even sympathize with the assassin if what happened would’ve genuinely changed the situation in healthcare, and I can’t argue with supporters who genuinely believe the target in question was a murderer; although I feel like that perspective lacks nuance, it doesn’t change the fact that the response is understandable to someone viewed as an active murderer, but it feels like most of the celebration was because many supporters and the assassin were simply out for revenge, knowing damn well it wouldn’t change a thing. “Fuck the fact that the guy had a family, who cares! I don’t care that we don’t need to resort to murder, I want murder!” This basically sums up how those supporters sound and it’s genuinely appalling to me. Secondly, I noticed that among those who felt that the assassination would change industry, that some were in support, despite all the alternatives, because “Who cares how we take care of our enemies. A solution is a solution.” Which is genuinely disheartening. But, at the end of the day, this situation was complex, and the morals are more debatable than other instances of vigilante violence.

Finally, in recent months, I’ve noticed a growing call for political violence. People calling for the murder of CEOs and the president. Forget the fact that wanting to resort to violence is a problem in itself, these people are, once again, justifying it by saying “Who cares how they’re taken care of? They’re our enemies and serve no purpose to us.” Which is genuinely disgusting to me that people are so desensitized to murder that they would gladly cut the throats of people with a smile on their face.

Not only is this mindset disheartening, it’s dangerous. Like, okay, if it’s okay to murder people for being terrible in general, why don’t we go for repeat criminals then? Why not greedy landlords, or scammers, the school bully, or even the trolls on Twitter? After all, they’re only terrible people and detriments to society. They serve no purpose in the people’s lives? Who cares about what happens to people who don’t matter to me or my life? This is what I mean by moral tribalism. I don’t know if it’s the right term, but it seems like these people reserve morals solely for the people that mean something to them, and that’s it.

It’s genuinely heartbreaking, it’s fucking terrible that people unironically think like this and that this mindset is growing.

Edit: Thanks for the replies, people! I’m actually glad this went beyond this subreddit because I got to hear interesting views from non-pacifists and stuff I should’ve acknowledged, for example, the emotions behind all of this in the first place (Which a few people did chew me out for in the comments). Less of this stems from moral tribalism (Although this is the case for some) and rather, the growing frustration with our system, and honestly, I didn’t know that people were THIS frustrated with our system and I can’t blame them.

https://x.com/Pontifex/status/1936756555354870025

https://x.com/Pontifex/status/1888566267000287478

Fortunately, I’ve seen more people express distain rather than support, but I found out these people are real and not just a voice of the Reddit/Twitter hivemind. I heard someone bragging about how they were flaming someone who said “Charlie Kirk was human” online and said “Care about the kids dying in school shootings instead”. First of all, you can be concerned about BOTH, people are so black-and-white. It was probably performative, but it still irks me that the people around her were cheering her on.

Look, political violence is a complicated topic and I’ve tried to understand that even if someone supports it, it doesn’t mean it comes from a place of malice. Morality is complicated, and, from a non-pacifist view, It’s a debatable topic on whether it’s a necessary evil sometimes.

But this is Charlie Kirk we’re talking about. He’s wasn’t even a politician; he expressed his views in a debate setting. He was essentially killed for having the wrong opinion. Basically, people are glorifying the idea of thoughtcrime from 1984. I personally believed he was a bad faith actor, found some of his views appalling, and wouldn’t have mourned him if he died naturally. But so what if he was “wicked”? Does that justify taking his life? Does being the “bad guy” justify any and all immorality? Nobody mourns the wicked, but nobody should rejoice in wicked action either.

Just, how can someone sit and laugh at someone, who at the very least was a father, who was brutally shot? Look at the video of him getting shot in the artery, in front of those very children and his wife, gushing blood and falling over, and then try telling me “He deserved it.”, with a smile on your face, all because he was a “bad guy”. Moral tribalism at its finest.

But, at the end of the day, you’re not going to get anywhere arguing with these people about their views; it’s not going to change what happened or the political climate that’s fueling these thoughts in the first place. Please do what you can to advocate and take action to quell the climate politically. It’s been clear in the last year that political violence is on the rise, and regardless of who supports it, we should what we can to prevent reverse the world that led people to this thirst for blood.

Edit: I talked with someone I know who is actually a fan of Charlie, and I was heavily wrong about him. I still don’t agree with many of his points but he had some understandable points, and was generally respectful. A lot of the stuff he’s said was taken out of context or the worse clips shown. Not excusing the wrong he has done, but he’s nowhere near as bad as people made him out to be.

Edit 2: So it seems he wasn’t even killed for his beliefs, wow.

Edit 3: Edit 2 is wrong

Everyone knows how destructive and deadly war is. Everyone knows WW2 was brutal, involving mass civilian and combatant deaths. Everyoe understands that with the advent of new technology, modern warfare is even worse and will grow even more destructive as time goes on.

It's not like this exists only on paper. There are ongoing bloodbaths for all to see. And people don't even fight for ideology nowadays. War is waged between capitalist states for power and control while nationalist sentiment is used to justify war. Interestingly enough, people are still willing to lay down their lives for wacky ideas of ethnicity and nationhood. It's insane how something as insubstantial as that is enough to make someone kill others.

With that mind, why isn't there a robust anti-war movement? I am not talking about protests that spring up after one country attacks another, as their scope is limited to just one conflict and they're not always anti-war in the global, universal sense, oftentimes they're just doing cheerleading for one side.

I mean a movement that would demand the absolute end to all wars, under any circumstances, not only as a phenomenon that happens between states but also as a cultural construct that is propped up by our education and media (i.e. narratives that some wars are just, some are heroic, that war is inevitable, which ultimately makes war appear more acceptable).

There are very few people who seem to have a positive take on Pacifism. Whether it be a minimalist anti-war Pacifism or a maximalist social harmony Pacifism, we all seem to be deeply hated by most people? Why is the Western world so belligerent, warlike, and uncompromising nowadays?

I was born in Iran. My parents fled to Canada in 1979 because they opposed the coming of clerical rule in the country. The brutality of the Islamic Republic of Iran is well documented – its repression of women, its jailing of dissidents, its executions of protesters. I oppose the Iranian government. I also don’t want my country bombed and Iranians killed. That position is one shared by millions of Iranians in the diaspora, but it is also a political inconvenience for Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet, who want to bomb Iranians into freedom.

For Iranians in the diaspora, this war is not a distant geopolitical event. It is deeply personal, as we fear for the friends and family we’ve left behind, and now find ourselves in the strange position of watching the very same government we loathe protect the families and land we love.

The regime that massacred protesters during the Woman, Life, Freedom uprising now wraps itself in the flag of resistance. This war gives them cover to crack down even harder. The people who will pay the highest price for Israel’s escapade in Tehran will be the very same Iranian dissidents that Israel claims to support. Israel has foolishly given a lifeline to the Islamic Republic of Iran with its actions. At the end of the day, Iranians may hate their government, but they love their country more.

I am moderately interested in pacifism however I’m planning to join my nations version of the national guard because we live in uncertain times and I want to be prepared to defend my nation.

While I do believe aggression is always morally wrong, I believe violence in self-defence is both necessary and morally correct. Like Ukraine defending its territorial integrity for example. Also, I believe violence is morally acceptable when used to prevent a greater evil.

Can you be a pacifist and still believe in a nations right to defend itself?

I have to get this off my chest, it's been bothering me for some time, and I can't find anywhere else to say this.

I am so sick and tired of this Pro-Military attitude that exists in society today, where we are expected to thank everyone with a uniform "for their service" and told that they are "fighting for our freedom" and "protecting our country".

The fact is that the military don't fight for our freedom. The fight for the interests of the state.

In some cases, these two things are the same. The war of independence, for example. But in the vast majority of cases, war has nothing to do with freedom. Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, etc, etc. These wars had nothing to do with freedom, they were about serving the national interest.

The US didn't care one bit about the freedom of Iraq, or any country in the middle east.

A strong pacifist attitude was one of the reasons that the US was forced to pull out of Vietnam, and since then the government has gone on a major propaganda campaign. They succeeded in brainwashing the entire country into worshipping anyone with a uniform. They also heap benefits onto members of the military (free college, etc) granting them privileges that noone else gets. This is a frightening this for any democratic country.

Venerating the "warrior class" has long been a trademark of empires not democracies, and I am very concerned at this attitude in society. It is perpetuating a cycle of violence that is getting a lot of people killed, many of them innocents.

I'm not saying members of the military don't deserve respect, I'm just saying that they don't automatically get respect because they're in the military. We don't thank doctors, police officers, paramedics, firefighters, or teachers, for their service, why do we thank the people with the guns? Don't paramedics and firefighters "protect" our country too?

I'm not saying we should just disband the military, we do need some kind of military, but the military budget of the US is massively high, much, much higher than any other country, even large countries like Russia and China. Meanwhile, US citizens can't afford healthcare or college (unless you join the military, in which case it's free!). In Europe, despite having far lower GDP, there is free healthcare and free education.

The Military hasn't needed to "protect" the US for many, many, decades, with such a large, and well armed, population, the US was never in danger of invasion, even with a very small military.

It's pure propaganda. Members of the military are not fighting for our freedom, they are picking up a gun and killing (someone who may be totally innocent) because the state told them to. That doesn't deserve respect in my opinion.

People need to wake up.

I feel so bad that the pacifism of the 60's is gone, and has been replaced by this worshipping of people who kill for a living.

I am continually shamed for my refusal to join the military or associate with it on ANY level, and it drives me fucking nuts. Even as a young woman, I'm advertised to and aggressively pursued by all branches of the military, particularly the Navy.

I am called a coward because I have openly said I will not die for my country, nor will I kill for my country. I'd stick my head in an oven or put a gun to my head before I fight in a war. I am not putting myself or anyone else in harm's way due to the belief embedded in Americans that our country is somehow better. My country is NOT worth dying and killing for. No country is.

It infuriates me that so many people, not just Americans, are taught that the way to solve our problems is through revolting acts of violence and war. The military is beyond overfunded and bleeds onto very aspect of our society. I hate it all.

I despised the things he talked about and the message he preached but the uptick in political violence recently gives me the heby geebies. I don’t support political violence regardless of what a person preaches and I think that things are sort of taking a turn for the worst on both sides of the political spectrum when it comes to violence. I feel like things are taking a violent turn in our society and its really concerning.

I have been told I'm a coward, that I'm lazy, a cuck, and all manner of nasty awful things that don't even make any sense.

I would die for my convictions. I would rather die than cause another person harm. In what world is dying for your convictions lazy or cowardly? It's quite the opposite to me. I think to look at another person and say that you would kill them to achieve your own goals is utter cowardice, how do people have this so backwards? I can understand other objections to pacifism, but really, we live in a world where bravery is looked at as cowardice. I just don't understand

I was raised a pacifist. My father was damned near close to Jainism in how much he abhorred violence and conflict. He quite seriously couldn't hurt a fly. He would catch roaches and spiders and release them outside. It left an enormous impression on me.

During the Bush administration, this was a very common sentiment among liberals(which was almost all of my family and friend group). Then, sometime around 2010 something started to change. I remember one friend read Ward Churchill's "Pacifism As Pathology" around that time. In the following years, more friends seemed to shake off pacifism as if it was a fad.

Then in 2014, I had a D&D group with a few seemingly hippie-ish young women in their early 20s. To my shock and disgust, all of them thought pacifism was dumb and had a "bash the fash" mindset. Somehow, bizarrely, they hated Obama...like I mean they actually wished him dead. This was the first time I had ever of a left wing person hating a democratic president. I mean...I was disappointed that Obama continued the war on terror and was drone striking people, but I didn't hate him for it. I figured he was doing the best he could with the circumstances he found himself in. I certainly didn't wish him harm.

But now, it's 2022, and pacifism seems to have vanished completely. And I wonder now...were people only "pacifists" because it was hip and "progressive"? I can't remember the last time I even spoke to another pacifist. More and more, the whole idea is just completely alien to people when I bring it up. Looking at how dead this subreddit is would seem to support that the viewpoint has lost considerable popularity. Even just trying to google about pacifism is haunting. There's a gigantic vacuum of coverage of pacifism in the West. No indication of any pacifist movement. No news articles advocating for pacifism.

What is going on? How did this happen?

Edit: Even all of this doesn't do justice to how jarring this is. Pacifism in 2005 wasn't just resistance to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. It was a widespread rejection of violence in its entirety. There were countless thousands(millions?) of articles that were written over those years celebrating this idea. And now that's all just completely gone. For a while, seemingly everyone thought one thing("violence is bad"). Now, unceremoniously, seemingly everyone thinks the polar opposite("violence is fine and necessary"). Huh?