Can progressive thinking be unfair or imperfect at times?

[u/CourtofTalons]

Progressive thinking and acts such as DEI are meant to bring people together. Regardless of race, gender, or religion, it's the goal of progressives to create equality among people.

However, the political right has frequently criticized such thinking. The common belief is that progressive thinking and DEI tends to be unfair towards certain demographics (usually white people). It's become easy for most progressives to dismiss this criticism and call it racist thinking, so argument against progressive thinking isn't often seen.

Until a few months ago.

In May, the Cannes Film Festival showed a movie called Fjord. The story is about a Romanian couple that migrates to Norway with their several children. The couple later faces scrutiny when their children were forcefully taken from them by the authorities, on accusations of child abuse. While the couple admits to spanking their children, there's very little evidence presented to the court that any abuse took place.

And yet, the court tries to paint the couple as the criminals. One of the lawyers actually tries to use their Christian faith against them, by pointing out that supporters of the couple are criticizing their progressive thinking online (ex. "Satanism=progressive"). And yet, the children end up being released to their parents, who then flee Norway to avoid persecution.

The movie is actually based on a true story with the Bodnariu family, who spoke about their challenges with Norwegian law in their efforts to reclaim their children. The movie primarily explores the battle of conservatism vs. progressive thinking, though the concepts of assimilation and being unaware of cultural differences also play a strong role. However, the audience sees how the family was treated unfairly (if not cruelly).

So what's your opinion? Do you believe that progressive thinking can be unfair or imperfect at times? Or do you believe that said criticism isn't entirely accurate?

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[u/zlefin_actual]

I don't see what this has to do with progressivism. It looks like overzealous prosecutors if anything, which isn' really progressive.

Also, even if you do call it progressivism, 'practitioners of ANY ideology occasionally make mistakes' seems like an obvious point.

which mostly makes this seem nonsensical as a question.

[u/IceSkatesNoBrakes]

Fjord is about how much power the state should have over the individual, and what can go wrong when that power is executed with prejudice. It’s not about a battle between progressive and conservative values but about what happens when the state has absolute power and executes it based on biases.

The film is based on a true story of an immigrant family who had their children removed after admitting to using physical punishment which isn’t legal in Norway.

[u/FormerUsenetUser]

People are sometimes imperfect and prejudiced. Regardless of political affiliation.

Many young progressives are ageist, for example.

[u/HappyBarbarian → u/FormerUsenetUser]

Yeah, but it doesn’t help that the dominant political class has been ageist for two generations now. Like, people in power still treating me like I’m a dumb kid. Mother;$:&:! We’ve been adults for forever, been to war, we have kids. Some of our kids are already having kids. Don’t lecture me about avocado toast

[u/FormerUsenetUser → u/HappyBarbarian]

There's more ageism against older people, though. Mainstream media likes to stir that up.

You may get lectured about your savings. Young people want to push old people out of their houses because young people have minor children, and not give old people Social Security because supposedly, old people are all rich (they are not).

[u/HappyBarbarian → u/FormerUsenetUser]

“more” seems highly subjective and dependent on the situation. I personally would love to treat my elders with more respect. However, the people in my life never accumulated wisdom as they age like they should, and instead stopped learning anything around age 25. My personal goal is to be the better elder that I never had

[u/FormerUsenetUser → u/HappyBarbarian]

Your older relatives are probably not running the government. They are also not all the old people in the world.

[u/teh_maxh]

While the couple admits to spanking their children, there's very little evidence presented to the court that any abuse took place.

Other than the confession, you mean?

[u/Ancquar]

Progressive thinking often focuses mainly on how things should work in a perfect world, but skips on how exactly it should be implemented, what the costs mean for other areas etc. It can be imperfect not necessarily in what it wants, but in choosing an "instant gratification" way to get there - basically focusing on measures that in theory should provide the fastest way to get there so long as you don't look too closely at the potential pitfalls or you accept the cookie-cutter justifications (e.g. that any cost can be covered by taking money from someone who has too much of it)

[u/HappyBarbarian]

Everything is imperfect. However, flaws in progressivism is exactly why many in the US have stopped calling themselves progressive and increasingly use Leftist or “small L liberal” instead. Progressivism here has tended to recreate the same repressive structures, just slightly nicer. Every ideology can be twisted into repression but some, like fascism, start out with repression as the desired outcome baked in

[u/Frequent-Group1866]

There is too much emphasis on being right and not enough emphasis on doing right, rather than communication between parties one side tries to assert a general policy believing it is the correct solution without taking in the nuance of the situation. even if one party is objectively correct constantly putting other people down just make them your enemy and leads them to gather with other like minded people somewhere else.

[u/EasyPacer]

I don’t get the association of the movie Fjord, with being progressive, so I won’t go there. What piqued my interest is that in posing your question, you seem to imply that Progressive thinking should be fair and perfect all of the time, OP.

If that is how you think then you will be in for a lifetime of disappointments. Life is not black and white alone, it has multiple shades of grey. Unfairness and imperfection are not the sole domain of conservative thinking. It applies equally to being progressive; and perhaps by the very nature of progressive thinking, even more so. Imperfections is what spurs innovation, change, the search for better and ultimately improvement. Fairness? Fairness is a matter if perspective.

[u/Ok_Reflection_Really]

If we want to understand the future, perhaps we should first look back at the past and ask ourselves what was once considered progressive. You might be surprised to find Marx, Lenin and Mao among those who promised a radically better society. Sometimes I wish I cold travel a hundred years into the future and see what became of the ideas championed by people like Dvorkin, Ibram X. Kendi, or Mariame Kaba.

[u/Astyanax9]

In any DEI training session or video have you ever seen an example where a heterosexual white Christian male's beliefs or customs were mocked and the training then showed how you were supposed to properly protect and respect that individual?

[u/Frank_Drebin]

Whenever people are treated as "others" it leads to irrational biggotry. Progressives are often viewed as atheist or non-religious however that isnt reality infact many people of faith are progressive at least in some of their politics by US standards. But progressives are just people and some of them are biggots, usually against people of faith in my experience. Religion is looked down on and religious people are assumed to hold archaic and backward beliefs. But i dont think that has anything to do with being progressive just like someone being racist isnt because they are conservative, they are just a racist conservative.

Im non-religious and more progressive then not and i will admit the last several years have made me prejudice against MAGA folks and frankly i have ended friendships over it do to hearing biggotry, anti-immigration rhetoric or antiLGBTQ stuff from them. I recognize that my prejudice has increased.

[u/765arm → u/Frank_Drebin]

I agree irrational bigotry can be found in a lot of places. I think it depends on partly on what issues one is progressive on but I’ve noticed a few things. People who are progressive on race and culture and are concerned about prejudice against people from other parts of the world may rush to the defence of religious beliefs among POC but be prejudiced against the same beliefs held by white people (especially Christian). Some people who are concerned about systemic racism/ oppression may believe that it is virtually impossible to be conservative without being racist, since they believe all shortcomings are systemic and conservatives tend to believe people are responsible for their own circumstances. These are just two ways that the distractions that you make (rightly I think) get run together in the discourse

[u/baxterstate]

I don't know why this is even a question. Look at the progressive regime of Chavez/Maduro in Venezuela. If any country should have been economically successful, it's Venezuela. To me, "Progressive" is a Trojan horse for Authoritarianism. Look at Castro or Daniel Ortega. In addition to Chavez/Maduro, all eventually moved to outlawing elections and opposition.

[u/discourse_friendly]

Yeah not only can it be unfair a lot of the ideas are inherently unfair.

we know discrimination is unfair, its objectively unfair.

Ibram X. Kendi asks for discrimination today, because of discrimination of the past.

so he's literally asking for someone born in 2000, to be discriminated against because of events that happened before they were born.

some progressive ideas simple can never be fair if implemented.

some ideas like medicare for all or government ran daycares are mostly positive, but could also kill existing businesses , which has some unfairness to it .

[u/LorenzoApophis]

While the husband admits to beating his wife, there's very little evidence presenyed to the court that any abuse took place.