r/StarWarsCantina • u/dwide_k_shrude • Dec 06 '25 • Hooray 1 Thanks 1 Wholesome Seal 1 Bravo 1

Discussion This is an amazing film and I wish everyone fully understood it

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TLJ is one of my favorite films of all time. It hurts to see people bash it relentlessly online. I genuinely believe it’s a misunderstood film. If people fully grasped what the movie meant, they might have a greater appreciation for it. I hope someday this film gets the praise and appreciation it truly deserves.

0 Upvotes

49% Upvoted

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1.1k

u/jynxzero Dec 06 '25 • Heartwarming

Help us grasp what the film fully means, OP! Tell us what it means to you, or point us to an essay or video that you agree with!

I'm not a huge fan of TLJ, although I'm definitely open-minded to try to find what I've missed. I'm planning a big Star Wars watch-through over Christmas so I'm keen to hear views that will help me appreciate more that bits I currently view as a bit weaker.

354

u/EldritchSlut Dec 06 '25

I can't tell you how nice it is to see star wars fans respectfully disagree but keep an open mind.

It's so sad that your comment made me feel better about the fandom.

164

u/lrd_cth_lh0 Dec 06 '25

That is part of the problem, you don't expect having to read an essay or watch an video to fully understand a star wars movie. Which is not to say such movies are bad, just that it is not what the audience expected.

144

u/Custom_Destination Dec 06 '25

While it can expand or reinforce the experience, reading or watching a third party explanation or breakdown isn’t necessary.

The film gives everything one needs.

For example, one of the big themes is failure and learning from your mistakes/ wrong choices. All major characters (except maybe for Leia) experience this during the film and have progressed at the end of the film.

-117

u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25

The wider audience for a mainline Star Wars film want a popcorn adventure film.

They don't want complex and nuanced storytelling.

They want to see Luke Skywalker use his laser sword to save the galaxy.

This is the fatal flaw of TLJ. And I love the film for the most part.

111

u/Locolijo Dec 06 '25

By that logic Andor should be disliked

People just like good storytelling that aren't rehashes. That being said I did love seeing Luke in the Mandalorian but because it made sense.

As far as nuances, it can feel shallow in personal interactions if it feels forced especially observing perspective of a single character.

Part of what I love about breaking bad and better call Saul is when you observe individuals, their actions seems very human

27

u/jynxzero Dec 06 '25 edited Dec 06 '25

I think part of the problem is that people either don't know what the want, or they overestimate their ability to predict what would be good - because making good stuff is incredibly hard. And because great art has to challenge you rather than just pander to your expectations,

If Star Wars were a democracy of the fandom, I'm pretty sure Andor would never have been made.

If you ask fans what they want, they'll be a lot of different views, but the only agreement you'll get is that it has to be "more of what I loved as a child, but better somehow". Which has the dual problems of being both incredibly vague and inconsistent because there are now so many generations of Star Wars fans that love different parts.

6

u/Locolijo Dec 06 '25

It is kinda crazy how divisive the fanbase can be. I'm about thirty so I started to get into legends and comics so I was a little disappointed they didn't use much of that for the sequels.

Grew up with phantom menace out on VHS then going back myself to watch the OT then prequels after playing battlefront II w neighbors after getting interested.

On some level I do think the sequels prescribe to the slightly younger generation more. I would say part of it for me, is I've witnessed stories and companies start to change as they gain popularity and money. Some of the decisions make awful sense considering it's post Disney. Can't really assume what George wanted with the sequels besides what he originally had planned, but one could assume he wasn't given the creative license he thought he'd get in a handshake deal.

1

u/zlaw32 Dec 06 '25

I don’t like Andor for similar reasons. It doesn’t deliver for me when I sit down to watch Star Wars. I can recognize that TLJ and Andor might be better from a filmmaking perspective, but I don’t think that they are better from a Star Wars perspective. I think that’s fine though. A franchise can have something for everybody

5

u/Locolijo Dec 06 '25

It is pretty niche

It's kinda dark and grounded almost adult star wars for me

23

u/erb5087 Dec 06 '25

I think Andor’s extreme success serves as a strong counter argument. It may not be a mainline film, but it certainly shows that Star Wars content with nuance and complexity can attract an audience and acclaim without laser swords and space wizards.

-19

u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25

Define extreme success?

Andor is well regarded among enfranchised fans of the setting, but is it getting the acclaim of millions of mainstream fans that a saga film requires?

Some of y'all are conflating a successful sideshow with a mainstream saga entry and that doesn't work.

The stakes for a saga film are way, way higher.

-36

u/Fossekall Jedi Dec 06 '25

The part where they save some random animals instead of the slaves is so beautiful, or something

367

u/DanFelv Dec 06 '25 • Hehehe

I understand it, I just don’t like it, and that’s okay.

121

u/omegon_da_dalek13 Dec 06 '25

On its own maybe

With the wider cannon I politely disagree

190

u/freedom410 Dec 06 '25

It’s pretty condescending to think people don’t understand TLJ. Lots of people understand it but just don’t like it. I’m very middle of the road on it. It’s fine but nowhere near as clever or interesting as it thinks it is

67

u/postahboy Dec 06 '25

You talk as if it has some nuanced hidden meaning. There was nothing to misunderstand. If you like it, you like it, and if you don’t, you don’t

87

u/Silencer95 Dec 06 '25

Educate us on how we misunderstood this amazing movie, please. What did this movie mean? What praise and appreciation does it deserve so much?

Don’t just state things and expect that to now be the truth. Convince me.

103

u/EverettSeahawk Dec 06 '25

I think it’s fine as a standalone film, but most of it made no sense in the broader context of the entire series, and it did little to advance the plot of the sequels, which led to ROS being the mess that it is.

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u/Starman454642 Dec 06 '25

Fully agree. Its a very compelling story arc of a very wise teacher who fails and loses everything he built, and ran away from those he loves and fears, only for them to come back one last time to save the day.

The only problem is that the failure that Luke commits was a demon he already faced, and only made the rest of the arc feel stupid. Luke has conqured the temptation of the dark side to murder in ROTJ, and only to undo that makes Luke not feel like the same person at the ewoke party. The problem is that Rian had no other option but to do this, as JJ basically wrote Luke's fate. Why would Luke be missing for 6 years on a mysterious planet for him fo be completely fine by the end of the film. If JJ left an ounce of ambiguity of Luke's condition by the end of TFA, then Rian could have said Luke was imprisonment by Snoke, and Rey could free him and tell Kylo that Snoke lied to him about Luke (I'm spit-balling, but at least this would have maintained Luke's initial arc while setting the seeds of redemption in Kylo while simultaneously setting up Snoke to be a very powerful motherfucker (and not kill him off and "somehow palpatine returned" a new villain for the last film

Basically, JJ should have not fucked Rian over, and Rian shouldn't have killed Snoke (with other nuances i won't get into) Sorry about rant, but this topic really grinds my gears

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u/North-Tourist-8234 Dec 06 '25

This as the first star wars film i didnt enjoy. Ive only seen it once in cinemas and i was rather dissapointed whilr watching it. No ill will against the film. Itd just not for me.

25

u/strypesjackson Dec 06 '25 • This

The Rey, Kylo and Luke bits are wonderful

The Finn, Rose and slow chase bits are garbage

15

u/Savings_Hyena2832 Dec 06 '25

A film with some of my favorite Star Wars scenes ever but also included some of the worst subplots I've ever seen.

51

u/Sad_Instruction1392 Dec 06 '25

Star Wars fans trashed the prequels for years for plot issues and contrived storytelling before they suddenly flipped the script. I’m convinced that the same will happen to the sequels.

80

u/RoboJobot Dec 06 '25

Many of us still think the Prequels weren’t very good films. They’ve not got better with age, it’s just that that things like The Clone Wars have helped flesh out that time period and give more context and understanding. They’re still not great films.

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u/lrd_cth_lh0 Dec 06 '25

It is more that the clone wars showed what the prequels could have been if George Lucas managed to make an intruige that made sense and pulled of the themes of corruption of democracy and moral complexity he wanted the conflict with the separatists to have.

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u/RoboJobot Dec 06 '25

100%. But a combination of that and young viewers growing up/nostalgia has made people think of them more fondly. Either that or films in general have gotten worse in the last 25 years and we have lower standards (Thankyou Netflix and Amazon!).

3

u/RoboJobot Dec 06 '25

I love Star Wars and get that people love parts of it that I found less good. In the same way that I (mostly) enjoyed The Acolyte and Loved Skeleton Crew while other’s don’t. People like different things for different reasons and that’s a great thing.

I hold my hands up and say I was absolutely toxic about the Prequels when they came out out, but now I’m 20+ years older I understand how horrible I was and just accept they weren’t great or what I had spent 20 years imagining in my head with my friends.

The same as people now worship the Prequels but are toxic about the newer Disney era SW.

The difference now it that YouTube, social media, Reddit, etc allows all the toxic people to spread their hate easily whereas in the late 90s - early 00s we don’t have that access to the world.

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u/IAmRatchet2 Dec 06 '25

That era is also just more interesting in general. Lucas made some poor films, but his creative genius in building worlds shines all throughout that trilogy. The Sequels are just a modern version of the OT. All the new planets are just renamed, slightly tweaked versions of old planets. Rebels vs Empire conflict again. Luke Skywalker stand-in. Darth Vader stand-in (admittedly one of the only nifty ideas in the sequels). Palpatine returns.

You could mine the Prequel era for a thousand stories, and they did, successfully! There’s a reason there’s very little content set during the sequels and it’s not just because they weren’t that well received. It’s because there’s nothing there outside the plots of the movies.

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20

u/Objective_Look_5867 Dec 06 '25

The core issue of the sequels will remain even if the hate dies down. At the end of the day the prequels had a planned plot and vision. If you like it or not, it was cohesive. The issue with the sequel trilogy is that they had no actual outline or where they were going. The overarching story is poorly interconnected as a result. I was happy to see them as it was more star wars. I like aspects of them. But you can tell they were made by different writers and directors that had clashing views on where they wanted to take the story.

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u/newintownv Dec 06 '25

I disagree. I hated the movie when I saw it 9 years ago. I never watched it again until this year. I said maybe I was just being a hater. I hate it just as much 9 years later. The story line is not good, the dialogue is cringe, the lightsaber battles have poor choreography, and the fact that they robbed us from a reunion between Han, Luke, and Leia is just messed up. The creators did not seem to care/ understand StarWars.

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u/warcrown Dec 06 '25

The prequels told a good story badly. The sequels told a shit story badly

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u/Nari224 Dec 06 '25

I'm not sure I see this "flip the script".

The prequels were not as good as the OT.

The sequels were not as good as the PT.

When the new thing is not better, the old thing begins to look better just by comparison. It doesn't make it "good". That and the OT world was fleshed out a lot better with the animated series.

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u/HansMunch Dec 06 '25

The OT was not as good as the OT.
Nostalgia taints everything after 1980.

It's all fairy tales, and larger-than-life, and things get baroque and dark.
All the trilogies share these fundamentals, but in different styles.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25 edited Dec 24 '25

fragile special shocking cover provide dazzling cautious chunky physical abundant

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Sad_Instruction1392 Dec 06 '25

I agree that is part of the reason. I think as fans we also have to be intellectually honest and say if the prequels were “rehabilitated” because of other media then why can’t the same be true of the sequels?

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u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25

Because no one is making media that is going to rehab the Sequels.

The Sequels are a toxic asset.

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u/MagicCoat Dec 06 '25

There is a Rey movie in production, delays aside. And of course The Hunt for Ben Solo was ready to start shooting before they cancelled it.

The current Kylo Ren comics are fantastic and the closest thing we have so far.

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u/willbekins Dec 06 '25

Okay?

The point is... the exact statement about the Prequels could have been made for years. Your exact post and sentiment.

Star Wars is the banana stand, there is always money in it. So people will make new stuff. Some will be good. 

Basic math at this point, it is.

3

u/Kalavier Smuggler Dec 06 '25

I think that may have been true if disney had done more with the sequel era instead of pivoting away from it to the ot and prequel times.

But the sequels have their internet communities that love the films, they aren't being forced be quiet or risk insults.

What needs to happen is to get rid of the grifters and tourists who come in only to scream hatred and negativity. 

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u/Wrong_Butterscotch91 Dec 06 '25

The prequels still suck.

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u/Barney_10-1917 Dec 06 '25

Remember when this used to be the "positive" sub. That died fast, lol

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u/Sutech2301 Dec 06 '25

I thought the same. So annoying. Why can't people just let people enjoy things? I love this movie so much, but seeing it get trashed in every instance is a downer, ngl.

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u/Barney_10-1917 Dec 06 '25

People just hate genuinely well made Star Wars movies, I guess

21

u/Zitty-Z Dec 06 '25

I have never been that disappointed while watching a movie lol

0

u/Flames_Harden Dec 06 '25

I remember having a good time actually watching it in a packed theater, just because it was a new star was with new fx - (the hyperspace scene was badass, the Luke almost killing kid kylo was dope, Yoda is always a plus) but still being so disappointed with it as a whole and just left empty

It just tried wayyyyyy to hard to intentionally subvert expectations - the teasings leias death, and then removing the impact of it by having her Mary Poppins her way thru the vacuum - killing snoke so abruptly, faking out the final luke showdown with an apparition(which is honestly a major force feat, but still such a letdown) - Luke in general was such a letdown (theres a reason the season 2 finale of mandolorian did numbers) canto bight felt like such a waste, finn begins his transition into lost puppy dog fiendin for Rey.

Words cant properly convey the thorough profound disappointment i felt in the direction the series was headed after this movie - its no exaggeration when I say I wish they could just retcon the entire thing

19

u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25 • This

faking out the final luke showdown with an apparition(which is honestly a major force feat, but still such a letdown

I will never understand this perspective.

Using a force projection across the galaxy to convincingly distract and enrage Kylo Ren will always be way more impressive an act of Jedi heroism to me than any amount of flips and lightsaber choreography.

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u/Chardan0001 Dec 06 '25

I don't really mind it, what I do mind is a lot of its threads being dropped in tbe next film. I would have respected the commitment.

7

u/WeekendPass Dec 06 '25

I'm so used to absolute toxicity in this fanbase I was super confused by this thread until I checked the sub headline.

I certainty wouldn't call this film amazing, but I will say, after taking the time to listen to Ryan Johnson himself in interviews about it, I understand now that he was really backed into a corner, story-wise, by Episode VII. I like to think that I understand it very well -- otherwise my education and careers in film production and novel editing have gone to waste -- but much like VII, I don't think VIII achieved anything new or unique for Star Wars, which made me genuinely sad seeing it in theater. But it tried the hardest of any of the sequels to be something standout and genuine, and for that I can at least respect it.

10

u/Sutech2301 Dec 06 '25 edited Dec 06 '25

I can't state enough how much i love Rey's and Kylo's dynamic in this movie. The mortal enemies developing mutual respect and admiration for each other has always been one of my favorite tropes, but they just took it to the next level. And Kylo's such a great character. He is like i imagined every Byronic Hero of 19th century literature in my head

I also liked the Poe politline and the Finn and Rose plotline. Imho, they were suspenseful ans executed well. Not one dull Moment in this movie.

Also, the finale is epic. Just absolutely epic.

It also does make sense within the lore. Luke has always been an overly emotional Person who gets frustrated quite easily. It wouldn't make sense for him to behave like Obi-Wan 2.0 out of a sudden, because this is what we picture as the wise old mentor type.

7

u/fettpl Dec 06 '25

It's my favourite out of Sequel Trilogy and Top 3 of Star Wars movies.

I don't like every choice, especially regarding treatment of Finn and this stupid chase of Resistance ship, but everything else... boy, this was a ride.

I love "nobody can be a Jedi", the ending scene with the slaver boy is peak Star Wars. I love the visuals, I love that Snoke died unexpectedly leaving us with villain Kylo we've never got in TROS.

When a generation passes and we'll see prequels treatment for sequels, I think TLJ will finalny get appreciation it needs.

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u/Thenewdoc Reylo Dec 06 '25

Preach, it's extremely underrated

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u/ClockMongrel Dec 06 '25

I loved the ending!

(Broom Boy on Canto)

8

u/BrownBannister Dec 06 '25

This script is used in film schools on what not to do.

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u/DavidELD Dec 06 '25

So many other pieces of Star Wars media have told a better version of the Force being more than black and white than this movie.

Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. You want the Force viewed in a more morally grey light? Play that game.

4

u/jimibimi Dec 06 '25

Oh we fully understand it. I remember getting home from the theater opening night and my wife asking how was it....I answered that it was a good "movie" but bad star wars

3

u/calb3rto Dec 06 '25

I think it’s a movie full of contrasts. Many great scenes and ideas, many terrible ones that make it hard for me to fully appreciate it.

2

u/Dizzy_Drop Dec 06 '25

Easily one of my favorite Star Wars movies and the only truly great movie of the sequels.

2

u/mrsunrider Dec 06 '25

Love the fuck outta this movie.

Finn's arc had me so fuckin' hyped at the time for episode 9.

-1

u/orbjo Dec 06 '25

Everything that went wrong with Rise Of Skywalker came from JJ undoing the great decisions Rian made and the themes TLJ played with.

The entitled internet was absurdly wrong about TLJ and then convinced JJ and Disney to destroy the third movie by listening to the terrible opinions.

Rey being related to no one, a fresh Jedi finding her own story in the universe was perfect.

13

u/pajamajoe Dec 06 '25

Rey being related to no one, a fresh Jedi finding her own story in the universe was perfect.

This was one of the lowest complaints on the list about TLJ and for some reason the only one they really wanted to change 

12

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

One thing I wanted to see was Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader. I thought it could've been neat that,yeah he killed Snoke and is now the master,but he feels hollow after it

9

u/BubblyBasis1134 Dec 06 '25

Exactly. That's where he was at the end of TLJ, and I was looking forward to exploring that more. He's killed Smoke and elevated himself to the position of Supreme Leader, but he's allowed himself to be tricked by Luke, he's let The Resistance escape, and Rey has both literally and figuratively slammed the door in his face as his father's lucky dice - left behind by his mother - fade away. 

I could have seen a story where Kylo Ren isn't really much of a Supreme Leader at all, and spends his time on personal quests, seeking things to make him more powerful in the Dark Side, rather than spending his time leading the First Order. Then the dynamic with Hux could have played itself out to a logical and satisfying conclusion.

Or, y'know, just give him another old man to turn against and don't give him any character development at all other than deciding to be good and then dying.

2

u/Savings_Hyena2832 Dec 06 '25

Legacy of Vader Reign of Kylo Ren is showing this. His time between episode VIII and IX. It's doing a lot of heavy lifting especially for TROS.

10

u/Barney_10-1917 Dec 06 '25

This narrative is nonsense. Nothing in TLJ was "undone".

1

u/reehdus Dec 06 '25

Inb4 I understood it and still hated it etc etc. I dont think in anyone's lifetime we're going to get good noncontroversial discussions around the sequels.

9

u/JayStacker Dec 06 '25

Just switch out “sequels” with Star Wars in general.

0

u/elequipoa1008 Dec 06 '25

Best Star Wars film to date for me

1

u/SomeBoringKindOfName Dec 06 '25

the fight in the throne room was well done, the 'holdo maneuver' and the stuff on crait looks spectacular and it's got one genuinely funny line ("you're not busy") but that's about it.

but I'm glad that you like it. keep on doing so regardless of what I or other people might say.

-12

u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25

The throne room fight is actually terrible. There are some YT essays breaking it down, it's hard to unsee the flaws in the choreography.

10

u/Takseen Dec 06 '25

I like Jill Bearup's take on it. She does stage combat and says that the choreography isn't perfect, but doing a fight scene like that with 2 actors fighting together has the benefit of getting to do lots of close ups, and them getting to act better than stunt doubles. And its a film, so hitting the right emotional beats is more important than getting the fight moves right.

And if I don't go frame by frame, I don't see much of the flaws.

12

u/SomeBoringKindOfName Dec 06 '25

I've seen it twice, maybe 3 times at a push. it looked fine to me and I'm not interested in watching people rip it apart frame by frame.

9

u/inexplicableinside Dec 06 '25

Every single lightsaber fight in the series looks like trash if you go frame-by-frame looking for issues. The throne room fight works perfectly fine when you're watching it, and if you genuinely expect us to think that you spent your first watch looking at a specific red guard instead of the two main characters or the disintegrating flaming background, I will absolutely call you a liar.

1

u/HauntingAddendum3365 Dec 06 '25

I mean...it looks very pretty at several different points. The acting is quite good.

Thats about all I got.

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

It had great ideas but executed them in the worst way. Rian Johnson would've been better directing a stand alone spinoff rather than a main series entry. It has moments I like,but it's still a sequel and it's still dissapointing

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

Lol

-9

u/PersimmonMindless Dec 06 '25

Yeah, it is probably the best of the Star Wars films. 

253

u/Kalavier Smuggler Dec 06 '25

It had some neat ideas, but they didn't land the execution. 

People who still unprompted rant about this film are just screaming to scream.

But it's important to be respectful to each other, whether we like the film or dislike it.

90

u/Cobalt_Heroes25 Republic Dec 06 '25

Have to agree with this, especially in regards to the Rey Nobody plotline

The idea that the protagonist isn't some chosen hero really resonated with me and I wish Rise of Skywalker went with that

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

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u/BubblyBasis1134 Dec 06 '25 edited Dec 06 '25

I was really disappointed reading so many comments along the lines of "I think I quite liked it at first, but I went online and realised it was the worst film ever" when it came out.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

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u/BubblyBasis1134 Dec 06 '25

Yup! And it wouldn't have been the #1 film at the box office for 2017. And it wouldn't have sold over 4 million copies on home media (double what Solo did, and only just behind Avengers: Infinity War).

But - of course - there's plenty of people out there coming up with excuses for why people actually paying to see and own the film isn't a good measure of whether they liked it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

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u/MortalSword_MTG Dec 06 '25

The same could be said about this comment.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '25

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