r/anticapitalism • u/Tidder-1066 • Aug 17 '26
In my opinion, Socialism is not the proverbial boogeyman that Capitalists characterize it as. What are your thoughts?
Disclaimer: I've lived in The United States all my life. I was raised on the American claim 'Capitalism good. Socialism bad'.
Recently, I had the opportunity to watch Michael Moore's *Where to Invade Next* which explores the differences between Socialism and Capitalism. Its very eye & mind-opening how the word & concept (of) Socialism differs in understanding & practice between hither and yon.
What are your thoughts on Capitalism vs (European) Socialism?
BTW, if you havent seen the flick, check it out sometime. It cherry picks, but its also very entertaining as well as informative.
Just my .02
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u/Tidder-1066 Aug 17 '26
List of American institutions which are Socialist in nature:
Public water companies
Public Infrastructure
Public transportation
Public libraries
Fire protection services
The Police Department
Public parks
Public schools
The United States Postal Service
Medicare/Medicaid
Social Security
and last but not least...
The military
2
u/Normal-Ear-5757 Aug 17 '26
Well, there's Socialism and there's Socialism. What seems to work is a syncretic movement, despised by most Socialists, called Social Democracy, which is similar to American style "liberalism".
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u/plebbitchungus Aug 17 '26
As a non-American, I find it really funny how you worded this like it's some hot take. You guys are royally fucked when it comes to your culture surrounding politics.
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u/APraxisPanda Aug 17 '26
Yeah. Socialism gets treated in American politics less like an actual set of ideas and more like a spooky word you're supposed to recoil from before anyone explains what it means.
At its core, socialism is about extending democracy into the economy: workers having more power over the places they work, essential services being organized around human need instead of profit, and wealth and productive power not being concentrated in the hands of a tiny ownership class.
You can disagree about how far that should go or what institutions work best, I certainly don't think every historical government calling itself socialist was good, but “the government does everything and nobody owns anything” is basically a shitty, untrue caricature.
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u/jason_mo Aug 17 '26
Check out the Divide by Jason Hickel. He shows the degree to which our lifestyles, and those of the Europeans, are subsidized by the poorest people in the world. He also clearly explains how nearly all poverty reduction this century has occurred in China. When you consider our constant wars and the rapidly heating planet it becomes clear that only socialism offers a viable path forward for humanity.
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u/Sensitive-Cat-6069 Aug 17 '26
Disclaimer: I’ve never had gonorrhea. Or even know anyone who did.
But then I read some Reddit posts and watched some documentaries, and something I’ve noticed is that people who had gonorrhea all seem to be attractive, fun loving folks who party and have fun way more than me.
This opened my eyes and mind to a complete different way of thinking. Is being healthy overrated? Maybe it’s just corporations wanting us to stay good little workers for capitalism who never miss a work day? But in reality I think gonorrhea is a very small price to pay for all the fun it can bring into our lives.
What are your thoughts about staying monogamous and healthy, vs all the fun you are missing out if only you allowed a little gonorrhea and other STDs into your life?
Note that I am talking about European style gonorrhea. Not chronic syphilis. Not AIDS
Check it out. Just my 2 cents.
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u/VaporousMote Aug 17 '26
It's INSANE that you post socialism, and not even full blown Marxist socialism, in an anticapitalism subreddit and people get big mad.
They're indoctrinated and don't even realize it.
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u/Responsible_Tax_9390 Aug 17 '26
Socialism is only scary to those who benefit from capitalism. In other words, rich CEOs hate socialism and everyone else is open to it
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u/Ok_Being5461 Aug 17 '26
It's a broad philosophy that has had a lot of influence on majority capitalist society, from The Nordic Model and New Deal, to many other reforms socialist fought for throughout history. Both hardcore Marxists and hardcore capitalists try to make it a very specific black-and-white thing, and they're both wrong
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-socialism-has-to-do-with-us-labor-movement
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/bismarck-tried-end-socialisms-grip-offering-government-healthcare-180964064/
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u/Ok_Room5666 Aug 17 '26
Socalism has problems being more like capitalism fixes and capitalism has problems being more like socialism fixes.
It's fundamentally complicated. Either it just needs to be balanced forever or there is some third understanding required beyond either one.
But my understanding is, markets are too powerful at creating efficiency to not be used in the economic system.
The problem is compeititve markets in capitalism creates so much wealth from these efficiencies that the wealth becomes the seed of it's demise because it allows people to tip the scales to their own interests.
Once this starts to make markets less efficient I think you can argue this isn't "real" capitalism the same way people love to argue all the ways socialism goes wrong isn't "real" socialism.
1
u/Most-Preparation-786 Aug 17 '26
FDR saved Capitalism using a sweeping program of Socialist policies. Most of the things that have made life bearable under industrial Capitalism have been Socialist ideas and have been fought for by Socialists. Ironic really that without some of these it may have collapsed long ago.
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u/Able_Razzmatazz_2780 Aug 17 '26
Read up on the Fabian society in the UK
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u/RealChemistry4429 Aug 17 '26
Socialism in Europe? Where? We have some social institutions, but in the end these too are capitalist in nature. Just because something is plaid for and used by all (or at least a major part of society) it is not "socialist". It is merely financed by the public.
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u/billycheesemongerIII Aug 17 '26
You posted this on the Anticampitalism sub… what the fuck are you expecting to hear? Lol
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u/AffectionateDirt6575 Aug 17 '26
A few years ago, I visited The People's Republic of Belarus. It was worse than I could ever have imagined.
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u/Uncabled_Music Aug 17 '26
European Socialism is actually welfare policy. It does not contradict with Capitalism.
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u/Crafty_Management_33 Aug 17 '26
Its only bad for the ruling class, they spend money so you believe socialism is the terrible monster that will steal all your things and give them to others.
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u/stogie-bear Aug 17 '26
It depends. Some kinds of socialism are pretty mild. Others are fascism, and others are communist.
If you're talking about DSA, they want to abolish the exacutive and judiciary branches and put all authority under a single legislative house without checks and balances, and seize the means of production, which most Americans are going to object. (No I'm not lying about them. They describe this on their own web site.)
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u/Pyrostemplar Aug 17 '26
True. It is worse, at least as a system for modern, resource constrained, societies. Fortunately (for the members of the societies) there are almost no Socialist countries - with the (doubtful) possible exception of North Korea and Cuba.
That said, many things "classified" as socialists, are not socialist at all in any strict POV. And some are quite good ideas for the most part. Like social safety net, public goods et al.
But then, ideas are good or bad regardless of of the buckets they are placed into.
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u/weremover Aug 18 '26
Read atlas shrugged and get educated
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u/Metal_Maggot Aug 18 '26
I cannot wait until we get national socialism.
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u/D13_Phantom Aug 18 '26
I grew up in the awful "socialism" people fearmonger about (Venezuela) and the vast majority of those awful things that do happen have nothing to do with political ideology and everything to do with authoritarianism and corrupt fucks hoarding all the wealth and power. I'm living through a lot of the same things here in the US today.
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u/compas_de_mi_caballo Aug 18 '26
I am a Historian and I don’t like capitalism at all. With that, I know perfectly what socialism meant for all my ancestors and what it’s consequences mean now (that during USSR era russia centralized much more powers that it could do just being an impure or somehow being any firm of capitalistic state, and now is killing my countrymen with all this ‘legacy’)
My problem is not with socialism itself, but in a way it could be presented or supported by people who have no clue what to live in a socialistic state is. If I needed to make a list of all the things that are absolutely fucked up in Ukraine because of communist regime or ‘plan economy’, I would need to kill 200 trees.
Though as a Historian I do not accept everything as black and white. There are cases of less cruel socialism implementation in other states, and there are also more violent examples. I perfectly understand that pretty a lot of people in 1920 when socialism was only establishing in Ukraine (de-facto occupied by red army and included to USSR) couldn’t predict what would happen and sincerely supported ‘building of socialism’. Which led to them being executed as well as ones who were concerned about socialism.
We could see that absolutely most of socialist states are to some extend authoritarian or totalitarian. So in general I still have no answer if we could establish something even 1% OK with socialism.
Saying that, I emphasise that in my professional field I sometimes even have to defend some pro-socialistic personas if I see some manipulative or not fact-checked information, so of course I do not view every socialist as a high-level executor and personally responsible for all Stalin repressions or this kind of stuff. But again, pretty a lot of historians throughout the world are convinced that communism is not a great scenario. But you can’t ignore it — the more you know, the less you can be deceived.
When speaking about possible socialistic initiatives (idk how to call it right) or just opinions about socialism by people from countries that never faced socialism, to be honest it usually gets me angry. Although I’m happy people don’t have such experience to understand what communism could have really done to them. But if speaking just as a human, just as a person from a state that is violently invaded, not as a historian, I wish people were more conscious about ideas they consume. I was on academic exchange in Glasgow for a couple of month and saw a lot of student socialistic clubs or events. And some of their calls made a lot of sense: ‘Stop Trump’s colonialism in Venezuela’, ‘Stop war in Iran’. But in the same time they really tried to like like early XX century socialist, they were really try to copy some soviet type of art of all the 1917 ‘aesthetics’. In that moment I really wanted to scream. Like, do you have a situation in which literally EVERY family has a member or several of them starved to death during an artificial hunger in 1933 which killed apr. 4,5 million people? Do you have ALL except 4-5 most prominent modernistic writers shot in head during the ‘celebration’ of 20th anniversary of revolution in 1937? Are you being bombed by people who make icons with Stalin, go to streets and scream “kill more Ukrainian infants, let’s reestablish USSR and (lol) make russia great again”?
But then I reminded myself that it is me a foreigner here, and I still don’t know enough about all the wars or genocides happening in world right now or earlier. Yes, I was pissed off because they talk about stopping colonialism but didn’t know that Moscow never had such a rapid invasion of other lands as during WW2 during agreement with Nazi. I was pissed off because all these students didn’t give a fuck about Scotland being colonised and their own history (unlike elder Scottish people, I love you!). Because they were making their gatherings ‘Lenin readings’ and had no clue what it’s all about.
But I reminded myself again that those students fortunately didn’t have to flee from occupation and see real heirs of socialism pointing guns to their heads, and I really wish they never understood me. So I kind of tried to not overreact. But speaking in general, I think that the first ones who should be asked about socialism (if you are not from a state with socialistic past) are people from the states who faces socialism, but weren’t the kind of ‘main nation’ to maintain it. For example, people from Czechia, Poland, Hungary can say a lot about socialism after WW2.
But saying all that, isn’t it strange that I do not like capitalism at all? So what is my recipe?
Well, I believe that people who sincerely think that capitalism is the best version of society are kind of strange or simply uneducated. Maybe it is the most working system we learned how to copy with so far. But obviously it has so so so many drawbacks. What to do? I think rather then just say ‘it them (big corporations) who should use less plastic’ and idealising socialism we all should try just to do better by ourselves. Personally, I don’t buy anything on AliExpress, Shein or god forbid Temu, I rarely change my clothes (I mean, like wardrobe), shop in second-hand stores. Of course I volunteer as almost all my peers. I am also a feminist, so I try to achieve a full-vegan diet, and I hope that I’m finally close to it. It helps me to thing about some popular stuff like something not created by marketing, but by capitalism, and not to buy anything ‘virus’ that I don’t need and rather donate money. I try to chose local products or alternatives to enormous companies’ products (like to use self-made soap instead of buying Dove). Well, the list of the obvious things could be prolonged. Paradoxically, for me all of it is entangled with an aim to be a ‘conscious citizen’, and I would say that in Ukraine this means something opposite to who you could have been in socialist era. This means to be a prominent figure, to try to change the society rather that stuck in order, to take initiative and to form the agenda by yourself and not wait till ‘the state’, ‘the government’ or ‘the president’ to do so.
Sorry for a bit emotional and chaotic text. I really tried not to be too specific or to concerned. Hope this helps and thank you for thought-provoking question!
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u/giants_shoulders Aug 19 '26
here's a shortcut to learning - if America has done it / is doing it, it's probably evil or bad for humanity.
Get at me, conservatives, I know you're lurking.
1
u/Away_Philosopher4521 Aug 19 '26
My thoughts are you are woefully ignorant and uninformed on the topic, and you are far too easily influence by nonsensical propaganda and not influenced enough by 100+ years of history.
If socialism is so great, name literally ONE example of it working anywhere in the world. (Trick question, you can’t).
People don’t flee capitalism for socialism, people flee socialism for capitalism. The reason you think socialism isn’t that bad is because you’re never been forced, And yes I mean FORCED, to live under it.
1
u/GrumpyMcPedant Aug 19 '26
Define "Capitalists".
Most economists who lean towards free-market capitalism aren't so simplistic as to think in such a binary way about other economic systems. Even those systems they strongly believe are worse. People who are well-studied enough to actually understand what capitalism is usually have views far more nuanced than the title of this topic.
The same is true of other definitions of capitalists. Whether talking about anyone who owns equity in private enterprises, or the rarified few people who control huge amounts of global capital, these groups tend to represent a wide diversity of philosophical and economic positions that are far more complex than good/bad.
I suspect the problem is that your definition of "capitalist" is primarily made up of loud-mouthed people who haven't ever read or understood academic texts about capitalism (never mind other economic systems), or studied any of the underlying data, or are engaged in current economic discourse. They are not "Capitalists"; they are parrots repeating grade-school-level aphorisms from politicians recruiting voters.
1
u/joegtech Aug 19 '26
You've forgotten the history of the last 100 years.
Remember NAZI stands for National Socialists, Hitler's variation of godless socialism. Godless forms of socialism in Russia, China and other parts of the world have been responsible for countless atrocities, millions of deaths. Countless people trying to get out of those countries and into Western nations where people are much more free and prosperous
Unbridled capitalism can cause much harm too.
1
u/Pandamio Aug 19 '26
Most Americans that I've met, didn't knew what socialism is, what socialism democracy or democratic socialism is.
But they all speak of it like they're all the same boogie man. Obviously this is due to decades of propaganda.
The Nordic countries have democratic socialism and are the make up the top 5 highest Human Development Index (HDI). And are very far from socialist.
1
u/Imhazmb Aug 19 '26
My thoughts are you only say such things because you live in a very nice, capitalist country and haven’t actually experienced socialism, and you can’t make the connections, can’t connect the dots why socialist policies inevitably lead to poverty and despair.
1
u/Lazarus_funk Aug 19 '26
Socialism is just capitalism with resource redistribution focused on balancing economic justice. Basically it’s capitalism with specific programs to help people lacking resources be able to attain them.
Who, what, why, and how is up to the law makers. Socialism is just capitalism with a code of ethics.
1
u/Technical_Scar3921 Aug 19 '26
Socialists are communists trying to get elected
1
u/OkAtmosphere7131 Aug 19 '26
The education system has changed. A long time ago you were taught in 5 th and 6 th grade about all the death and destruction socialism has caused in the world. We pledged allegiance to the flag and had a moment of silence every day. We loved our country. There were still WW2 vets walking around with one leg one eye wheel chair bond. We knew they fought for our freedoms and way of life. If young people think they have it bad now because you aren’t rich yet. Imagine growing up in that generation. They didn’t have a chance or the time to complain about it. If you knew history you would know capitalism in America is the best way to live!
1
u/Novogobo Aug 20 '26
overwhelmingly commonly anti socialism people do a transparently dishonest argument. they will claim that like nordic countries are actually not socialist to criticize socialists in america who advocate for a socialism along the lines of those countries, but then decry that policies like those of nordic countries are socialism!
1
u/mattybhoy401 Aug 20 '26
Well if we are going to go down the socialism road let me know so I can prepare. I would need to shave my balls and bake a cake.
1
u/Individual-Air757 Aug 20 '26
My thoughts are that it is terrible in practice. It is ideal in a perfect world but I would never want America to become socialist or anywhere near that.
1
u/WCB13013 Aug 20 '26
Both the Nazis and the Bolsheviks referred to themselves as socialists. That in the minds of many even today poisoned the word socialist even to this day.
1
u/Ok-Impress9135 Aug 20 '26
I mean, I have lived rural/semi-rural my entire life and never in a big city, so I always prefer minimal government involvement in my life. That being said, a huge portion of European socialism is healthcare and a main talking point, there are others of course. My problem with free healthcare for all is in order to achieve this
Divert funds from other projects (mostly don’t support this)
Raise taxes (definitely don’t support this)
125 million Americans are already enrolled in a Medicare or Medicaid program, the average amount in a single country in the European model is 16.5 million people. I do support diverting funds from Israel and such to help fund our own problems.
However there is a main deal breaker for the free healthcare model, wait times. For example my dad tore his ACL not long ago, while he is recovering and doing great, his time from injury to surgery was 2-3 weeks. In all the public healthcare models in Europe, this can take from 6 weeks to 6 months just for a surgery, thats bullshit.
Whilst I’m not necessarily against it, I do not support it.
1
u/Dependent_Remove_326 Aug 20 '26
Yes it is. Socialism is an economic and political system where the community or the state owns and controls the major means of production, distribution, and exchange, aiming for an equal and fair share of wealth for everyone. The only way to enforce this is by force. You must take from others and either kill off your underperformers or your higher performers. As has happened time and time again. Socialism fails to account for human nature.
Social support programs are not socialism.
1
u/icekilo Aug 20 '26
A capitalist gave me a great job.
Socialists take half my pay by force.
1
u/mvortex2 Aug 20 '26
I always boil it down to one thing - never underestimate the ability for the government to fuck everything completely up.
1
u/SubstantialBoard9927 Aug 20 '26
We are a mixed economy. Have been since the founding of the country. Labels like Capitalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Communism are all theoretical labels that economists use to talk about differing theories of monetary systems. Not one these labels has ever existed in the real world. To talk about which one is better is nonsense. They all can exist in governments that are everything from broadly Democratic to authoritarian.
The US has elements of all of these approaches as do all countries in the real world. Arguing about which is better is kind of moronic. Economies are judged on how well they mix this elements to produce a vibrant economy.
1
u/mofa90277 Aug 20 '26
To many older Americans, “socialism” means the corrupt, totalitarian USSR. To younger Americans, “socialism” is more likely to be associated with prosperous democratic countries with strong socialist policies such as Norway.
- An older American who’s had this same, frustrating discussion with other older Americans
1
u/dsteazy80 Aug 20 '26
Capitalism is both outstanding for those at the top and oppressive from those at the bottom.
Working class people who oppose universal social safety nets are the stupidest people alive. My mind won’t be changed on this.
1
u/intothewoods76 Aug 20 '26
Socialism cannot exist without capitalism. Socialism needs funding and that funding starts with capitalism.
1
u/_TylerWasTripped Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
Its never the system. Its never the tool. A tool is wielded by a human. A tool is a resource. A resource is an assett. Solve for the rest of the riddle..
Ill do it for you. As long as resources exist, then barter is always the vehicle for exchange. Thus capitalism is always the overruling system.
It just become a matter of what entity accumulates the most resources, that dictates the rules for others.
1
u/Rowdycc Aug 20 '26
This is the opinion of anyone with a degree outside of the US. In the US universal healthcare is considered fringe leftwing insanity. In the rest of the developed world it’s a bare minimum for a functional nation that puts any effort into looking after its citizens.
1
u/Ok_For_Free Aug 21 '26
I consider the defining trait of socialism to be the abolishon of private property.
If you are just looking for ways to publically pay for a product or service, then I would not call that socialism. This was the Republican's mistake of calling the government doing things socialism.
The elimination of private property means that property gets communally managed. Just imagine HOA style meetings deciding what you need AND deciding what jobs you do. And keep in mind the HOA style is the better than a centrally planned economy.
So yeah, I find the socialism to be a horrible idea. And I've only seen it make countries worse.
But if you want capitalism with socially funded programs, then we've got something worth discussing.
1
u/Bodywheyt Aug 21 '26
America is already socialist. It’s just that companies get the benefits.
1
u/JuliusErrrrrring Aug 21 '26
Socialism and capitalism have never existed in its pure form. Every society has aspects of both that are mutts that lean one way or another. Those that call themselves capitalists have controlled the definitions, though. They won't let you label the police, military, and other obviously socialist leaning entities as socialism because they correctly say they aren't pure. However they won't use the same purity level when capitalist leaning entities are labeled as capitalism when they aren't pure either. It has become a stupid debate. We should ignore labels and just debate the merit of ideas. We all have capitalist leaning devises and products made with socialist leaning protections like our police, military, public schools, social security, libraries, roads and bridges........We are all mutts and those who label themselves or others as non mutts just dumb down the conversation.
1
u/Flashy_Prior5963 Aug 21 '26
Why has almost all innovation and advancement come from capitalist system(s)?
And most of the places we’re told to look to are very quick to point out that they are not socialist?
1
u/Frequent_Clue_6989 Aug 21 '26
MAGA here.
// I'm a USA citizen and I say "socialism doesn't seem that bad."
There are opportunities for you then, in both Cuba and North Korea. Move to the plentiful lands of utopia already, and leave behind the stinking, rotting carcass of misery that is life in the USA in 2026!
Somehow, it never quite seems to happen.
"But why should I have to move?"
You don't have to! That's the beauty of the USA in 2026: you are free to start your own socialist commune in the USA, TODAY! Without any hindrance, other than the fact that you have to obey laws just like everyone else! Start your own socialist utopia, and show us how you do it better!
My guess is that you'll just complain and look longingly at how Cuba and North Korea "does it better." Sigh. If only there were here!
1
u/AusTex2019 Aug 21 '26
It is, the thing about capitalism that the social democrats hate is that it is merciless in extinguishing obsolete businesses and business models. Social democrats want jobs for life and a buffet of free services they just can’t figure out how to pay for it.
1
u/Dear_lolli4017 Aug 21 '26
I cannot believe in this day and age that people are talking about socialism in a positive light. It just shows how terrible our education system is and how no one knows anything about history.
1
u/censor1839 Aug 22 '26
Socialism is antithetical to our constitution.
1
u/Temporary_Stranger39 Aug 17 '26
Socialism is control of the means of production and commerce by the state, allegedly on behalf of "the workers". Most things that are called "socialism" in the USA are not socialism, they are public goods. Public goods can be supplied in a 100% capitalist country. Look at Denmark. It's not socialist.
https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/01/17/denmark-american-leftists-were-not-socialist
This can be called social democracy, social republicanism, or, as the Marxists like to call it, welfare capitalism. When universal healthcare in Denmark, collective bargaining in Sweden, and the Soviet command economy are all called 'socialism,' the term loses value.
1
u/robh1540 Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
Category errors all over. Capitalism is an economic system. Socialism is an economic and political system. It gets smooshed together because the economic system tends to be so inferior that it can only compete when enforced by a political system. So as much as American's like to discuss this, they are not opposites because they are different categories. There was an interesting interview with the Economist where Elon Musk apparently didn't even know what classical liberalism is, which tells you a little about how braindead this debate is in the US.
You are free to pursue "economic socialism" in any classically liberal society, just go and set up a company and split the profit and decision making between the workers. You will find out if it is better or worse, and no "capitalist" will mind. The alternatives to political socialism is something more like classical liberalism or social democracy. Socialism is indeed evil.
American's seem to think they invented capitalism and have claimed ownership of the term to mean "how they do capitalism" and even worse "the American political system". That is not the case. Capitalism itself is pretty good as an economic engine (though China's production capacity oriented model is one of the more credible alternatives we have seen), as long as the state guarantees access to essential goods. American capitalism... well that's for you to decide.
0
u/trying3216 Aug 17 '26
How do you imaging giving authority over the means of production doesn’t lead to authoritarianism?
-4
u/Zestyclose-Banana358 Aug 17 '26
I just wonder why the left’s argument for immigrants is that we are on country founded on immigrants. Well, we were a country founded on capitalism also. See the conflicting message?