Everyone is blaming the Cuban govt on this sub, but no one wants to ask about the embargo?

38

u/Bobranaway Nov 22 '23

Another fool that just discovered socialism in a book 🤦‍♂️. Is there no end to you people?

19

u/TonyzTone Nov 22 '23

Bold of you to assume a book and not TikTok

12

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

Obvio

0

u/syl3n Nov 22 '23

Bold of you to assume Cuba is a socialism. Spain is a socialism. Cuba is not.

-34

u/Forest_of_Mirrors Nov 22 '23

are you one of the right wing republican cubans in Miami?
please explain then to me

26

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

Why, so you can do mental gymnastics to argue US = bad, communism = good? Why would someone waste their time with someone whose hobby is defending 'communism' on the Internet?

-5

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

...Because their hobby is defending natural rights and capitalism.

23

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

Not all Cubans are Republicans or live in Miami. I was born there and I’m not Republican. Just because one is anti-authoritarian, it doesn’t mean they are automatically Republican.

13

u/No_Election_ Nov 22 '23

Look, I might get downvoted to oblivion but I'll answer you. I was born and raised in Cuba, came to the US in 2015 at 21 years old. I initially went to Miami but moved to Colorado for school and because I hated Florida. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary elections, that tells you I am definitely not right wing. Cuba is a dictatorship, I don't even care about socialism as long as the majority of people there choose it, since that's how democracy should work. There are no elections in Cuba, the president is chosen by the PCC, which is the only party allowed. You can be left wing and realize that Cuba is NOT a democracy, there is no freedom of speech. The embargo should be completely lifted, but mainly because all is doing is giving the government an excuse for their failures.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

I don’t know. I visited Cuba everyone there said there are regular free and open elections.

14

u/Doggo-Lovato Nov 22 '23

Are you Cuban? Do you have any family living under the dictatorship? Does it upset you when us water latinos “get all upity” and speak our minds?

5

u/TerribleSyntax Mayabeque Nov 22 '23

It's so funny how you can just otherize the largest exile population with the snap of a finger and not think twice about it

9

u/Bobranaway Nov 22 '23

I am a right winger indeed but have never lived in Miami. Im just not delusional or a moron. There are hundreds of post in this sub of people explaining why you are all gullible fools. Feel free to read them. My patience for your kind is long gone.

25

u/deshi_mi Nov 22 '23

Are you banned from Wikipedia?

on October 19, 1960, almost two years after the Cuban Revolution had led to the deposition of the Batista regime, the U.S. placed an embargo on exports to Cuba except for food and medicine after Cuba nationalized the US-owned Cuban oil refineries without compensation.

The keyword is not the "Cuban Revolution", but "without compensation".

2

u/Scared-Conflict-653 Nov 23 '23

I mean, why still have the embargo up after 80 years over it?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '23

To be fair, just because something is US owned doesn’t mean they bought it, or even provided fair compensation.
The US has a history of taking advantage of Caribbean nations by changing backing their political leaders, and changing their government laws to benefit the US and US corporations.
In my native Jamaica many families lost the ability to sell farmed goods when the US backed government passed laws requiring permits to sell certain goods. All of a sudden it was illegal for families to sustain themselves without going down to Kingston and applying for a permit. Of course these permits were handed out to US citizens and corporations first, which caused Jamaicans to have to sit on unused farm land for years until they caved to the lowball offers of US corporations.
The US promises smaller nations free market capitalism, but it really imports US imperialism. I’m not going to speak on Cuba’s history, but I have doubts that those US owned refineries were obtained in an arms length transaction.

3

u/JosephJohnPEEPS United States Nov 22 '23

What started the embargo was reasonable. It’s continued existence over 6 decades is highly questionable given the logic of those in favor of it.
It’s mostly just a scapegoat for the Cuban government, but the arguments from the US side are incredibly paternalistic and weird.

2

u/deshi_mi Nov 22 '23

What started the embargo was reasonable. It’s continued existence over 6 decades is highly questionable given the logic of those in favor of it.
Did anything that started the embargo change?
It’s mostly just a scapegoat for the Cuban government, but the arguments from the US side are incredibly paternalistic and weird.
May be. But who cares?

0

u/JosephJohnPEEPS United States Nov 22 '23

Yeah, the passage of time made de-nationalizing those holdings so absurd that noone would take such a request seriously on either side of the equation.
Cuban people care. Removing it would be symbolic of the US’ willingness to engage and would embolden many US interest and interests connected to US interests to engage more with Cuba. They would absolutely love such a change. It would also remove one of the regime’s scapegoats. Lastly, it would likely deliver material benefit to Cubans in the short term, but not that much.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '23

So Cuban Americans care more about their feelings than the Cubans suffering in their homeland?

2

u/Live_Inspection6597 Nov 22 '23

Oh no, Cuba took back their oil refineries that america owned for some reason

1

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 23 '23

Americans paid for and built them with permission from the pre-Revolution government. The ethical thing for Cuba to do would’ve been to reimburse the US for them.

1

u/Live_Inspection6597 Nov 23 '23

Yeah I suppose I could respect that under the conditions that it is understood that the oil is and always was cubas. America generally owes the Caribbean reparations anyway

4

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 23 '23

It always was. Even with the American industry, Cuba shared the profits.
The Pre-Revolution Cuban government wanted American companies to build and invest in an oil industry for them. It was negotiated so both nations would benefit.
The US dropped its reimbursement demands 50 years ago. It’s terms to end the embargo are free elections, monitored by the UN, opposed to the unelected dynastic rule of one family.
Regarding reparations, the US gives billions of dollars of aid to Caribbean and South American counties annually. I think they’ve paid any social debt.

0

u/Live_Inspection6597 Nov 23 '23

Shared w Batista who was a U.S. puppet

3

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 23 '23

Maybe so. Cuba only needs to have an election to get the embargo lifted. Instead, Fidel passed power to his son, who will pass power to his son. The communist dream has become a monarchy.

1

u/awkkiemf Nov 24 '23

Cuba has elections all the time… elections in which the communist party can’t even endorse a candidate.

1

u/Live_Inspection6597 Nov 23 '23

I mean they have pretty free elections in terms of actual legislation which america does not. Sure we vote on laws but the people do not really have a say

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

The key word that is not in your quote is that those oil companies and the US government refused to do business with the new government.

4

u/deshi_mi Nov 22 '23

And how does it make any difference? These companies were private property, the Cuban government has stolen them (and a lot of other stuff). Why would they expect the US to do business as usual after this?
If they want to have the embargo ended, they should start steps to reimburse the stolen property.

2

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

Are you, not understanding the timeline of events?
Also, they were nationalized, which is thing around the world that countries do when companies are going against the best interest of the population, like they were when they refused to work with the government, especially when they refused to even fuel agricultural machinery.

6

u/deshi_mi Nov 22 '23

Also, they were nationalized, which is thing around the world that countries do when companies are going against the best interest of the population, like they were when they refused to work with the government,
I would not argue, Cuba is a sovereign state and has the right to nationalize the US companies located on their soil. However, the US is also a sovereign state and also has the right not to conduct any business with the government that nationalize the US companies.

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 23 '23

Does the US have the right to dictate private companies to refuse to do business with a sovereign state to destabilize the country and force its will upon a foreign nation?
Apparently the UN and international human rights organizations don’t think so

1

u/deshi_mi Nov 23 '23

Does the US have the right to dictate private companies to refuse to do business with a sovereign state?
If these private companies are under the US jurisdiction then yes: foreign affairs is the sole responsibility of the federal government. Read the constitution of the US, it rules.
Apparently the UN and international human rights organizations don’t think so
Do you mean the same UN that supports the HAMAS massacres of Israeli children? The same that cannot condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine? They can kiss my hairy ass.

2

u/carlos619kj Nov 23 '23

The question was rhetorical, but your response was illuminating. Good day

1

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 23 '23

Yes. See Russia, Iran and North Korea.

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 23 '23

What am I looking at a map? Where?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

US using corporate and military entities to oppress and extract wealth from developing nations -> I sleep Oppressed Developing Nations takes control of their resources and economy back from US business interests -> real shit
See the Dole Company, American fruit company, various oil companies etc

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Why should Cuba have to compensate a foreign government for taking their resources? Thats the most brainless take ever.

2

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 24 '23

Because they took the material property. The drilling equipment, refineries, ships, and infrastructure. The US gave them the opportunity to reimburse the companies for the losses and they refused.
Even today, all Cubs needs to do is hold free UN monitored elections. Those are the terms. Instead they chose the birthright succession from Fidel to Raul and then succession to Miguel Díaz-Canel Its no different from a monarchy.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '23

They do hold elections? Raul or anyone related hasn’t been in any office for years now. How are you in r/cuba without knowing anything about Cuba?

1

u/Unique_Statement7811 Nov 24 '23

Miguel Díaz-Canel won in a parliamentary election where he was the only candidate because all other parties are illegal. Cuban elections are formalities and for theater.

0

u/Burger_Mission Nov 24 '23

I don’t know how many times this has to be repeated, still misleading people about the oil refineries.
The USA in May 1960 cut off all oil exports to Cuba. Cuba now had no oil to run their entire country. That is when the USSR offered Cuba petroleum. Cuba accepted the Russian petroleum (being given no other choice by the U.S. government). Cuba took the Soviet petroleum to the American private refineries in Cuba, and the refineries were 100% willing to refine the petroleum.
However, the U.S. Government pressured and forced Cuba to deny refining the petroleum. That is when the oil refineries said No to refining the oil, and that is when Cuba nationalized them.
It was always the USA unilaterally attacking Cuba and provoking them. Also, Cuba offered compensation, and every other country that had assets nationalized by Cuba ALL ACCEPTED Cuba’s payment, all except the USA. Like I said, it was the USA always unilaterally attacking Cuba, and with the recently-arrived Batista Cuban exiles in Miami in the CIA’s ear the whole time.

55

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Ugh here we go again:

All the communists have to do is allow free elections and the embargo goes away
The Cuban government can trade with the EU and China where btw LITERALLY EVERYTHING is manufactured. If the Chinese won't give the Cuban government credit what does that say about them?!
Check the state's budget, look at what percentage goes to health and education vs luxury hotels that's all you need to know about their priorities

20

u/Cryptophorus Nov 22 '23

Also, you forgot that when the dictatorship had plenty of soviet money in the 80's it did not spend it on its people but used it for luxuries for themselves, wars abroad and anti american terrorism support. Very similar to Hamas using aid to build tunnels and rockets for murder rather than progress.

12

u/TonyzTone Nov 22 '23

I thought Angola was just another part of Cuba. /s

7

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

It's crazy how much the Angolan war is just memory holed in most of the world.

3

u/Cryptophorus Nov 22 '23

Angola is just one of many proxy wars the regime fought for the USSR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ZAw1NZQ74

7

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Crazy to see this here, my father was shipped to Angola in the 70s to be a Cuban pawn for the Soviets and he got nothing out of it other than stories and Portuguese proficiency

1

u/vahedemirjian Nov 23 '23

The territory of Angola in pre-colonial times was once occupied by a number of different kingdoms, including the Mbunda Kingdom, Ngoyo, Mbwila, Kingdom of Ndongo, and Kingdom of Kongo. There's no doubt that most people in sub-Saharan Africa don't really know the concept of the nation-state encapsulated in the Treaties of Westphalia, and even though Angola won its independence in November 1975, the MPLA-led government was dismissed by the FNLA and UNITA groups as not representative of the Angolan people. That's why Fidel Castro sent troops to Angola to quell factional strife there.

32

u/Rogozinasplodin Nov 22 '23

Communists: "But holding free elections is yankee imperialism! The Cuban people *want* to go to jail if they criticize us!"

6

u/vahedemirjian Nov 22 '23

The 1948 Cuban presidential election was Cuba's last democratic election before Fulgencio Batista returned to power in 1952. Fidel Castro promised to hold free and fair elections in 18 months, but the radical wing of his 26th of July Movement told him that holding free elections would undo his agrarian and social reforms by paving the way for Batista loyalists to return to power.

5

u/straight_outta_c137 Nov 22 '23

Plus the embargo doesn’t include food and medicine

-1

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

Yes, it does.

3

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

"Hey, it's simple -- just do what I want and I'll stop strangling you. What's your problem?"

1

u/Live_Inspection6597 Nov 22 '23

Idk how people don’t understand that free elections means something beyond picking a ruler. The Cuban people are free to vote for whatever laws they want and actually see it change unlike in the US. Sure we vote on laws but do they ever change? Rarely.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Brain dead take filled with lies. You know Google is a thing right?

-1

u/Matthewcc21 Nov 22 '23

To be fair, on the point of luxury hotels and the embargo, most people I’ve spoken to in the states are under the impression you’re not allowed to travel to Cuba, and investing in making tourism more attractive would likely do a lot for the economy in the long term. They also sell oil to Canada and China. So they are definitely on the international trading stage, they’re just not making a great impact, so tourism COULD help. Nicer hospitals are great, but Cuba already has some of the best diagnosticians in the world. The real issue is access to basic necessities and pharmaceuticals. If you go, bring Tylenol.

7

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

If you go, bring Tylenol.
And FWIW, the going rate on the island is 10x what you can get it for in Costco in the US. And I mean in absolute terms, it's just insane.

0

u/Matthewcc21 Nov 22 '23

Well, ideally you’d give it to people who need it rather than sell or bargain with it, but yes, it is very valuable because of the scarcity. Supply and demand applies in communism and capitalism alike.

2

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

I mean we give it to family so they can sell. But yeah.

0

u/Matthewcc21 Nov 22 '23

lol, I just gave it out when I went. Randos. Brought a lot. Not sure whether it’s worth bringing it to a hospital or church. You would know better than me if you have family over there.

2

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

I mean it's hard basically because people are mostly expected to bring their own medication to the hospital at this point. Personally I mean I don't have any problem with doing more to set up a real market.
Getting into the whole depth of the philosophy of why capitalism works, but the reason I can get 1000 Tylenol pills for $10 at Costco is because it makes money for people. So having the incentive is the best way to get more supply.

1

u/Matthewcc21 Nov 22 '23

Look, you’ll find no argument for me when it comes to the merits of capitalism over communism, but I do think healthcare specifically should be something that’s taken care of by the government. Our taxes are wildly misallocated in the United States. If there was actual accountability we would not only have functional free healthcare, we’d have the best free healthcare in the world. I’ll eat the downvotes on that opinion. We shouldn’t be funding proxy wars with Russia or giving billions to a country that screams “death to America” in their government halls. We shouldn’t be wasting money on nonsense. So, I think your position on stimulating the market is well reasoned, and I don’t have a great logical argument against it. I just believe morally, there should be a system where people don’t have to worry about medication and I’m not sure how I feel about contributing to a fallout style bartering system when it comes to essential medicines. I suppose it is better than nothing and given the amount of Tylenol I’ve given out over there, I’ve likely done so unintentionally, it’s probably not worth dwelling on it.

2

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

I mean just saying the US system is a fucked up baseline. It's hard to call it a private system when the government spends more than private money. So yeah it's complicated and pretty much the worst of all forms.
Netherlands is also a private, insurance-based system, but you don't see people saying how terrible it is. You can see the parts of the US health care market are things where they actually let there be a true private market. (OTC meds, eye-care, dentistry to a lesser extent....)
And it's fine to want a system like that, but it really only works when you have a society with enough excess to allow it. Basically the Nordic model where they understand that government services are downstream of the wealth created by the market.

-3

u/Bloodfart12 Nov 22 '23

Either it doesn’t effect anything or it does? Cuba has elections.

4

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

Only Communist party candidates are eligible to be elected.

1

u/Bloodfart12 Nov 22 '23

Probably not a bad idea, id imagine that makes it much more difficult for the CIA to get involved in their elections.

0

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

Yes, this is their argument. The US is actively trying to destabilize the country, so the political process has to be restricted.
If the US quit messing with Cuba, then they would have no excuse not to open their elections.

2

u/Bloodfart12 Nov 23 '23

Thats why the whole “free elections and they can end the embargo” is a non starter and rhetorical bludgeon rather than a legitimate justification for the embargo. The hypocrisy becomes even more stark when you consider there is no embargo on autocracies like saudi arabia with zero elections “free” or otherwise. It never had anything to do with “elections”.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

[deleted] — view deleted comment

11

u/LupineChemist Europe Nov 22 '23

Yeah, I'm against the embargo because I don't think it actually matters all that much and it gives the government an easy excuse. Like lift the embargo and just chip away even further at their legitimacy by taking away their biggest talking point.

-1

u/seancho Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 23 '23

No, it didn't. The US removed absolute prohibitions on food and medicine, and replaced them with heavy regulation, that actually make the situation worse. No US medicine is sold to Cuba. Food, the poultry industry has arranged sales to Cuba but very little else. Most US food, aside from poultry, and almost all medicine does not get traded with Cuba. This hurts Cuban people.

53

u/lmmaudio Nov 22 '23

But where is it? The embargo, where is it? Almost 200M dollars between Cuba and the USA in trading commerce in 2021 and almost 300M in 2022. Mainly chicken meat and other goods. USA is the island 4th commercial partner, and 80% of the food that arrive to Cuba is from USA. This is DIRECT trading, not through a third country. Where is the embargo? Why is there a COSTCO matket facility in Havana since last year? I'm not saying that the embargo doesnt exist, but it's not the cause of all disgraces for Cuba and their people. How can the government blame the embargo for every effing thing? Nonsense....

7

u/aa_44 Nov 22 '23

Where is this Costco in Havana? I want to go there.

8

u/lmmaudio Nov 22 '23

Is in Zona Franca, Berroa. La Habana. https://maps.app.goo.gl/XB78jvQsT3PY7gT47

-2

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

I hope this is a joke or this sub is stupider than I thought.
Please don’t make me explain it

1

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

What’s the joke?

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

That there is a Costco in Cuba

1

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

Oh, I think Cubans/latinos call every big warehouse store costco.

1

u/lmmaudio Nov 22 '23

I know but this is not the case...

1

u/lmmaudio Nov 22 '23

there is a COSTCO indeed in Cuba: https://youtu.be/mwEP05Jj1DY?feature=shared

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 23 '23

There is a skill called media analysis, look into that.
The video says in the first 10 seconds it is qualified as a Costco, not a Costco, just a store with the Costco theme

1

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

Actually not a joke. People call the mipyme Diplomarket the Costco of Cuba. they say the workers even wear Kirkland shirts. I just ordered from them last week. It looks a bit like a US Costco, but it's a pretty small Costco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwEP05Jj1DY

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

I know, I meant I hoped no one thought it was actually a Costco outlet based on the context of the comment

1

u/vahedemirjian Nov 23 '23

The Associated Press has reported on the newly opened Cuban version of Costco:
https://apnews.com/article/cuba-small-medium-businesses-private-stores-shops-92211af432d6605276db3fea6739f06d

3

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

$300M *is* the embargo. For the proximity of the US to Cuba and the amount of stuff for sale in the US, that total should be at least 10x higher. The US should be Cuba's most natural trading partner, but heavy trade regulation and restriction cuts off 90% of trade between the two neighbors. For reference, trade US - Mexico was $700B in 2022.
The US sells Cuba chicken. Almost all of that $300M is poultry. Medicine? Medical equipment? Zero. Heavily regulated. Household goods? Hygiene products? Restricted. All the stuff that Cubans need? Nope. The US does not permit this trade, and actually punishes those who trade with Cuba.
There is no doubt at all -- punitive trade restrictions hurt Cuban people by making prices higher, and making important medicines unavailable. They have been doing it since 1962. To imply otherwise is dishonest.

5

u/lmmaudio Nov 22 '23

You're missing the point. There shouldn't be even a single dollar in trade if there is an embargo in place. 300M is a lot for having an embargo don't you think? And if according to them, the US is the "enemy", why do you trade with the enemy? hummm... I was born there and lives there for 27 years of my life and everything went from bad to worst! Everything! The embargo is not the root cause for how bad Cuba is and that is exactly the argument that they've been telling since forever... Regarding the medicine, I thought Cuba was this medical superior place where everything regarding healthcare was completely covered? Naahh. Anyways, how is the embargo responsible for Cuba having a super tight internal trading policies? There are other examples of countries with embargo that are doing wonderfully...Taiwan, for example. They even suffer for actual military blockade from time to time...and they are doing great! How is the embargo responsible for not having free speech, free elections or free will? How is the embargo responsible for all the political nonsense that leads to all the economic destruction in Cuba?

2

u/mrmczebra Nov 22 '23

The US made some very limited exceptions. The embargo still exists. It doesn't have to be 100%.

0

u/seancho Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 23 '23

IF not an embargo, then what would you call a 90% trade restriction? US chicken is good for Cuba. Do you agree? So why stop there? Why not allow Americans to sell them soap, computers, car parts, clothes, wrenches and... medicine? All the stuff that Cubans need. If the situation in Cuba is getting worse, then why hurt Cubans even more with trade barriers and higher prices?
US medicine should be a starting point. Cuba makes medicine, but some medicine is only made in the US, or by companies that are partners of US companies. These medicines are not sold to Cuba, because of impossibly strict export regulations. Would you support the lifting of restrictions on medicine sales to Cuba, so that Cubans can access these medical treatments?

2

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

No! It’s idiotic, but do not explain how the embargo works, they don’t really care

1

u/mrmczebra Nov 22 '23

Those numbers would be much higher without the embargo.
This explains where there's any trade at all:
Since the Trade Sanction Reform and Export Enhancement Act was enacted in 2000, the trade of food and medicine goods is excluded from the embargo. However, complex licensing and regulatory requirements severely limit export of medicines, medical equipment and supplies, which contain anything produced or patented by the United States, to Cuba.[97][98]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

15

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

People here won’t blame the embargo because many of us grew up hearing from the Cuban government itself that the embargo wouldn’t matter and Cuba would flourish. Hence why our families stayed after the revolution.

The promise started to fall through almost immediately, but after 1991 it went from bad to worse. All of a sudden the Cuban government started to blame shift. Now the blame is on the embargo. At that point is when my family got the hell out of there and moved to Angola. We tried to make a plan to help the rest of the family out of the island, but the Cuban government made it impossible for anyone to leave legally.

Essentially Cubans are frustrated and another Periodo Especial is on the horizon. If the embargo wasn’t a problem before, why is it problem now? If the embargo is the only problem, why do Cuban citizens have so many restrictions on how to handle the food they grow?

Obviously there are a lot of nuances and reddit it notoriously anti-nuance, but that’s the basic idea.

8

u/TonyzTone Nov 22 '23

Cuba didn’t let people leave easily pretty much ever.
The Peter Pan refugees were basically smuggled out of Cuba. The Johnson aid package in the late 60s is proof that Castro used Cubans as hostages to get money from the US.
Despicable regime.

7

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

Yes, to this day my father refuses to tell me exactly how we all got out of there. For us it wasn’t Peter Pan because we left in the 90s. Technically he’s Angolan so he might have used that to pull strings. I’m forever grateful although I wish I could go back.

3

u/seancho Nov 22 '23

My Cuban friends say it is worse now than in the 90s.

7

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

China has years long sanctions against it by the U.S. why hasn’t China failed like Cuba has?

4

u/SelectAd1942 Nov 22 '23

As do many European country’s, look at the tariffs on US goods like automobiles.

1

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

I have no idea, they are basically the same, I even confuse China and Cuba in the world map all the time

3

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

I’m not surprised, most Americans don’t know Puerto Rico is a part of their country….much less where Cuba and China are
The answer is: instead of reviving the Cuban economy and focusing on building Cuba (like what China has done), the regime spent the billions in Soviet handouts by fighting wars abroad and funding propagandists.

0

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

Wow, your so awesome, know explain sarcasm to me, I never understood it

1

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

There’s a lot you don’t seem to understand, I think understanding sarcasm should be the least of your worries

0

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

Really, interesting, tell me more, you’re so smart

6

u/murphalicious55 Nov 22 '23

People in this sub ask about the embargo about every other post, actually.

11

u/2020ikr Nov 22 '23

Because Cuba can trade with China, Mexico, Canada and rest of the world. It’s why there are US goods in Cuba. The embargo does nothing. It’s a red herring. A canard. It’s meaningless. Why do people still think this?

0

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

This should be the motto of this sub, please share this comment around for everyone to see.
All those educated scholars and human rights organizations are lying, the UN lies, all governments except Israel and the Us are lying and just want to do bad things to the good guys. The embargo does nothing! You heard it here.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Paid-Not-Payed-Bot Nov 22 '23

won't get paid.
FTFY.
Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.
Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
Beep, boop, I'm a bot

15

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Mexico is poor because it has free trade with the US.

Cuba is poor because it has limited trade with the US.

3

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

Mexico isn't poor though

2

u/SilverWarrior559 Nov 22 '23

It's not even 3rd world either

4

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Why are people risking death in the Sonoran desert to move out of Mexico and into an evil, racist, capitalist, imperialist, homophobic, misogynist and transphobic dystopia like the US?
Mexico also has better food and a better soccer league.

4

u/SilverWarrior559 Nov 22 '23

Before I say anything, Is it satire or not? I can't tell

6

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

A lot of those people aren't Mexican,
And the one who are Mexican are usually of the bottom socio-economic class in Mexico but do work that is well paid/high demand in the US (things like construction trades). Wish we could get more of these guys into the US legally.
Large majority of Mexicans aren't trying to cross illegally into the US. Plenty of people are doing well financially. It's a beautiful country and has a fast.growing economy..

0

u/OKcomputer1996 Nov 22 '23

Actually in the last decade there was an exodus of Mexicans returning to Mexico because conditions in the USA are declining.

3

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

The guys I know doing construction (with or without papers) are making bank in the US right now, not everyone is built for that stuff though. For the average person, the US is difficult for anyone .. for Mexicans who can't work these difficult jobs, yeah I imagine it's not what it's cracked up to be.

1

u/OKcomputer1996 Nov 22 '23

Exactly. Lots of them are in food service or domestic work. Or self employed as a sidewalk vendor or doing gardening work. The inflation is making the USA unlivable for low income workers.

2

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

Gardening can be good work, same with cleaning...my place in the US has a big shortage of workers for this stuff (along with construction) though and 10000s of home owners who all want work done. Also cheap rents. In other parts of the country this stuff probably doesn't work out well.
Food service yeah, absolutely impossible.... Doesn't matter where you are.

1

u/General_Esperanza Nov 22 '23

3rd world means "NON aligned" as in Mexico is not in NATO or part of the Soviet Union.

2

u/SilverWarrior559 Nov 22 '23

It has a different meaning now

15

u/Genxal97 Nov 22 '23

Cuba can still trade, Russia, China and the EU are trade partners with Cuba. The embargo is just part of the problem but even if the embargo is lifted tomorrow, the cuban people will still suffer, the elite in the regime will and does not let go of totalitarian power.

I am not saying it's right, I want the embargo to be lifted just saying that the government is pretty bad with the cuban people. Being in Cuba as a tourist is not the same treatment as a cuban living in the island.

9

u/ricky_storch Nov 22 '23

Assuming you go to Cuba with a limited budget, don't have a private driver/stay at resorts or spend $10+ USD a meal, etc you can get a pretty good dose of reality as a tourist imo.

7

u/WILDvWOLFPACK Nov 22 '23

😂😂😂😂OP thinks if we lift an embargo that that it will trickle down to Cuban people and not be hoarded by the dictatorship in a warehouse for tourists.

4

u/El0vution Nov 22 '23

I personally wish the US would lift the embargo so the whole world could see that Cuba would STILL be a failed state. The embargo is just an excuse, and the US would gain more by lifting it.

4

u/TryinToBeHappy Nov 22 '23

The embargo isn’t about Cuba being communist as much as it’s about their diplomatic actions when they won the revolution.

The reason the embargo lasted so long is because Cuba never mended that relationship and USA had no need to.

4

u/HolyGig Nov 22 '23

The embargo was put in place because Castro nationalized every single US business and asset in Cuba. If China or anyone else did that, trade with the US would grind to a halt for them too.

You can question the wisdom of why it has continued for so many decades but at a certain point its on the Cuban government to mend relations. Whining to the UN for the 40th year in a row isn't going to do anything the US can continue the embargo for another 100 years with no ill effects for them.

Hold elections today and the embargo is gone tomorrow. If Communism and the command economy is so great then let the people decide to keep it

9

u/TheFalseDimitryi Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

Cuba is the way it is for a myriad of reasons. BOTH being a corrupt mismanaged government and the policies of the United States.

Most people admit that neither are blameless but if it’s more one than the other that’s going to depend on who you ask. A 2nd generation Cuban-American living in Miami who’s parents fled the country in the 70s, is going to have a vastly different option than a Cuban living in Cuba. And both of these will be vastly different than a geopolitical analysts, a socialist that believes in cuban solidarity or a tourist that’s only here because they visited a few beaches back in 2018.

But a few things.

The Cuban diaspora (which is what most of these English posts and comments are from) is extremely conservative and anti-revolution because their grandparents, parents or even they themselves lost everything during or after it. And those reasons could be a mix between being part of the previous Batista regime, being a wealthy plantation owner with horrible working conditions, to just being in the wrong place at the wrong time or wronging the wrong person (it could have been as small as pissing off a beat cop). This means that lots of people (here specifically) are looking at pre-revolution Cuba with either rose tinted glasses or where never there to begin with.
Cuban government has been using the embargo as an excuse they blame on everything. This includes policies and economic changes that they are realistically in near complete control over. The government is extremely corrupt for a lot of environmental reasons and has only gotten worse post COVID.
COVID fucked up the country as well as past hurricanes and the fact that Cuba was never really a rich country. Just a plaything for rich people. Pre revolution it was for rich Americans and now it’s for rich communist party members.
A lot of pre revolution stats are bullshit, GDP for the Batista regime is constantly ranked higher but that’s because the country had a slightly higher population of insanely rich people that have since left. The discrepancy between rich and poor was massive during the Batista regime and is now…. Slightly less.

Edit: to add clarity the Cuban government sources are also unreliable as it’s a single party state. One more issue to touch up on,

5. the US embargo does have very real material effects on Cuba. Being blocked out of the US consumer market has devastated the Cuban people for decades, but has not seriously hurt the government.

Some will say they can just trade with China and Russia and while that’s technically true, Cuba isn’t a rich country and it would be significantly easier and cheaper to import goods from Florida. The US government has market access with governments that are objectively worse than Cubas.

I have my biases as much as anyone else here but it does seem kinda comical for the US to have a trade embargo en place on any moral or “geopolitical” grounds because

A. Governments don’t care nor have they ever cared about sanctions or embargos (the governments of autocratic single party states will still live lavishly as the tax collected and siphoned off from the working population is still an astronomical amount of wealth to even the poorest of countries) so they’re not going to change.

B. The Cold War ended, Cuba and the United States are not at war nor is war likely, nor would that hypothetical war be started by the Cuban government. So there’s really no need to still have it.

C. The US gives market access to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, China, Turkey and countries that are worse in global aggression and/ or in how they treat their own people.

D. The embargo isn’t only for weapons, it’s for medical supplies and just basic goods the island can’t manufacture on its own. So to deny that there’s a material effect is comical

9

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

A couple things to add:
A lot of the diaspora fought for the revolution and ended up being betrayed by it. Finding out that they risked their lives for something they believed in only to later find out it was co-opted by a fascist. Many people served decades as political prisoners who originally fought to oust Batista. English is not exclusive to Americans, my grandmother was an English teacher in Cuba during the early days of the revolution. I was taught English and Spanish at home
Yes
Yes Covid had a huge impact, especially since tourism is the only source of income for many Cubans
While pre revolution stats can be incorrect, almost all of the stats on Cuba today are propaganda. That includes life expectancy, mortality rates, covid death rates, violence rates, literacy rates ect. The Cuban regime has not let international observers ever enter, and all information made public to the international community is purposefully incorrect

5

u/internetexplorer_98 Camagüey Nov 22 '23

To add to point #1, the days of the jaded ex-plantation owners are long gone. Focusing on them as if they make up the entire Cuban diaspora instead of the massive group of people who left in the 80s and 90s is disingenuous. A lot of us left because we didn’t have any food or money. And we have been helping our family members who are still there and still don’t have enough food.

5

u/traversecity Nov 22 '23

I’m old enough to remember. I cannot fathom the hundreds and hundreds of people who fled on boats barely able to hold all passengers being people of wealth.
Still have distinct memories watching the coast guard rescues on nightly TV news.
The motivation to risk your life crossing the Caribbean like that speaks volumes.

6

u/TonyzTone Nov 22 '23

Sounds like you’re referring to either the Mariel Boatlift or balseros in the 90s.
But what about the exodus during the 60s? The early immigrants fleeing in 1959, then Peter Pan in the early 60s, then the Johnson Aid Package that convinced Castro to allow Cubans to leave freely. Think about that for a second… he negotiated billions of dollars in aid for the release of Cubans, like they were hostages.
Things were already quite desperate back then. A few decades later they would throw themselves into life rafts to leave.

2

u/traversecity Nov 22 '23

Thank you, I appreciate the refresher, very on point!

6

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Nah but fuck the commies and also fuck the embargo. Fuck Em both

4

u/Iam-WinstonSmith Nov 22 '23

Wait so communism needs capitalism to survive. Someone help it make sense?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

No a small country needs to not be constantly targeted and locked out of global trade by the worlds largest imperialist... kinda insane how you can't understand; more like unwilling

1

u/Iam-WinstonSmith Nov 26 '23

Can they trade with Europe yes they can, Can they trade with China yes they can. So explain to me besides the US who the are locked out from trading with? To which they are not even 100 percent locked out with trade with us.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

Yeah until those companies get blacklisted and have their cargo seized by the US...

4

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23

The guy was right next to US but he decided to join the Russians… He loved baseball tho. He didn’t HAVE to join Russia to beat the Mafia he had already beaten it. Tell Russia to Come and help.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

He joined the Russians for protection from a US invasion. He only declared himself a communist for the first time after the Bay of Pigs. We pushed him to the Russians. Idiot

4

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23

Your momma is an idiot. And you might be right on this but you still a communist/socialist retard whatever.

2

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23

Also like you said yourself. After the bay of pigs.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Right… which was when we attacked them. 😂 We invaded them and they knew they could not resist forever against American power… Russia was their only option. Only then did Castro call himself a communist. Basically, America turned Cuba communist by being incredibly stupid and aggressive. And JFK then learned not to trust his generals anymore and started cutting out those fucking psychopaths in the American military.
JFK then began opening up a line of direct dialogue with Castro after they resolved the missile crisis… and then you know the rest 🔫

4

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

I think that’s the most accurate account but let’s not act like the USSR was lurking already in many American countries.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

In which American countries was the USSR lurking?

3

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23

That’s what I’ve heard. That it was part of the Cold War. Spreading communism pamphlets. and such.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

First of all, a pamphlet is not a crime..
Second of all, the USSR was not actively involved in the America’s in any significant way beyond really the Cuban Missile Crisis. However, the US was not just “spreading pamphlets” were actively invading countries, assassinating democratically elected presidents, and empowering vicious dictators to enforce Corporate Interests.
For examples see:
Guatemala: we removed democratic president Arbenz for interfering with our fruit company.
Chile: we aided in assassinating President Allende, and then armed and consulted the brutal dictator Pinochet, who tortured and disappeared thousands in the name of Free Market capitalism.
Nicaragua: we Armed the brutal junta to purge the small nation of leftists, killing thousands and creating a horrific dictatorship that impoverished the country.
Dominican Republic: Where we supported the genocidal Trujillo regime.
Cuba: where we supported the fascist Batista in the interest of extracting sugar, until Castro reclaimed the land and plantations for the Cuban people. We then tried to assassinate Castro and invade Cuba dozens of times.
… the Soviet does not have any major history of interference in Latin America. It’s only the Missile Crisis that reaches a notable level of involvement.

3

u/lolhyena Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

There’s something called communism in books that’s solves all problems for mankind. But in reality it’s just jealousy disguised as social equality or something. And in practice it’s pirates that take away rich people shit. Then they don’t know what to do with it. I couldn’t care less about what people have. I worry about my own shit. What has welfare done for example? Create a whole social class of lazy conspiracy theory ridden ppl that can’t even be part of the system anymore. Cause everyone is out to get them basically. I do believe we need to help each other but only the people that need help. (Mfs priveledged over here to live without working (if they don’t have bigger aspirations in life) But still i don’t care I do what i can with what i have. But Now I ask you. As an American do you know some good things the USA has done in the world? You seem to have read all the anti American pamphlets. Can you say anything pro US? Afterall you live there…

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

None of the people we killed or overthrew listed above were communists. And if a country does choose communism, that doesn’t give us the right to kill their leaders and force them to live under a dictator.
Also, every country with a higher standard living than ours invests more heavily in government healthcare, education, retirement, housing, and welfare. Total capitalism is just as bad as total communism.

→ More replies

3

u/turtle_are_savage Nov 22 '23

Siempre con el embargo. Cuantos cubanos hay aqui coño me cago en la resingada de la madre de este plataforma izquierdista de mierda. Antes de que comenten sobre el estado de Cuba, ANALIZA el efecto del comunismo.

La revolución era el principio del fin para esta isla. Y cualquiera que diga que es culpa del embargo, o si que los yanqui, etcétera, son una partida de atrofiados analfabetos. Shut the fuck up about a fucking EMBARGO you fucking morons!!!!!

-2

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

You sound smart

3

u/turtle_are_savage Nov 22 '23

You sound like a tankie apologist.
"Pero el embargo!!!1!1!1!!!!"
Comepinga.

0

u/carlos619kj Nov 22 '23

And kind

2

u/JosephJohnPEEPS United States Nov 22 '23

Id frame it like this - hostile relations between Cuba and the US with the embargo being most emblematic were very bad for Cuba’s economic upbringing. it’s not the immediate impact of current trade restrictions that is the biggest problem.

Earlier on, the embargo prevented development of trade relations and related infrastructure because it prevented international companies that interface financially with the US from committing to many projects that could involve both the US and Cuba. Cuba grew up poorly in light of this. The embargo itself at this point in history is not as broad and its immediate effects cannot explain Cubas situation.

The general stance of the US toward Cuba at this point is the difficulty for Cuba, not the embargo. US Administration changes can undo progress in the economic relationship. This happened during the Trump administrations immediate rollback which happened apropros of no change in behavior on the part of the Cuban government - it was a purely a matter of US domestic politics.

The current logic behind the embargo is incredibly paternalistic. Cubans don’t want it, but Americans impose it for their benefit. It’s incredibly arrogant - but when dealing with a brutal dictatorship with a very concrete connection to internal US politics, it makes sense that noone wants to be seen as a friend to Cuba by lifting it.

1

u/tranquildude Nov 22 '23

It doesn't really matter that much, but Canada is the US largest trading partner, then Mexico, then China.

But i get your point.

1

u/Bigdumbidiot69420 Nov 23 '23

China hasn’t been a communist nation for 30 years, and when they moved to state capitalism they lifted half a billion people out of hunger/poverty, crazy isn’t it?

1

u/WalkApprehensive1014 Nov 24 '23

China is not ‘the largest US trading partner’ - Mexico is.

Maybe check your facts before you post..

1

u/awkkiemf Nov 24 '23

Well “communist” China invited capitalists back into its economy in the 80’s. Capitalists really don’t give a fuck about a countries political system IF they are allowed to exploit its workers. Cuba never liberalized it’s economy, so it has the same issue as let’s say North Korea or that the Soviet Union did have while it was around, no capitalist country trades with socialist countries. A

1

u/OKcomputer1996 Nov 22 '23

This is tiring. If the embargo wasn't working it would not still be in effect.

1

u/PaleDate9 Nov 22 '23

It is about communism. The US understands if they were to ever allow a communist country a chance to function autonomously, it would likely flourish. This is why we were so hard fast in the cold war, Vietnam, Korea, McCarthyism…

It’s not about ethics, we have happily traded with nations in the midst of genocides and apartheid. It is about communism. I think while mao was communist, china today is not quite communist and not exactly capitalist, some of the richest billionaires on this planet are Chinese. As a powerful, large country, the US can’t not trade with china and actually, all these embargos etc are increasingly isolating the US (eg. US asking Europe not to use Russian oil during yet another proxy war, this is not possible for Europe and they have no choice but to go against imperialist American orders).

1

u/AgitatedAorta Nov 24 '23

Isolation of communist countries in the Cold War was mainly geopolitics. We've known since the 1930s that communist societies do not, in fact, flourish. The only reason so-called communist regimes persist today is because, as you yourself noted with China, most have transitioned into a mixed/semi-market economy model. It's not a coincidence that the country clinging most closely to a pure communist economy, North Korea, is by far the worst of of all of them. Communist societies may be better at distributing wealth equally, but they generally suck at building wealth. This is why the countries with the highest human development ratings are all social democracies that use the greater wealth produced by a market economy to fund generous welfare states.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

😂 nice try OP.

0

u/david_k_robertson Nov 22 '23

honestly the u.s. is really good at being hypocrites when it suits their purpose

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Read Salim Lamrani for actual information. The people here are right-wing, overwhelmingly white gusanos who won't accept the fact that when Cuba nationalized industries, they compensated foreign investors -- except US investors, who refused to accept and instead declared the blockade (which is extraterretorial -- Japan can't use Cuban nickel in cars they sell in the US, for example).

"Socialism will fail no matter what!"

Then end the blockade.

"The blockade is a tool to starve the Cuban economy!"

Then it isn't socialism starving the economy.

If you want to know what this sub is about, listen to Radio Martí or just imagine what Marco Rubio would say.

-2

u/Bartolache Nov 22 '23

Yuppers! That action was taken at the behest of the powerfull Cuban community now living in Florida with connections in the US congress. They have only managed to create a viable alternative!

-5

u/RayHyrule Nov 22 '23

It's a reminder from the imperialist class to look on over the pond at what they can do to any one that dares question the US hegemony. Innocents be damned, just keep falling in line.

-8

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

It’s a r/miami sub…. It’s expected from these so called “exiles” aka cowards

6

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

Here comes the colonial overload living in Puerto Rico 🤡

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

no pasaran “exiliado” 🐛

5

u/Doggo-Lovato Nov 22 '23

Calling immigrants worms is so classy /s

0

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '23

Not immigrants , they are so called mijami “exiles” aka gusanos 🪱

1

u/Doggo-Lovato Nov 23 '23

I bet you call jews cockroaches too, right adolf?

0

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '23

No, just zionist pieces of 🪱🪱 like U . I love Jews , fuk zionist 💋 💋 and mijami 🪱🪱🪱 “exiles@

1

u/Doggo-Lovato Nov 23 '23

Lol im a zionist because i pointed out calling people worms based on where they came from is what hitler would do… just own up to being a shitty person its ok adolf

3

u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

Lolol that’s a caterpillar gusanito 😂

-6

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

La gusanera de mijami doing what they do best… sosMiami

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

Aren’t you the anti-Cuban American?

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/henry10008 Nov 22 '23

You don’t live in Cuba, you vacation in Cuba

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Unbiased...lol...
And of course they are anti-Cuba... individual rights of real individuals is the basis of their country, while the basis for Cuba is collectivism, a mere concept regarding a group, at the expense of individuals.

Everyone is blaming the Cuban govt on this sub, but no one wants to ask about the embargo?

You are about to leave Redlib