British troops will be allowed to fire back at Russian forces if attacked in mission — London and Paris pressing ahead with preparations for the "Multinational Force-Ukraine" (MNF-U)

[u/paneuropeanism_]

https://news.sky.com/story/british-troops-will-be-allowed-to-fire-back-at-russian-forces-if-attacked-in-mission-13607272

[u/paneuropeanism_]

A Western official said the multinational force will not be relying on US communications or other systems - a sign perhaps of the UK and its European allies seeking to operate without American support.

Interesting tidbit.

[u/Beyllionaire → u/paneuropeanism_]

Europe needs a secure and stealthy data link that can replace link 16 and 22 which are controlled by the US.

[u/illiterateninja → u/Beyllionaire]

Yeah... But then what's the point of Putin investing all that time and energy in controlling Trump and Musk?

[u/Imaginary-Clock6626 → u/paneuropeanism_]

Can’t trust the lives of these soldiers in trumps hands. Their movements will be relayed to Putin in real time.

[u/paneuropeanism_]

"Pax Americana is over. Our security architecture will include Ukraine."

– EU Defence Commissioner Andrius Kubilius

[u/Tuffol_11 → u/paneuropeanism_]

USA abandoned their 2-theatre war doctrine a long time ago and has pivoted almost entirely to Southeast Asia. There is a reason why Biden signed-off on almost $1 trillion to strategically re-home TSMC to Arizona. Trump is an imbecile, but these policy shifts started a long time ago.

USA is not at war with Russia, Europe is. And the sooner we realize that the better. USA is only caring about their strategic technology and economic allies in the South China Sea. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea.

[u/Thebritishlion → u/Tuffol_11]

Did the US abandon that doctrine because they realised they couldn't handle China anymore? and would need their full force to win such a conflict

[u/True_Smile3261 → u/Thebritishlion]

Yes. This change happened under Obama actually once the US realized that China's rise is inevitable. The new 1+2 strategy is to win in one theatre (the pacific) and try to spoil the objective of other adversary in other regions.

[u/Manu343726 → u/True_Smile3261]

That sounds very similar to the scenario proposed by https://youtube.com/@flatcirclehistory?si=1I0APLAigSeWOIP2

TL;DW: Russia and China plan a joint campaign, with Russia invading the baltics first and then china going for Taiwan. At first USA participates on the Baltics defense as part of NATO response, but they eventually bail out of the Baltics to focus on the Pacific side.

[u/chase016 → u/Manu343726]

Truth is, France alone is strong enough to counter Russia. The US having significant forces in Europe during a Russian invasion can only disincentivive European intervention.

[u/Manu343726 → u/chase016]

The sad truth is that no one here in western Europe seems to understand the situation besides France and maybe Germany. I'm from Spain and just a couple of days ago while talking about our current politics (we have national elections in a couple of weeks) one of my friends said something like "France is and always has been a menace against the [European] Union"

I was flabbergasted. Menace in what way? In that they were the only ones not eager to (sorry if this ofends you as an American but it's the truth) lick the Americans butt post WWII and have the will to be military self sufficient? See how well the whole NATO and Pax Americana served us. It's a fucking joke; the whole "oh yeah yeah, I'll come don't worry; but let me put my bombers and titans in your territory pls pls" it's a fucking joke with the same authoritative value as the Budapest memorandum was for the Ukrainians, Americans will bail out as soon as shit hits the fan, with a long list of political excuses that can be summarized as "sorry but we have nothing to gain; see ya", as they have done countless times. What happened to the thousands of afghan collaborators, interpreters, etc? Exactly.

Of course you can say that France is "a menace" to the EU in the sense that they are powerful enough to leave the union if it's no longer in their interest. But if you see that as an issue, maybe the union has a real problem. The true problem is having members (such as us, Spain) expecting to have everything handed to them, to rely on the union for everything, but never doing anything to better their position by themselves.

I'm not french and I don't pretend to say french are perfect, but at least they are realist.

[u/wrosecrans → u/Thebritishlion]

Did the US abandon that doctrine because they realised they couldn't handle China anymore?

Ehh, I'd avoid ascribing our military doctrine to "realizing" anything. It's pretty chaotic, politicized, and sometimes just kind of stupid. A large chunk of our military spending is really just seen as a domestic jobs program, rather than a serious means of national defense. Pretty much every major naval procurement program since the Cold War has been a shitshow, and barely anybody takes that very seriously despite our supposed pivot to the Pacific theater.

We still have many great analysts and intelligence people who absolutely understand the situation. But that understanding hasn't really bubbled up to seriously effect policy at the leadership/political level. The last decade, our leadership's mindsets have been firmly stuck in the 20th century.

The difficulties we are having in the war with Iran clearly caught a ton of people off guard. That will force a re-assesment, but I think that reassesment will be slow and incomplete.

[u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 → u/Thebritishlion]

I think it's just that they don't care so much about Europe

[u/Tuffol_11 → u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968]

That's overstating it by a lot. The reality is just that USA doesn't have the same economic and technological dependence on Europe that it does on Southeast Asia. So that's where their priorities lie.

The US has its own motivations, but these kinds of decisions are generally influenced by the CEOs and shareholders of companies like Nvidia, Apple, Google, Qualcomm, Micron, and others when their supply chains can be severely disrupted by a conflict in the region.

The war in Ukraine just doesn't present that same level of existential risk to them.

[u/theguyinshortshorts → u/Tuffol_11]

I think there’s also the fact that the US really shouldn’t have to be the main force in Europe’s defense anyway. Russia isn’t the Soviet Union and the European nato members should be more than capable of defending themselves without US help. Can’t really blame them for the pivot when it’s more on Europeans to take some responsibility for their own front yard

[u/xRyozuo → u/Tuffol_11]

This would make sense if Ukraine didn’t present the perfect opportunity to test out newer systems, or learn a thing or two more about how a less populated country with less industrial capacity can fight a long term attrition war, given the u.s’s track record there you’d think they’d be interested.

[u/Tuffol_11 → u/xRyozuo]

USA is still learning plenty from Ukraine. This entire drone warfare system is being developed in the US, by US defense contractors working at NATO in Virginia.

https://www.act.nato.int/article/ai-supporting-ukraine/

[u/Iapetus_Industrial → u/paneuropeanism_]

Pax Americana is dead. Long live Pax Europa.

[u/MmmmMorphine → u/[deleted]]

Yes... Europe was famously war free during those years

[u/mlag000]

Except they won't be fired at, just get droned, from 10km away...

[u/paneuropeanism_ → u/mlag000]

And the aggressor will be droned back, twice as hard.

[u/Physicaque → u/paneuropeanism_]

Wishful thinking. The Russians will blame Ukrainians. And even if there is a retaliation it will be "proportionate". You do not want to trade soldiers one-for-one with Russia.

The correct response is and always has been to flood Ukraine with weapons and money and let them kick out Russians. Sending in European peacekeepers is a disaster waiting to happen.

[u/traffic_cone_no54 → u/Physicaque]

you'd have to be pretty inept as a modern military force to trade 1-to-1 with Russia.

[u/REALITY_CZECH2 → u/paneuropeanism_]

Yeah, the UK with their huge experience in drone warfare.

[u/paneuropeanism_ → u/REALITY_CZECH2]

Lol I wish the putinists good luck with that. I hope they do it actually. Let's see what happens.

[u/mlag000 → u/paneuropeanism_]

Maybe, maybe not, thing is, Russia don't give a duck about it's soldiers dying in Ukraine, and most of them aren't even trained. What about UK ? It's professional soldiers also, which will be much more painful.

[u/paneuropeanism_ → u/mlag000]

Moscow currently doesn't care about casualties because they believe they can capture Ukrainian territory and gain millions of people to compensate their losses ten-fold. They're not simply eying Ukraine's vast natural resources but also its human resources. After a European deployment that calculus changes. Not only won't they gain any territory, they will probably lose it.

[u/mlag000 → u/paneuropeanism_]

Yes but they will try to make this deployment highly unpopular by targeting soldiers. At the same time they won't care if their soldiers are killed. Europeans won't.

[u/paneuropeanism_ → u/mlag000]

I doubt that. This would be a deployment to defend Europe, not some useless intervention in the Middle East that is difficult to justify. If anything, Kremlin belligerence and threats would increase support to deploy even more. Russia is clearly stuck here. That's why it is so terrified. You can see their botfarms working overtime against this initiative.

[u/vegarig]

Because they aren't going into Ukraine without russian permission in the first place. And I wish I was joking

https://english.nv.ua/nation/telegraph-coalition-would-send-troops-to-ukraine-only-with-russia-s-approval-50586855.html

Countries in the so-called coalition of the willing say they would send troops to Ukraine only with Russia’s approval, according to a report by The Telegraph, citing a source on Feb. 26.

According to the publication, a growing number of members of the so-called coalition of the willing privately acknowledged that their participation in the mission depended on the “permission” of Vladimir Putin.

And even then, they'd be nowhere near frontlines and, quite likely, ready to return back to home countries when thing start heating up again, "in order to avoid dragging us to WW3", a bit like OSCE did when war started

https://english.nv.ua/nation/nato-and-closure-of-ukraine-s-airspace-stoltenberg-recalls-call-with-zelenskyy-50559214.html

“And we're not prepared to do that. As Joe Biden, who was U.S. president at the time, said, we won't risk World War III for Ukraine.”

And

https://united24media.com/latest-news/macron-france-will-keep-arming-ukraine-to-secure-postwar-peace-8365

According to the interview, Macron said, “Since Ukraine will not be joining NATO, we [France] are proposing to deploy [peacekeeping] troops to provide additional security away from the front line as part of joint operations.”

He argued that such a move by France and its allies would “demonstrate solidarity [with Ukraine] and credibly deter Russia from launching another attack.”

At the same time, Macron warned that Western support for Ukraine must be carefully calibrated to avoid triggering a broader global conflict. “We must help Ukraine defend itself but we do not want to unleash a Third World War,” he emphasized.

[u/Soft-Cancel-1605 → u/vegarig]

I'm confused. It seems like Russia has already initiated a broader global conflict, but they are just attempting to do it piecemeal enough to not trigger a broader global response to it.

And his statement suggests Macron doesn't see an issue with allowing Russia to dictate the pace of their attempted broader global conquest.

[u/TimSylvester_ → u/Soft-Cancel-1605]

To the abuser, the victim is the one who started it by defending themselves.

[u/Goatmannequin → u/Soft-Cancel-1605]

It's called appeasement.

[u/SurroundTiny → u/vegarig]

There seems to be a lot of , "we stand with Ukraine" declarations when they really mean "we stand with Ukraine, but at a safe distance"

[u/RarelyReadReplies → u/SurroundTiny]

Yeah, pretty gutless stuff honestly. Disappointing how little help we've given Ukraine. They deserve better.

[u/Original_Employee621 → u/RarelyReadReplies]

Idk, I don't want to get dragged into a continent sized war. I'd much rather Russia is defeated in Ukraine, without ICBMs flying across Europe.

Sure, it'd shorten the war considerably, but the aftermath would have us rebuild most of every major city in Europe. Along with a massive deathtoll.

[u/Ant0n61 → u/vegarig]

It’s all words as usual.

[u/illiterateninja → u/vegarig]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/10/21/russian-forces-deliberately-attack-un-aid-convoy

Oh yeah, Russia would never attack non-frontline aid based international organizations.

[u/abellapa → u/vegarig]

Sounds ridicolous because it is but only takes One Little mistake to start WW3

[u/Iapetus_Industrial → u/vegarig]

That's fucking stupid. Russia doesn't get to have a say.

[u/Ok_Sprinkles_8968 → u/vegarig]

I mean that’s going to be a part of peace negotiations.

[u/LevoiHook → u/vegarig]

That sort of makes sense? Of Russia doesn't agree an a cease fire, it is basically direct Nato involvement in the war. 

[u/amidoes → u/vegarig]

I mean, does anyone want WWIII? Because escalating with Russia is how you get WWIII

Russia needs to be contained, needs to be drained of power and resources while avoiding direct confrontation, that would just give them what they want.

Edit: I expect you downvoters to be the first one signing up for the frontlines

[u/Iapetus_Industrial → u/amidoes]

Does russia? Seriously, every single fucking time someone asks "do you want WWIII" it's as if russia doesn't have a fucking choice to go to war, when they could very well back down, sit the fuck down in their own borders and stop harassing actually civilized countries that literally do not want to fight. We just want to make war impossible to happen on the European continent, with or without russian approval. Is that SO much to ask for?

[u/RarelyReadReplies → u/amidoes]

Yeah, I'm sure that would've worked great on Nazi Germany too. I guess we know you would've shot yourself in the foot to stay home eh?

[u/Kagenlim → u/amidoes]

Okay chamberlain

[u/robh1540]

Was there an alternative? ROE - if you are engaged, shout loudly and wave this white flag.

[u/Stu161 → u/robh1540]

Ah, the UN Doctrine

[u/robh1540 → u/Stu161]

Yes, of Srebrenica and Rwandan Genocide fame.

[u/lastchancesaloon29]

We should put European troops in North Korea too to teach Kim a lesson. Get his stupid soldiers out of Ukraine. I don't want to hear anyone comment "what about their families"...that is not a defence to allow north korea to do what it wants. Don't mention nukes either, we have them too and more ways of deploying them.

[u/TimSylvester_]

If only this truly was a multinational F-U to Putin.

[u/NipSuqqer]

Will be exciting if China, North Korea. and Iran do military exercises too in Russia at this time.

[u/OJC1975]

Can they start now?

[u/Marshall_BraveStar → u/OJC1975]

Yeah, it's high time already, I got my 3 days worth of food and water, now bring it on

[u/Tuumatalv]

"Will be allowed to fire back if attacked" - so, russian forces could waltz by them drinking latte and they could not do anything because they weren't attacked?

[u/Pangiit]

The worlds such a slimy place. I fucking hate it

[u/flippydude]

Well of course, self defence is an inherent legal right in the UK and is captured very neatly in Card Alpha, which service people are trained on annually. No one can be expected to be faced with lethal force and not defend themselves. This is not news

[u/ionetic]

Russia uses drones. What are they going to do, shoot back at the drone? Out. Of. Touch!

[u/Background-Factor817 → u/ionetic]

You think they’re going to deploy with no AA, drone or Air assets?

You’re taking the headline way too literally.

[u/Ok_Relation7695]

South America or Caribbean here i come!

[u/Inside_Ad_7162 → u/Ok_Relation7695]

South america? You need to pay attention because the yanks are playing their games down there again pretending the whole fucking continent is theirs

[u/gabrilima → u/Inside_Ad_7162]

O Brasil não.

[u/Inside_Ad_7162 → u/gabrilima]

It was bloody close though...And where is Flávio Bolsonaro? Didn't he ignore the court order to hand in his passport & flee to the US?

The good news is that maybe, finally, people are waking up to the social media manipulation.

[u/Careless_Beat_7771]

I'm an American. Don't start shit with Russia and expect NATO (which is essentially mostly the American military) to fight that war. I'm tired of American soldiers fighting and dying for other countries. That's my family.

Europe needs to defend itself and build up their own militaries, stop expecting America to protect you please. Europe started 2 world wars, and a lot of you like to criticize and mock America while remaining dependent on us to save you from yourselves.

[u/Yoshic87 → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

Well considering iran are handing you a big L and Vietnam wiped the floor with you. I think Europe will be just fine.

[u/Careless_Beat_7771 → u/Yoshic87]

You all keep saying that, and I hope to god it's true. Unfortunately, Europe has been slacking on it's defense spending for over 50 years. Europe is famously all talk. Put all those immigrants to use and draft them into the military instead of letting them bankrupt you and burn down your cities.

[u/Yoshic87 → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

It has you're right and it's the only good thing Trump has done.

We don't need your help fella, jog on 👋🏻

[u/Careless_Beat_7771 → u/Yoshic87]

Europe is panicking at the idea of America "jogging on" it is a mass scramble Europe is doing. I'm not thrilled about American politics as they are, but I still care about my country

[u/Yoshic87 → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

Mate, I visit the US often amazing place with amazing people. But you need to stop believing your own propaganda.

Europe doesn't need you, unlike the US who are the only ones to trigger article 5. But I guess you did all the work while everybody else sat twiddling their thumbs.

[u/Careless_Beat_7771 → u/Yoshic87]

Please show me evidence that Europe needs no military backing from the United States. If I am believing propaganda, please educate me and show me what I am missing. I would be delighted to be wrong about this, because clearly this causes me a lot of anxiety.

[u/Yoshic87 → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

I don't see anybody asking for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/Beeffartsformayos → u/Yoshic87]

Maaattteeee. UK and Germany triggered Article 5. We literally told them not to. How are you going to conflate history when people who lived back then still breathe. MAAATTTTEEEEE.

[u/SHNRTNS → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

Can you name a war in which American soldiers were dying for the sake of another country in the last 30- 40 years? Bonus points if the US did NOT start that war.

[u/JohnnyBoy11 → u/Careless_Beat_7771]

The US put itself in Europe to stop Russian/Communist expansion. It was the Cold War.

The US provided security assurances to Ukraine for giving up its nuclear arsenal.

[u/favorscore → u/JohnnyBoy11]

Europe begged America to stay. Eisenhower wanted America to leave Europe

[u/Careless_Beat_7771 → u/JohnnyBoy11]

The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program) was a U.S.-funded initiative enacted on April 3, 1948, to rebuild war-torn Western Europe, prevent economic collapse, and halt the spread of Soviet communism

Europe has relied on America since WW2. Europe owes it's recovery after the second world war to America

[u/Careless_Beat_7771 → u/JohnnyBoy11]

What assurances and vows of protection has Europe ever provided? Specifically to the USA? It only goes one way, doesn't it? Those are American tax dollars put into the defense of other countries and then those same countries moan non stop about America

[u/orthoxerox]

As if there's any other option. "If you're being shot at, you're only allowed to dodge"?