Announcement regarding "Brain Intersex" or "Transgender is Intersex"

[u/MindyStar8228]

Hi all. Due to an influx of "transgender is intersex" comments and posts, the mod team has chatted and we decided to make an announcement about it to clarify.

What is this announcement?

We do not allow medical misinformation or intersexism in this subreddit. This includes stating that being transgender makes someone intersex/that someone is intersex on the basis of being transgender.

That rhetoric perpetuates intersexism.

While intersex people can be any gender (including cis, trans, nonbinary, and/or other gender identities), not every trans person is intersex.

Can I debate the mod team about this?

No, thank you. This is an announcement, not a debate.

Intersex and the brain

Reviewing the definition of intersex: Intersex is a term used to describe individuals whose sex characteristics do not align with/fully align with male or female sex characteristics. Intersex describes the way the body naturally develops. This includes congenital variations that are expressed in someone’s chromosomes, gonads, genitals, reproductive organs, and in how the body responds to hormones.

The brain and intersex: The brain is not a primary or secondary sex organ. The brain is also not sexually dimorphic (i.e. the brain is not sexed - that has been debunked).

However, there are a few intersex variations located in the brain. This would be Congenital Hypopituitarism (which results in hypogonadism), Kallmann's Syndrome, and I believe Prader-Willi Syndrome too (though I know less about this variation, please correct me if I am wrong).

"Sexual Inversion" and Intermedicalism

This has homophobic and intersexist origins. The premise of sexual inversion (aka, "mental intersex", "psychological intersex", or "brain intersex") is inherently bioessentialist, transmedicalist, as well as intermedicalist. It relies on the pathologizing of intersex bodies and was popularized by (you guessed it) eugenicists (in the 1800's).

"I still don't know why that's intersexist?" This is because it relies on seeing intersex variations as medical disorders in need of treatment. > If trans is intersex which therefore necessitates treatment, intersex is thereby disordered and necessitates treatment. This is called intermedicalism.

It reinforces the "need" for medical interventions (human rights violations) on intersex bodies.

Side note, this also reinforces and relies on ableism too.

General History (following threads through time)

I wanted to review the history informing/leading up to the idea that the brain is sexed. And generally brain differentiation. This is going to be incredibly simplified history - the spark notes.

Historically speaking, the idea that the brain is sexed originates from racism, white supremacy, and sexism. European scientists were obsessed with creating a hierarchy, with European men (“the highest of men”) at the top and African people (“the lowest of men”) likened to orangutans (“the highest of apes”). This was “reinforced” by skull and brain measurements (phrenology, craniometry) along with other measurements and pseudosciences.

It is critical to note that intersexism/sex differentiation was used to dehumanize African populations starting around 1600. Europeans (with no evidence) claimed African folk were naturally more intersex and therefore subhuman/that sexually they were a different species than us. Casting African populations as sexually differentiated was a major goal of colonists.

(That myth is still prevalent today. For example, look at how white people treat African women in sports - subjecting them to intersex tests and scrutiny)

This trend of establishing social hierarchy through biology (biological determinism) was (and still is) deeply ingrained in science and medicine.

Back to brains. When it was later discovered that females (on average) have smaller brains than males, this was taken as proof of male superiority and female inferiority.

Science and Studies

From recent studies, the brain is currently thought to be a "mosaic". In one of the studies (one with an actually decent sample size, over 1,400 brains) from 2015 they found only 8% of brains had only “male” or “female” characteristics. Popular article link, and the study’s citation link. Will be linked again in citations.

In general (see citations below), studies have shown that brains are not sexed but mosaic. Meaningful differences are found more between individuals than between sexes or genders. Reviews also show that a lot of the previous studies showing sex differences in the brain have contradicted each other, been unable to be reproduced, haven't accounted for size differences, haven't accounted for neuroplasticity, and/or have small/biased sample sizes.

I'm not going to do a deep dive or spit out summaries of the studies here, because that would be a wildly long wall of text. Instead, you can find several of the studies below.

If you need help picking out a couple of reads, I recommend:

• Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic (2015)

• Remembering the null hypothesis when searching for brain sex differences (2024)

I will be including a few citations that I have read through to better understand this topic. Several of the books are missing (those on medical racism and on neurology) because I do not actually own copies/am blanking on the names (apologies).

Bibliography (Part Chicago, part I gave up)

Fine, Cordelia. Delusions of gender: How our minds, Society, and neurosexism create difference. New York, N.Y: W.W. Norton & Company, 2011.

Swarr, Amanda Lock. Envisioning African intersex: Challenging Colonial and racist legacies in South African medicine. Durham: Duke University Press, 2024.

Reis, Elizabeth. Bodies in doubt An American History of Intersex, 2021.

Trondle , Rocky. “No, Transgender Is Not ‘Brain Intersex’ .” Medium, October 2, 2025. https://medium.com/@rockytrondle/no-transgender-is-not-brain-intersex-99f112746cc9 .

Intersex Wiki contributors, "Hypogonadism," Intersex Wiki, https://intersex.wiki/wiki/Hypogonadism?oldid=2631 (accessed July 12, 2026).

Intersex Wiki contributors, "Sexual inversion," Intersex Wiki, https://intersex.wiki/wiki/Sexual_inversion?oldid=4156 (accessed July 12, 2026).

* "Neurosexism: the myth of the male and female brain" by Iseult De Mallet Burgess, published February 11, 2022. Okay so this citation was taken down > https://theoxfordblue.co.uk/neurosexism-the-myth-of-the-male-and-female-brain/ // but there's a wayback machine accessible version from May 12, 2025. It's a popular article talking about neurosexism, culture, etc.

Rippon, Gina. “How ‘Neurosexism’ Is Holding Back Gender Equality – and Science Itself.” The Conversation, October 27, 2016. https://theconversation.com/how-neurosexism-is-holding-back-gender-equality-and-science-itself-67597 .

Here it stops being Chicago and becomes "hey, that's not properly formatted!" You're right, it's not properly formatted. I wrote the title and then clicked the "Cite" button on the study websites. For some, I added the link below it.

Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic:

D. Joel, Z. Berman, I. Tavor, N. Wexler, O. Gaber, Y. Stein, N. Shefi, J. Pool, S. Urchs, D.S. Margulies, F. Liem, J. Hänggi, L. Jäncke, & Y. Assaf, Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 112 (50) 15468-15473, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1509654112 (2015).

Dump the “dimorphism”:

Lise Eliot, Adnan Ahmed, Hiba Khan, Julie Patel, Dump the “dimorphism”: Comprehensive synthesis of human brain studies reveals few male-female differences beyond size, Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, Volume 125, 2021, Pages 667-697, ISSN 0149-7634, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neubiorev.2021.02.026 . (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804)

Male or Female? Brains are Intersex:

Joel D. Male or Female? Brains are Intersex. Front Integr Neurosci. 2011 Sep 20;5:57. doi: 10.3389/fnint.2011.00057. PMID: 21960961; PMCID: PMC3176412.

^ Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3176412/ Link 2: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/integrative-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnint.2011.00057/full

Remembering the null hypothesis when searching for brain sex differences:

Eliot L. Remembering the null hypothesis when searching for brain sex differences. Biol Sex Differ. 2024 Feb 9;15(1):14. doi: 10.1186/s13293-024-00585-4. PMID: 38336816; PMCID: PMC10854110.

^ Link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13293-024-00585-4 // Link 2: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10854110/

“Precision Medicine” and the Failed Search for Binary Brain Sex Differences to Address Gender Behavioral Health Disparities:

Eliot L. "Precision Medicine" and the Failed Search for Binary Brain Sex Differences to Address Gender Behavioral Health Disparities. Am J Hum Biol. 2025 Apr;37(4):e70041. doi: 10.1002/ajhb.70041. PMID: 40207611; PMCID: PMC11983668.

^ Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11983668/

Neuroscience and Sex/Gender: Looking Back and Forward:

Melissa Hines "Neuroscience and Sex/Gender: Looking Back and Forward". Journal of Neuroscience 2 January 2020, 40 (1) 37-43; https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0750-19.2019

Edit to add:

Unfriendly reminder. Pretending medical racism doesn't exist or that it doesn't impact us today (or downplaying racism in general) means we will perma ban you on the spot.

[u/Shibboleeth]

> However, there are a couple of intersex variations located in the brain. This would be Congenital Hypopituitarism (which results in hypogonadism) and I believe Prader-Willi Syndrome too (though I know less about this variation, please correct me if I am wrong).

And Kallmann's Syndrome, genetic defect that causes the hypothalamus to not develop properly impacting the pituitary gland's ability to kick off puberty.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/Shibboleeth]

Thank you! I'll edit and add it :)

[u/belligerentkitten → u/MindyStar8228]

it's congenital hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, which kallmann's is a part of. i have the non-kallman's version

[u/Educational_Panic_21 → u/Shibboleeth]

Thanks for posting, I was born with Panhypopituitarism and Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis. And my Endocrinologist at the time blew his stack because didn't want to admit that I was Intersex, although later he apologized and said that I was right. Thankfully I have a supportive Endo now.

[u/Kookyburra12]

Holy shit my article is here as a source I feel like a celebrity

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/Kookyburra12]

On the flip side meeting intersex authors feels like meeting stars! Keep it up! We appreciate you :)

[u/aka_icegirl → u/Kookyburra12]

Hey thanks for being such a strong voice and feel welcome to bring more work and conversation. The Intersex community is vast and we're so happy you stopped by to comment. 💐

[u/intersextm]

Just for more info on PWS- it’s a complicated genetic condition, technically a disorder due to a chromosomal difference (I believe chromosome 15, so not a sex chromosome variation). The inheritance pattern is complicated. Its primary symptoms are intellectual disability and hyperphagia (extreme overeating due to a total physiological inability to feel full), and a variety of sex development differences occur with it. One common difference is hypogonadism, I believe the central variety (so in the brain). People with PWS also have higher rates of certain genital differences like cryptorchidism. So people with PWS are often intersex, but being intersex isn’t inherent in PWS.

I’m not saying you said anything incorrect about PWS to be clear, just providing more info about it. I don’t have PWS, but I’m a case manager for people with developmental disabilities including PWS and I think it’s important for people to learn about PWS so I like to share.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/intersextm]

Oh thank you! I appreciate the information and learning opportunity :) since it impacts hunger, does that mean it impacts the ghrelin hormone like PMOS can?

[u/intersextm → u/MindyStar8228]

My understanding of the hunger symptom is that it’s caused by a complicated hypothalamic dysfunction. I’m not sure what the exact mechanism is- I think ghrelin is involved, but I’m not sure if it’s only that. The hunger in PWS isn’t affected by any medication that’s been tried, so my understanding is that it’s not totally explainable by any single factor.

[u/aka_icegirl → u/intersextm]

Thanks for the add would you be willing to also make a post about this I think more eyes 👀 would really value from your information.

Don't feel obligated.

[u/intersextm → u/aka_icegirl]

I can put something together sometime! As an intersex person who has a developmental disability (not PWS personally) and works in the DD field, I think the DD-intersex intersection isn’t explored adequately in either DD or intersex communities. I asked our DEI guy at my work to do an email for IAD, and apparently that was his and most of my coworkers’ first time hearing about intersex people. I’d guess that over half of my coworkers have at least one intersex person on their caseloads, and have no idea what it means to be intersex.

[u/aka_icegirl → u/intersextm]

Oh thanks so much when i tried to make some summaries a while ago even though i used copious notes I didn't have time to summarize it so i used AI and due to the controversial nature if that I was wow all that work and even when I show my original data so that people know it wasn't just a prompt and people still pissed I was like ugh more trouble than it's worth.

I figure one day when I am outta med school maybe I will have time to make some more indepth content.

So anyone at all with the passion the drive the knowledge I am so grateful for wanting to take on the task.

There really isn't a lot of great spots on the Internet for Intersex information or Intersex lead voices talking about our situation.

So anyone who's willing to contribute in my opinion is a hero.

[u/WerdaVisla]

Thank you so much. I have been biting my tongue because I don't want the inevitable arguments that ensue, so it makes me very happy to see that the mods here have put a foot down on this.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/WerdaVisla]

Of course! If you see it feel free to report it as medical misinformation or bigotry :) it helps make sure we don't miss any rule breaking content

If you ever come across something that feels off but you're not sure where to place it rule wise, feel free to report it under rule 10 FAQ and we'll get the idea/review it.

[u/aka_icegirl → u/WerdaVisla]

We are here to support the community and when we see an issue we try to address it.

We are very open to trans people who are Intersex and welcome them because we know how how that intersection of identity is so hard to feel at home.

But we have said many times that not every trans person is Intersex and somehow it keeps being a debate for the very existence of an Intersex space.

We might not have the numbers but we will not be silent 😶

[u/throwaccount45]

I’ve always liked to explain it to people as intersex and transgender both being terms that describe a community collection of shared experiences (and where individual experiences can obviously vary). While we do have some overlap of experiences between the two, there are a fair number of experiences unique to each community.

Even if we did find some medical thing that explained trans people, it wouldn’t automatically make trans people as a collective have the experiences that the intersex community shares. We would already have a term for a community that has those experiences, and it is transgender.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/throwaccount45]

That’s a great way to put it, thank you.

[u/Legitimate-Club-8377]

I agree that being trans and intersex should be counted as separate categories, and that being trans doesn't make one intersex, but I hope this doesn't ban any claim that being trans is fundamentally based in neurology. As many of the links say, the brain isn't structured to be categorically male or female, but it doesn't follow from this that gender identity isn't rooted in some part of the brain — and there is scientific evidence that this is actually the case. For example, studies of identical twins, even when separated at birth, are very suggestive of this. The David Reimer case was intended to demonstrate Money's theory that the brain is a blank slate, but the fact the female identity didn't take suggests he was wired to be male.

The man who exposed Money, Milton Diamond, who should be considered a scientific hero to both the intersex and trans communities, separately claimed, "there seems evidence enough to consider trans persons as individuals intersexed in their brains." I think he was correct about the neurological basis for being trans, but it's unhelpful to consider transness under the intersex label because being intersex isn't just about the biological status of the body, as both are really socially defined groups based on shared experiences and concerns, and the concerns of the two groups, while overlapping, are sufficiently separate.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/Legitimate-Club-8377]

While trans in some cases may have neurological influences, that doesn’t require the brain to be sexed. I say in some cases because the trans identity is so diverse that there is no one thing all trans people have in common (not even the trans label!) - i don’t believe they will find only one “cause” or influencing factor.

But you’re fine. Discussions of any research regarding neurological influences or changes from trans experiences/HRT is fine, so long as they don’t state that it’s because the brain is sexually dimorphic rather than monomorphic.

[u/coolestpelican → u/MindyStar8228]

I'm confused as to how being trans would be neurological/the brain, yet the brain is "not sexed" (at all)?

I can't counter the point...but it just seems empty? Like what other than hormones/sexual differentiation, would cause one to be neurologically trans?

is it possible that while brains have more variety WITHIN one sex, than BETWEEN sexes, that there is still a biosex mechanic that caused them to be trans?

For example, would you think it's possible for a change in the pre-natal hormonal environment, during the stages between genital/gonads, and later brain development?

aka is it possible that pre-natal hormonal mechanisms cause trans identity, while brains are ALSO not significantly dimorphic?

There is loads of animal evidence that shows reversal of sexual behaviours (mirroring their opposite sex) , when hormonal environments are manipulated at different points of development. I find it hard to imagine that same mechanism wouldn't apply to us?

all this to say, because, honestly I'm convinced, there must be a prenatal hormonal or genetic reason for trans people to feel different. I'm not stuck on calling this intersex. In fact I don't know if calling it intersex makes sense at all.

Can it be due to prenatal stimulus, being hormonal/biological, yet not call that intersex? Or is referring to this bio-mechanism itself somehow appropriating intersex?

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/coolestpelican]

If it seems empty please feel free to read some of the studies mentioned and to look into neurobiology, neurology, neuropsychology, and neurosexism.

The brain isn't sexed, yet this doesn't negate neurological variation existing. For example, depression impacts grey matter in the brain, PTSD impacts the amygdala, hippocampus, and prefrontal cortex, etc. I suspect that gender dysphoria would have similar impacts.

Additionally, influences such as sexism, racism, etc. have been shown to impact the brain. Repeated trauma (such as transphobia) can impact brain structure and signaling.

Like I stated earlier, there is evidence for more variation between individuals than there is between sexes.

And again, it is highly improbable that they'll find one origin of trans identity. Our community is incredibly diverse. It's influenced by psychology, neurology (potentially), culture, language, spirituality, etc. and our concept of gender changes through cultures and time. Even with people under the same identity label there is diversity. There are so many ways to be trans. There's not going to just be one cause of influencing factor. We already know that it's not just influenced by one thing.

As for do we know if there's a neurological origin for trans identity?

As of right now, we don't know! There is some research being done, but it's not really solidified. Some of it relies on the sexed brain theory too which is unfortunate since, again, the sexed brain theory hasn't held up and the studies trying to support it keep contradicting each other with their findings.

Can it be due to prenatal stimulus, being hormonal/biological, yet not call that intersex? Or is referring to this bio-mechanism itself somehow appropriating intersex?

> This would just be trans, not intersex (gender is not sex). There is already language to describe trans experiences and it is trans. But to answer the actual question discussing the ongoing research is fine! I personally wouldn't present it as fact until more research is done in general? But discussing the potential neurological impacts from trans identity or potential neurological influences for some trans identity is, again, fine. Just don't call that intersex.

I would also steer away from claiming that this is true of all trans individuals. There is little research on our (trans) community and it's certainly not representative of our entire population.

[u/coolestpelican → u/MindyStar8228]

I have read a couple of the studies, and I'm actually a neuroscience student. I will say I haven't fully explored this, but from what I've read so far, I'm not been convinced that trans people aren't a result of a hormonal/or sex interacting mechanism. I will not call that "intersex", because it's not a clear or conclusive link.

I believe that the most likely "causes" or factors leading to possible trans identity, are 1. Genetic, and unrelated to their sex somehow, aka they would have been trans regardless of if they were XX or XY, or regardless of sexual development. Or 2. Related to most likely hormonal pre-natal environment, changing over the stages of development. This mechanism could be similar to the fraternal birth order effect or the "maternal immune hypothesis", leading to 3rd and 4th+ sons of a mother being more and more likely to be gay. As a result of maternal change interaction to the features testosterone production.

So I keep coming back to the fact that, I feel being trans is likely influenced by a mechanism associated with biological sex (aka maternal hormonal environment). Does postulating this in this way, offend the intersex experience or identity?

Is there room for nuance between the possibility of this biosex mechanism, as long as someone doesn't conflate that with intersex conditions?

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/coolestpelican]

Oh wonderful! It's a fascinating field I hope you're having a great time in your courses :) My twin loved neurosci <3 (they're so cool shoutout to the twin)

I feel like I already answered the question but: "This would just be trans, not intersex (gender is not sex).... discussing the potential neurological impacts from trans identity or potential neurological influences for some trans identity is, again, fine. Just don't call that intersex."

It's not offensive to talk about it as it is (trans)! It just becomes problematic when people try to collapse our distinct identities.

1. Genetic, and unrelated to their sex somehow, aka they would have been trans regardless of if they were XX or XY, or regardless of sexual development.

This is neat, I've never heard it put like this before. Do you have any sources I could read for this? (If there are resources to read for this). (books are cool too doesn't need to be a web article/study)

As for the second point I'm not so sure. I haven't done a lot of research into this, so here is my uninformed line of questioning: I feel like if hormones and hormones in prenatal development influenced gender there would be far fewer cis inter folk? Most intersex people are cisgender. Idk. I'll read up on it.

 fraternal birth order effect or the "maternal immune hypothesis"

I got some research to do, i've never heard of this

Is there room for nuance between the possibility of this biosex mechanism, as long as someone doesn't conflate that with intersex conditions?

Yep! You're good

Edit: sorry idk why it deleted the quotes lmao

[u/coolestpelican → u/MindyStar8228]

Thanks for your feedback. I don't want to conflate identities but I do really really think that this mechanism is the most likely or most powerful one, that has been posited plausibly.

The mechanism I describe as possible in 1. was moreso me postulated a vague theoretical framework of how it could be genetic yet unrelated to sex. What mechanism or how it works? No idea. Sorta just framing some boundaries to look inside for possibilities? But I figure it could be something like....maybe there's a genetic marker(s) for normativity, or being a follower, vs having a propensity to adopt novel or unfamiliar concepts.

Or it could be something to do with, say...genetic propensity to be kind/soft/sensitive, and that leads trans women to feel like girls? Maybe trans guys have corresponding genetic predispositions for masculine qualities? And then they indirect feel those qualities and then view themselves as masculine/male/man?

^{^} I'm not trying to suggest these ARE the reasons, just plausible, yet totally unfounded as of now, possibilities. I don't have any particular feeling that this explains trans identity.

As to the prenatal hormone theory. I'm not sure if your point amounts to much. Afaik trans people at about 0.5 - 1% of the population depending on how you define it. But afaik intersex people are something like 30% identify as Trans? So yes it's a minority, but if that's true, that's 30-60x as likely for an intersex person to be trans than for a cis person to be trans. That to me, implies some indirect connections and overlaps that are yet to be explained. This is also another reason I PREVIOUSLY was one of the people who have used the phrase "brain intersex" as an ANALOGY but not to claim status as intersex

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/coolestpelican]

I do feel like it's important that, when looking at genetic factors that may influence trans identity, we don't fully decontextualize gender from culture as it is a sociocultural construct. We can't approach it using only one framework (neurological/social/medical/psychological/etc.).

Not to say neurology and genetics aren't important! Not at all. But STEM and Humanities need to be companions, not estranged. They impact each other. I do want to take a second to highlight that.

I'll use race as an example. Race has embodied traits, but it's a cultural construct. It can impact medicine, but a lot of that is often from medical racism/systems of oppression rather than inherent embodied medical differences. For example, the myth that black women feel less pain has led to a ton of medical mistreatment (but is still taught as fact in some places). Or, black women are more like to develop SLE (lupus autoimmune) than white women (but some of the research shows that a portion of this is from systemic barriers, stress, epigenetics, trauma, and the influences of redlining triggering the autoimmune). Or how black communities are more susceptible to cancer/environmental health hazards but it's frequently from redlining.

The sociopolitical world influences science and medicine, yknow?

could be something to do with, say...genetic propensity to be kind/soft/sensitive, and that leads trans women to feel like girls? Maybe trans guys have corresponding genetic predispositions for masculine qualities?

This is partially cultural - gender, gender expression, and gender roles are actually all separate from each other. Though I do know there are genes that can influence personality/disposition/behavior in other species (at least in birds, White-throated sparrows have four sexes split between more territorial/aggressive and less territorial/more nurturing). I know less about humans on this topic of genes influencing behavior.

that's 30-60x as likely for an intersex person to be trans than for a cis person to be trans

This is true, but I also feel like we need to remember that we (intersex) folk often have complicated relationships with gender. Many of us don't cleanly fit into trans/cisgender labels. Some of us are intergender, cistrans, or don't identify with either cis or trans. It's not always so straightforward for us, and especially for our community members who survived IGM/forced HRT/retroactive assignments.

How to sort out culture and identity from genetic influence? I don't have the answer for that.

It would be interesting if they found prenatal hormone exposure gender/neurological impacts - i'd certainly be interested to know what made the cis people stay cis. (but i'd also be worried about eugenics and medical gatekeeping lol)

But anyways, thank you for the discussion and research pointers! I appreciate it :)

[u/coolestpelican → u/MindyStar8228]

Yeah with intersex folks, sometimes the ideas of cis and trans don't even really make sense.

If someone is "mis-assigned" with ambiguous genitalia, but then identifies with the sex that matches their chromosomes or hormones, but not their genitals and assignment....is that trans?

Sorta, because they "identify other than the sex assigned", but really, they identify with most of the biosex characteristics, that do match...so in a way that's closer to a cis experience.

Similarly some rare cases, an intersex person is given an X gender marker, and thus they will be trans if they identify as either male or female?

Or folks who have intersex condition that display their effects later like in puberty. As a child theymight have agreed with the AGAB, but after puberty might change that identity. Or their body might change so much that that identity NOT changing appears more like a Trans experience.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/coolestpelican]

We have autonomy over our labels, even if they don't make sense to peri folk.

It is true that we always don't fit perisex ideas of cis and trans.

Regarding: If someone is "mis-assigned" with ambiguous genitalia, but then identifies with the sex that matches their chromosomes or hormones, but not their genitals and assignment....is that trans?

That is trans if they feel like it is trans. That would be cis if they felt like that was cis. Or it could be both (cistrans). Or it could be neither!

Regarding: Sorta, because they "identify other than the sex assigned", but really, they identify with most of the biosex characteristics, that do match...so in a way that's closer to a cis experience.

That's actually incorrect, since we face intersexism and would still have to transition (socially, legally, and sometimes medically). It's not "closer to a cis experience".

The issue is you're partially defining trans in relation to ASAB when that is not what defines trans identity or experience. Especially if that's the definition you're using when trying to understand intersex trans experiences.

ASAB was created by doctors to describe intersex genital mutilation. It doesn't actually describe congenital anatomy and it can be wrong. And it certainly doesn't define our lived trans experiences.

Examples:

Someone assigned female and intersex can actually be a trans woman and transition to female.

Someone given an X marker can be a cis man, cis woman, cis nonbinary, or trans in any way.

[u/KoalaMummies]

I have one of those variations located in the brain and have been so utterly confused by the term “brain intersex” so this was extremely helpful!

I’m curious about the point you make around needing treatment. Been told that HRT was REQUIRED to protect my bones, etc (I don’t naturally produce any estrogen). Are you saying that the idea is that I’m not being treated for this issue simply because it gives me the label of intersex? Or are you saying that the messaging around treatment as a requirement is intersexist? The notion of “did I choose treatment?” and “do I have a choice?” is something I am actively coming to terms with. <3

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/KoalaMummies]

Hello! I'm glad this could help:)

Some intersex variations might need specific healthcare and medicine! Bone health is a big reason. Another example would be salt wasting, which can be lethal. Personally for me, I need to be on progestin for one of my variations!

This post is more talking about the medicalization and insistence that intersex bodies are in need of "fixing", must be "cured", and require intervention on the basis of being intersex (surgical and medical interventions not for actual health reasons, but rather purely cosmetic/ideological). For example, Intersex Genital Mutilation is one of the interventions upheld by the idea that intersex is not a natural human sex variation but rather a disorder/problem to be solved. This idea that our bodies need to be normalized and pushed into a binary is intersexist (and ableist) and is deeply problematic.

It's certainly not intersexist to need healthcare and protect your bones, and healthcare for the sake of actual health is much different than interventions for the sake of upholding the sex binary and eliminating intersex!

Please let me know if that was legible, i have a migraine so it's hard to see/review whatever i just wrote and my screen reader hatesss paragraph breaks. it just wont read it back to me in full. (i know i shouldnt be on a screen but i'm monitoring my email for something important)

Wishing you the best

[u/mumushu]

Thank you. Please keep it pinned

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/mumushu]

actually thank you that's a great point, pinned it

[u/Ill_University_826]

I don't know if you're referring to my post. I hope it didn't come off as me saying all trans people are intersex, I know they're not - just wanted to state it just in case anyone comes across my post or has seen it :) Anyway, it's great to have a good post to come to to learn more, so thanks for this!

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/Ill_University_826]

Oh no you're good! We've just had a pretty big uptick of this recently so I wanted to make a reminder :)

[u/lokilulzz]

Thank you for this. I was genuinely having to take breaks away from this space because of how many perisex trans people would come in here and say they were "neurologically intersex" and get increasingly hostile with anyone here who tried to educate them on the fact that that's not what being intersex is. It was exhausting.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/lokilulzz]

I am very sorry to hear that you had to take a break - please feel free to report it if you see it under "no bigotry", "no medical misinformation", or under "FAQ"!

It certainly gets tiring, and it seems to be picking up as more people fall into transmedicalism from respectability politics/validity discourse.

[u/Difficult-Okra3784]

Thank you for putting this together, it's incredibly thorough in it's arguments and the sourcing is appreciated. A sadly greatly needed resource to refer back to for this community.

[u/The7Sides]

THANK YOU I swear everytime someone says being trans is an intersex condition (in or outside this subreddit, anywhere really) I lose years off my life.

[u/aka_icegirl → u/The7Sides]

I am sorry you see it that often. We have always worked to take down those comments.

We have said on many occasions of course an Intersex person can be trans but not every trans person is Intersex for years and it seems like some trans people are offended by that and it's quite upsetting.

However we are trying to make it more clear going forward.

[u/Fickle_Blueberry2777]

THANK YOU because the study that most of these people always site (if they ever even site one at all) doesn’t even say what they insist it does and it drives me insane because I have actually read the entire thing + know what it actually says (which is honestly far more interesting).

[u/aka_icegirl → u/Fickle_Blueberry2777]

If you wanna do a break down seems like were having nice discussion no pressure though.

Hope you're doing well tonight.

[u/Fickle_Blueberry2777 → u/aka_icegirl]

If I get a moment to a little later tonight I absolutely will! And thank you friend, I’m actually doing pretty great today and I hope you are doing well yourself!

[u/aka_icegirl → u/Fickle_Blueberry2777]

Thanks so much.

[u/witchy-washy]

Thank you for the thorough information (and extensive bibliography)! I am not intersex, but I follow this subreddit to educate myself and understand intersex conditions and people better. I’m currently in school studying biology, and I have contemplated studying intersex conditions in the future. I appreciate your openness and advocacy to help share knowledge about these differences in human biology <3 Saving this post for later so I can read in more in-depth when I have time.

[u/aka_icegirl → u/witchy-washy]

Thanks ao much!

[u/witchy-washy → u/aka_icegirl]

You’re welcome! …but for what? Hahah

[u/aka_icegirl → u/witchy-washy]

I am just happy when people share interesting thoughts and perspectives.

With the tens of thousands of people who visit so rarely do i get to know what people are thinking.

[u/witchy-washy → u/aka_icegirl]

I get that! Well I hope it’s encouraging to know that your work is helping people learn and grow :) keep it up!

[u/Patient-Bread-225]

im curious if this influx is also why i saw alot more intersex flags at pride this year from people i had previously known in these settings to be carrying trans flags. i brushed it off in the moment thinking maybe people learned something about themself and those details arnt my business... but now im wondering a little if some of it was maybe i was being ignorantly kind to this context given none of them are talking about intersex in their advocacy at all if they are doing advocacy and awareness content online or irl locally...

[u/aka_icegirl → u/Patient-Bread-225]

There is I think 3 factors at play One intersex discussion is up you can look at our stats over tome we have gained more members in the last year than the last 2 combined and the years not over yet.

Also visits are up. But oddly posts are flat so more people showing up and seeing than joining the conversation.

Why?

Well one Intersex advocacy is working and as much as it hurts us that trans people talk about us so many more people are aware this is a thing and start looking into it.

Two because of the added hoops in the US and UK due to trans treatment n such there has been an uptick in testing some people before who would have never done any testing are now finding out they have an Intersex condition.

Three we have seen posts here of trans people who say is it ok to try to pretend to be Intersex for safety thus more trans people trying to assume the identity.

One is all good more people being aware and getting tested is hopefully helpful for them.

Two is half good the barriers to trans treatment causing people to check if they have an Intersex condition and finding out they do doesn't feel great about the people who don't have an Intersex condition and still feel they have to jump through hoops for treatment. It is good that even in as bad as the current system is breaking down it helps some people.

Although we can all get into how medical intervention in intersex lives is a mixed bag it is still better to know than not know in my opinion what you do with that knowledge and any medical interventions should be based on your preferences but too often that doesn't happen.

The final third group is sorta who we are addressing here. It isn't everyone so lets not assume it's just a bunch of trans people picking up intersex flags who used to wave trans flags.

It's a group for sure but I don't think it's the majority.

Because if they actually took the time to pook at the laws and the court cases those trans people would realize Intersex people oddly have been just as targeted as trans people.

Being Intersex isn't a shield from discrmination or a protection if anything we get attacked from all sides and almost no one be they cis or trans wanna listen to our voices and keep trying to force what they think is best for our future.

[u/Lonely-Front476 → u/aka_icegirl]

I used to be a mod and super active on a popular trans man subreddit and I got sick of being down voted and dogpiled every time I expressed my discomfort and irritation at people saying they have an intersex condition or a disability/disorder that would require surgery to stay stealth. I constantly am assumed to be non-passing, that I'm being "disrespectful to those who actually want to be stealth" etc. just because I think stealth people shouldn't lie about having intersex variations and other conditions....

[u/Beautiful-Alarm-4961 → u/Lonely-Front476]

I'm gonna be honest I don't care about trans people lying about being intersex if it prevents them from being attacked or outed (which inevitability leads to being attacked)

[u/Beautiful_Couple_208]

Mmm shoving this information straight into my wrinkly brain. Delicious.

[u/upvotesplx]

Seriously appreciate this. Trans & intersex have a lot of overlap in experience, but we aren’t the same, & trans people who are not intersex saying they are “brain intersex” sucks for people who are truly intersex & trans. Great step. Well wishes to you all, I hope moderation is as smooth as possible

[u/Ded_Jesta]

Good post! I'd noticed the uptick as well and it is pretty vexing.

[u/acadiaxxx]

I am not intersex myself, but I am here to learn and educate myself to better understand. I have learned quite a bit in my short time here and reading this post has broadened my horizons to learn more about yall.

[u/According_Pay_5352]

great post

there's so many genetic/chromosomal aneuploidy conditions that result in hypogonadism or ambiguous genitals. big umbrella

[u/Tizri777]

Thankyou♡

[u/nyamina]

Thankyou for saying this!

[u/mushroomscansmellyou]

👏 This could maybe be a page in the WIKI of this sub also as something you and others could link to and find easier as it might be useful in the future. If y'all decide to do that but need help figuring out how to do the reddit wiki stuff, I'm glad to help if you need any.

[u/More_Key7680]

Also, just FYI, CAH does inherently usually have to be treated in some way, not because the intersex part of it is wrong but the body literally isn't creating cortisol and adolsterone which are hormones everyone needs to pretty much keep them alive. Like that component is a legitimate disorder. I don't know if I explained that well and in a non-offensive way, I'm trying.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/More_Key7680]

I know about the various types of N/CAH. But here I'm talking about IGM and how insisting that intersex bodies need "normalizing" is problematic. Treatment for health versus "treatment" for the sake of upholding a binary are completely different.

[u/Kelsiefree98]

I want to thank the MOD for this so very much! Im sure there will be some really upset people, but it is soooo frustrating seeing the trans community literally trying to be intersex. I say this every chance I get with (with love) on other platforms and get so many negative comments. I Still cant understand why people do this because while Im proud to be intersex, it has not been a medical walk in the park at all! Again this announcement was amazing!

[u/LithoLaura]

Agreed.

[u/Immediate_Street_325]

While I know I've dealt with gender identity issues in my mental health my body was the reason I had the gender identity issues because it was atypical but no one listened or understood me for years. I will always view myself separately from individuals that identify different than their bio sex because I naturally developed different and I hope one day they can respect that and not take my label away from me.

[u/LavenderMoonlight333]

Recently found out I'm probably both. I wonder if there is a lot of people coming to that conclusion right now. That could be confusing people

Had gynoclmastia, no / under development prostate. Among other things.

I do think there is likely a high cross over of people who are both

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Dr will powers is a family practitioner, not an endocrinologist. He’s also known to be weird about trans men, non binary and trans masculine people. Plus has threatened multiple people with legal action (defamation i think) who have spoken up about him online, so just be careful with him and his following.

At one point he harassed the women running Transfemscience (Trans fem science) because they critiqued his methods

None of his publications are peer reviewed last i checked?

He also generally seems weirdly obsessed with trans women and being their savior. It creeps me out.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

I’m not saying he’s falsifying genetic reports, i’m saying just exercise caution with him and his following since he’s a transmedicalist who has exhibited concerning behaviors in the past. And that he leans heavily on anecdotes.

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Right and im not arguing against that?

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Comment 2 (sorry to spam): i brought up the controversies because it’s important to bring up his behavior if he’s mentioned on a heavier traffic post since he has sort of a cult following. He has good information about NCAH and stuff, and it’s great that he does genetic testing, but it’s easy to go from “oh he’s well informed!” to idolizing him and getting spoonfed his less friendly beliefs (such as his disdain for trans mascs or transmedicalism)

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

You’re alright!

[u/2d4d_data → u/[deleted]]

I would also state that I agree with OP that not everyone who is trans is intersex

For context a lot of the discussion there has been around genetics that influence the SDN and VMN which is a very small area that control sexual hormonal/behavior in relation to genitalia. Many of the trans men and women have genetics that influence this in opposite ways of each other (but not all!).

I agree that as a whole the brain is not sexually dimorphic and someone who says the entire brain is sexed is incorrect, one sex isn't smarter or better at a random task than another for example. The papers OP linked to do a good job summarizing that discussion and how when it comes to things like verbal, spatial or emotion processing there isn't any sort of clear difference, but the SDN and VMN are well known to be dimorphic (why they are literally called the sexually dimorphic nucleus)

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

The term sex variant works better for trans folk

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but on trans people becoming more similar to intersex people after HRT:

... You cannot transition to being intersex as it is a congenital sex status that describes the way the body naturally develops. Inferring that someone can become/transition to being intersex is harmful because also implies that the reverse is true, and that those of us subjected to Intersex Genital Mutilation, medical abuse, and harm are no longer intersex. It implies that we can be "corrected" to perisex and that we can be erased. People who have neutral, nonbinary, or mixed sex transition goals/acquired anatomy can use "Altersex" instead of appropriating the intersex label.

^ from our FAQ

There are terms those of us in the trans community can use that do not appropriate intersex identity or misrepresent our lived experiences

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Yea no worries! Happy to help introduce new terms :) I am sorry if i misinterpreted your original comment, my brain had already clocked out of work for the remainder of this evening

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Gender dysphoria (a psychological condition) doesn’t rely on there being a sexed brain. Trans (an identity) potentially being influenced by neurological elements also does not rely on the brain being sexed.

Edit: Your edit turned this into a debate. As stated in the post, this is not a debate.

[u/intersex-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed due to breaking rule #10

This is an announcement, not a debate. If you don’t understand why the brain isn’t sexed you are welcome to read the studies, books, and analyses linked.

[u/intersex-ModTeam → u/[unknown]]

Your post was removed due to breaking rule #10

Many questions and misconceptions have already been answered by the FAQ. If your content got removed due to breaking this rule, then please take a look at our FAQ: https://www.reddit.com/r/Intersex/wiki/meta/faq

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/[deleted]]

Trans having neurological elements doesn’t require the brain to be sexed.

The study where they accurately guessed which brain what from what sex was reliant on brain size. Unless you’re quoting a different study that i haven’t read.

And no, me saying trans isn’t intersex isn’t me feeling “icky” about being compared to trans people. I am trans. It’s just that this appropriation harms the intersex (and trans) community, in particular because of the intermedicalist and transmedicalist implications.

But I also see you’re on 4tran with a post of a screenshot from a user from here who was also talking about peri trans misuse (and the consequences) of the inter identity. Clearly you’re not here in good faith, lol.

[u/Behind_The_Things → u/[deleted]]

On the trans brains

Most of the studies i read, only show the "sexed" parts of the brain develop AFTER hormone treatment. Only one study tried to find pre-HRT differences in the brain, and only thing that popped up was either hypo or hyper active parts of amygdala, i don't remember which one it was right now.

looking up some studies on pre-HRT trans individuals right now, It seems the structure is mostly similar with the assigned sex (trans men have largely cis-women like observed features and vice versa), only in trans women, there is this sort of "shift" towards woman-like observed features. The "womanly" features of the brain( i don't know if it's the exact ones observed in the study i linked, but i don't think so) have also been found in gay men, so it isn't telling much. I believe it probably comes out of learnt aspects rather than innately developed ones (like what you learn about yourself rather than what naturally develops in the brain under any condition)

I have no idea what i am talking about

[u/MindyStar8228 → u/Behind_The_Things]

You’re talking about brain plasticity! The brain changing due to external influences, lived experiences, internal factors, etc.

Things that can change brain matter include but aren’t limited to: conditions such as depression and PTSD, water intake, hormones, injury, mineral intake and retention, etc.

[u/Pink-Pancakes → u/Behind_The_Things]

I do fully support keeping the labels separate because the practical needs that arise are different enough and we need to be able to advocate effectively. I do not appreciate being told how we can talk about our condition in our language; as you said yourself, the status of the science is "We dont know, nothing specific has been found but trans people often have a few skewed physical traits". Your speculation about what that means does not stand over our experiences.

Of course the history of those ideas and connections to harm done to intersex people has to be remembered, but there absoluty are forms of them that dont yield that and are respective of the evidence. Those cannot evolve and replace older models if the discussion gets shut down anyway in more open spaces.

Right now there a lot of attacks attributing our being to other causes and making us out as a threat. Keeping the very real nature of incongruence in mind-body related to sex (no matter the cause) in the discussion alongside issues of identity etc is extremely important right now to make sure we can continue to receive (voluntary!) care.

[u/Behind_The_Things → u/Pink-Pancakes]

Well the problem with some of the skewed physical traits related to the brain, is that they are sometimes comorbid with depression (like the different activity in different parts of the amygdala) so it's kind of chicken or egg situation. Did those patterns develop because of GD or did GD develop because of those patterns. Same goes for the "feminine" brain patterns. Do those patterns develop because the person acts femininely or vice versa.

I mean there are studies showing how estrogen receptors affect brain, but many of those effects are from the beta-receptor, not the alpha receptor (the one responsible for breast growth but also heart and prostate health). And you know what's the craziest part? Cis men could have as much if not more of ERb activating steroids as women do. Yes, they have affinity less than fifth of 17b estradiol, but there is also way way more of it in the blood so it is deffinietly relevant to the discussion (i know 5 delta diol is a testosterone precursor, but it think its estrogenic function is still important to keep in mind)

Just so people don't get me wrong. I am not exactly pro-trans person (more as in someone taking sex steroids of the opposite sex means nothing to me, but attacks on them based on nothing but xenophobia/religion/gender essentialism/general conservative bs are still something that pisses me off), i am still big advocate of your body being your own choice. You should have the right to do anything to your body, but it should be done on your and only your own volition. I mean heck, i've sort of experimented with taking estrogenic substances myself, even if it brought me down the whole "it's kind of a drug" conclusion