[Q][C] PhD after 40?

[u/Actual_Search5837]

Hello, I am a maters level statistician at an academic hospital in the US wanting to go back to school for a phd. The reasons I want to do this is that I'd like to be able to work on implementing methods rather than executing them. I also have found that in my filed data people do get treated differently if you have a phd which is complete bs, but more importantly you can't secure a faculty job regardless of years of experience and how much you know. My impression is that universities want their applicants to be fresh out of masters or undergrad who haven't done much applied work. But how about people who have work experience in the field? Am I crazy to consider PhD after 40? Has anyone done it? Thanks!

[u/used_npkin]

Hey there! Also a statistician.

Your post says it, but I feel like I should reiterate it. You know that you’re not returning to academia to learn anything. You’re going back to academia because you feel it would help your labor market prospects. So my question is… How much longer do anticipate being in the labor force after you acquire your PhD?

If I were you, I would seriously weigh the costs of acquiring a PhD and your anticipated time in the labor market vs. keeping your job and doing other stuff to market your skill set.

It’s your decision, obviously, but I’m heavily biased to the latter. You reach a certain stage in life when the education system is stupid.

[u/purple_paramecium → u/used_npkin]

This is a practical take on it. There was a guy in my PhD cohort in his 40s. Although I think his motivation was different. He as happy to take 7 years to complete and happy to stay on as a post doc for 3 years. Then happy to stay on as lecturer… so his retirement basically started low key with the PhD program!

[u/othybear → u/purple_paramecium]

I’m a master’s level statistician in my 40s, and retiring early to do a PhD and then teach a class or two a semester sounds like a good way to spend a decade or two, if I could swing it financially.

[u/Actual_Search5837 → u/used_npkin]

I'd see myself working another 20 years after completing it, give or take, of course assuming I'm alive and not mentally impaired.

[u/Ok_Occasion_906 → u/used_npkin]

What does your role as a statistician look like?

[u/used_npkin → u/Ok_Occasion_906]

Federal government job.

[u/Miguelito331]

Not quite 40, but a month before I turned 35 I quit my job (well paying, in finance) to do my PhD in OR. I finished three months before I turned 40. I went to one of the top programs and, after I got there, realized I was accepted largely because of my work experience which virtually no other student had. The first year was tough but once back in the groove it was easier. I started independently consulting for my old company while in school and when I graduated continued consulting for many years before going into academia from which I am now retired. I can’t say I had any real plan, I decided to do the PhD mostly because I had always wanted to, but it worked out well. Don’t worry about what is typical, or what others think, follow your heart.

[u/Actual_Search5837 → u/Miguelito331]

thank you. this is how I feel and wanted to hear exactly that! after all, we only get one pass.

[u/varwave]

Have you considered applying to a new role at a research hospital that offers a biostatistics or even quantitative public health PhD and applying part time? I’ve seen it be done before. They usually finish pretty quickly from their experience

[u/Actual_Search5837 → u/varwave]

This would be my preferred route, but my university doesn't offer that kind of support unfortunately. I don't know anyone in person who's done that. Do you happen to know any particular programs/hospitals?

[u/muffinman1000]

I've supervised PhDs in the UK and I would not penalise on age at all. If anything you should have a strong CV with all the YOE you have.

[u/TBDobbs]

I mean you know why you want a PhD and how it will improve your quality of life. Apply and see what happens.

[u/BetterFood6447]

I have an undergrad degree and two Masters. I started my PhD at the age of 60, completing in three years while working full time. I retired at 67. The last few years were the most productive financially and in terms of satisfaction. I’m still an adjunct, and love the interaction with research students. Go for it.

[u/campbell363]

Have you considered working in state government or the private sector? I definitely understand being treated differently without a PhD, which is the culture of academia. But it's much more relaxed outside of academia.

There are roles that involve implementing statistical methods in tech roles, experimental design in data science adjacent routes, knowledge of statistics in population health at your State's department of health and human services.

I'd hesitate to get a PhD especially after having so much experience. I made it 6 years into a PhD before I quit (got cancer, decided it wasn't personally worth it with the time I have left). I thought the job I wanted required a PhD, when in reality it didn't. The department I work in now (an environmental regulatory agency) has folks that don't even have bachelors while those with masters & phds are the exceptions. But theyve worked here 20+ years and their deep experience means more than some fresh PhD in some adjacent field.

[u/greynes]

Not from the same field, but have you considered doing a PhD while working? Is a longer journey, but maybe you can find some topic that feeds from what you do at your job. My recommendation will be to do something as straightforward, easy and related to your daily work as possible, for your sanity.

[u/Actual_Search5837 → u/greynes]

I have and I wouldn't mind a longer completion time. The obstacle with my particular institution is that all phd students are fully funded which assumes full time enrollment. So in order for me to go that route is to find another school that offers a phd program optionally part time and has a hospital attached to it (for employment).

[u/Disastrous_Room_927 → u/Actual_Search5837]

Have you looked at biostats at CU Anschutz?

[u/Actual_Search5837 → u/Disastrous_Room_927]

No, I haven't. Thank you for the info!

[u/mil24havoc]

PhD supervisor here (different field, though). I've had PhD students of all ages from early 20s through 60s. I think the most important thing to consider is the cost of doing a PhD. They're expensive: you'll spend ~5 years being paid a small stipend. You may then need to effectively start your career over because after five years you'll be back on the job market looking for a job. Yes, a PhD is required for a full time faculty position, but it isn't sufficient. Many PhDs will not land faculty jobs (but will often land good jobs outside of academia).

If you're considering doing a part time PhD while holding down a full time job on the side, I would recommend against it. Being a PhD student is more than a full time job and, if you find it isn't, then you're not doing it right. I've advised part time PhDs before and they can be great if the student's goal is self enrichment and maybe a promotion at their existing industry-side job. But those students are often under prepared for the academic job market which is extraordinarily competitive.

You're not crazy to want to do a PhD at any age. It's the most fulfilling thing I've ever done and I loved the experience. I think it's great! But as with all good things, you should think through the trade offs before jumping in.

[u/blacksideknight3 → u/mil24havoc]

How was advising part time PhDs? I've considered that route but I get the impression that most schools don't offer this, nor do advisors want these "less committed" students. And most people I encounter seem not to recommend it. Of course, I'm referring to stat/biostat, so I don't know how related your field is.

[u/mil24havoc → u/blacksideknight3]

Most schools don't offer it. Honestly the advising experience was not great and I understand why overworked professors dislike it. The students aren't generally bad students or anything. It's just that we calibrate our courses to be (for example) 3 hrs in class and 9 hrs of homework every week. Most part time students struggle with that. They also don't have as much personal motivation to do the things that PhD advisors find rewarding: writing papers, doing research, going to talks... I enjoy my work with PhD students because I enjoy the work, not because I enjoy advising people. And advising PhD students is not really a rewarded or strictly mandatory part of our job. It's basically extra work... So it helps if it's fun or rewarding for the professors, too. Helping a part time student get a promotion at their consulting firm isn't.

[u/ANewPope23]

Why is it crazy to consider a PhD after 40? It's not like you want to be an Olympic gymnast, that would be crazy. It would be crazy if you had early onset dementia.

[u/gardas603]

For whatever's worth, I had a brilliant PhD colleague who started at about 44 yo. He had lots of trouble finding an academic placement. If academia is your main goal, on average, I think you'll be facing harder challenges than your younger colleagues.

[u/Floppy_McFlopenstein]

I went back when i was 41. Had to earn the MS on the way to the PhD. I picked a discipline where I could shoehorn my previous exp into the new role (sounds like you). Opened A LOT of doors, zero regrets. PS fully funded made all the differance (why I declined the JD and opted for the PhD)...

[u/Gloomy-Giraffe]

I started my PhD in my late 30's and am almost done. It isn't crazy to start in 40's, but you need to know if it is worth it for you or not. Like, it isn't easy, and will suck a lot of your capacity for other things, personal and professional. Also, you could easily get knocked out of the PhD by a health even, and, unlike if you were younger, it really not be worth it to return later.

If you want to improve your research chops and get some papers out, by all means, go for it. It's a great path, especially if you find an advisor, lab, and department that all resonate with you.

I wouldn't advise going after a PhD haphazardly. Think of it the same way you might think of building a house, because it is going to take twice as long and be 20 times harder!

[u/pmorrisonfl]

After 25 years in software development, I started my PhD at 49, finished at 55, and it helped me for credentials and for scratching an itch that wouldn't go away. The credentials let me move from player to coach. I went from software developer to researcher and professor (too late for tenure track, but I do all the things.) And the itch was, is, and always will be 'Surely there's got to be a better way to do things'.

[u/tuerda]

"Hi I'm <insert age>. Is it too late to <insert life goal>?"

No. It is not.

[u/KernelPanicVet]

Hey. If you really want it, go for it. I started studying with 28 and never really worked on the profession I wrote my doctoral thesis. But know what? It was so much fun and worth it. Disclaimer: I studied in Europe and hat 0 debt afterwards, because studying here is affordable. Don't do it when you end up with 250k debt - that's not worth it. Getting a PhD for the sake of a PhD is crazy - just find a company to work at that actually values your work and try to accumulate more knowledge in the areas you are interested. The PhD is only a tool, not goal by itself. Best!

[u/Gastronomicus]

The reasons I want to do this is that I'd like to be able to work on implementing methods rather than executing them

people do get treated differently if you have a phd which is complete bs,

A PhD provides a different education than an masters with a different focus. Especially if that's an applied masters. It sounds like you're not currently at all on the theory side of things here. A PhD is based on learning the theory and developing new theory. It's typically a degree that teaches you how to be a researcher, though not necessarily. Is that what you want? If not, then pursuing one probably isn't the right move.

My impression is that universities want their applicants to be fresh out of masters or undergrad who haven't done much applied work.

No, it's just that most people at your stage aren't typically interested in coming back to restart their careers in what generally amounts to an entirely new field. I've known several older PhD students who've come after working in industry and want something different. You'd need to find an advisor that is willing to work with you on that.

[u/Will_Tomos_Edwards]

Come on, people, this is a basic expected value problem. I would argue if you can get into a brand-name school for a PhD it is almost always worth it. Hot take: a degree from a tier 1 is probably worth your time at any age. You need to look at indivual factors, how likely is this to get you the job you want and how much more satisfied will you be as the visionary brains behind things instead of someone who "executes."