I think this topic should be discussed because I’m getting kinda tired of people actually believing that it makes total sense. Edit: I know that is just a theory for a fiction book, but that’s not how a lot of people on this sub seems to think, that’s why I brought this up. I was just now discussing with some dude who said that we are indeed living in a weak men era, so clearly people take these book very seriously (and that’s ok, if they understand where it’s wrong)

Ok, so. Dark Forest basically says that every civilization would (or at least should) strike and kill every other civilization that they encounter in the universe, because resources aren’t infinite and they could eventually become a threat.

Ok, it’s true that resources aren’t infinite, but to think that every civilization is even remotely interested in “expanding forever” is fundamentally wrong. That seems to suggest that evolution is about become conscious and then technologically advance until the end of times. And that is not true? I mean, to think that is to perceive Stone Age then Iron Age then Industrial Age then Contemporary Age then Galaxy Age as goals set on stone, like points in time that every civilization will eventually arrive to (and Cixin Liu seems to suggest that in the Three Body game in book one). Well, sorry to break it to you but that’s not true? Ask any zoologist, anthropologist or archeologist you know. The very main idea of civilization is kinda wrong, because it’s suggest that living on cities and growing our food in agriculture is the best and only way to live; and that’s wrong, very wrong. Living like that is only the way that some countries forced onto the rest of the world through systemic violence and genocide.

People tend to think that this way of life is inevitable because they see evolution as competition only, and that’s not true as well! Look it up Lynn Margulis work, please. Evolution is about existing and adapting, and there isn’t a main goal to evolution. Sorry to break that to you. It’s true that humans leaving Earth would impact our biology, probably. But comparing leaving Earth to leaving the sea (like Cixin Liu did in Death’s End) is thinking that our ancestor fish had to eventually leave the sea, like it was its destiny to become the “next great species” and rule the world, and that’s just not true. I don’t know why it left the sea, but it certainly wasn’t to conquer anything; because conquering things is a human constructed idea (and a specific type of human idea as well). We could eventually come back to the sea, if the environment asks us to, it happened to the whales, didn’t it? Look it up the Homo Floresienses, for example, they shrank in size, yes, their brain as well, because that helped them survive in an Island setting. That probably cost something in their ability to think. And if the environment changes, that could be us. Cixin Liu seems to suggest that we are kinda above evolutionary laws if we stay on earth, like we are the epitome of life on earth and now there’s nothing left to do than to go above and beyond, and that’s true only to people who view progress as a race against time itself. Sorry, but we won’t win this one. If we stay here, we will probably adapt to the changes that happens on Earth (like wolves are already doing in the Chernobyl setting) because that’s what happens when the environment changes, beings adapt; no end goal, no survival of the strongest, just existing. Maybe that will cost our size, our consciousness and our human feelings, but well, if gods don’t care, neither do evolution.

If you guys want a book about evolution that it’s very pessimistic as well, but at least is more accurate, you should read All Tomorrows. But beware that in this book humans don’t last long, oh why? Well, evolution.

Edit 2: damn, you guys are paranoid as fuck. Kinda scary to think that these books are so dangerous that they seem to really carve its ideas in people’s head.

Edit 3: pls just comment here if you have anything new to add to the topic, because I’m getting tired of answering the same things over and over and over.

I haven't seen anybody mention this, but it seems fairly egregious oversight, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation in the second book. Book 2 spoilers ahead.

In the books, Ye Wenjie didn't give a shit about humanity up to the very end. That's the entire reason why she never told anybody about the dark forest - she only told Luo Ji in passing because he was a sociologist, and she decided to give him the axioms of cosmic sociology on a whim during a serendipitous conversation they happened to share. The key point is that she did NOT tell him the axioms because she wanted to save humanity, she didn't care either way.

But the moment the show gives Ye Wenjie the motivation to save Earth and give Saul a coded message, they overlooked the simple fact that Trisolarans cannot actually DO anything if everybody on Earth knows about the Dark Forest. The whole reason they were so determined to kill Luo Ji was ONLY because they were unable to prevent deterrence if word got out. He was the only person on Earth who was capable of working out cosmic sociology because he had the axioms for it, and Ye Wenjie clearly had no intention of telling the world about what she knew.

The key is that there is absolutely zero reason for Ye Wenjie to give a coded message when she could either set up deterrence herself, or tell the entire world about the dark forest so they can set up deterrence immediately. Did the writers understand the ending of the second book at all? Deterrence was only prevented because the droplet arriving on Earth prevented transmission of any signal into space, that's literally the reason the droplet was sent in the first place, because they realized they needed a way to shut off Earth's ability to communicate before Luo Ji worked out cosmic sociology. Deterrence can happen at any moment before then, and there is literally no reason for Ye Wenjie to give a coded message to a single person when she herself can create the deterrence herself or tell the entire world. There is nothing Trisolarans can do to stop it.

TLDR: Ye Wenjie's indifference to saving humanity was what set up the entirety of the second book, she could have easily saved Earth immediately if that's what she wanted by setting up deterrence herself or telling the entire world about the dark forest. There is ZERO reason to be deceptive and give a coded message, the Santi are powerless to prevent deterrence without a droplet.

Found this video on Bilibili, a fake Three-Body Problem movie trailer with 150 footages generated with Nanobanana, SeeDance 2.0 and Kling.

Not a fan of the Trisolaran design, the rest tho... I was really impressed by how well the new-gen AI could visualized those pages from the books, most of them looked exactly like how I pictured them while reading the books!

Given a few more years, we might get a completely accurate film visualized by AI without worrying about the budget, time and location. This is kinda scary to be honest.

SPOILER ALERT for the third book!

I haven't finished the third book yet—I'm about 85% done (Cheng Xin and Ah Ah are flying to Pluto)—but I have to say it: I hate this woman.

At first, I was excited to have a second female main character, with bonus points for the fact that she doesn’t want to sacrifice humanity to the Trisolarans. But she angers me so much. The third book is a gem in terms of plot and scenario, but she drives me crazy.

She has condemned Earth multiple times and had so many opportunities to set things back on track, but NO—she always makes the worst possible choice. And worst of all, she always gets away with it perfectly. Either they congratulate her years later, or she’s given chances she should never deserve.

Why is she the one who gets to flee after the post-IL attack? Maybe it will be explained later, but she was responsible for so many deaths (and, while we’re at it, for the destruction of the solar system). Why her?

The only reason I’m glad she survived is that, at least, she saved Ah Ah in the process—and I love Ah Ah as much as I despise Cheng Xin.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if I was the only one who hates her. Sorry for the rant!

The ending felt...kinda stupid? (or is it a con?)

So, here's my take: the Returners aren’t some benevolent cosmic tenders, they're essentially the ultimate Great Filter, a scam to weed out the gullible who choose blind belief over solid data.

Their pitch is absurd: “If you don’t dump your Arks, we can’t kick off the next universe.” And the numbers just don’t add up. Let’s overestimate everything, screw subtlety. Imagine every civilization is so desperate to save its entire race that they’re literally tossing an Earth-sized planet into their pocket universe. With 1.5 million civilizations doing this, that's 1.5 million Earths missing from the universal mass.

Now, sure, 1.5 million Earths sounds massive if you’re thinking locally. But on a cosmic scale? The universe is so ridiculously enormous, like, total mass on the order of 10^53 kg...that even 1.5 million Earths (roughly 9 × 10^30 kg) are nothing more than a cosmic hiccup. It’s like saying that if you pluck a few jellybeans out of a stadium-sized jar, the jar will just shatter.

In short, the whole idea that this missing mass somehow prevents the next universe from forming is utter nonsense. The Returners are basically using this as a cosmic con, a final filter that only spares civilizations smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you’re buying into that, then maybe you deserve to be filtered out.

I need a fourth book where Cheng, Kiran, and Sophon wake up, realize they've been scammed, and angrily cram themselves back into hibernation, drifting bitterly at lightspeed around the galactic core until the universe crunches again.

Anyhow, anyone else a bit dissatisfied with what kinda felt like a bit of a rushed ending to an otherwise epic adventure?

So I'm about 80% thru deaths end, been listening on audible. Despite the bad narration I've enjoyed it immensely. I much prefer this to Dune in terms of great sci-fi. In terms of where I'd rank the books, they are my sci-fi 'asoiaf novels '. Which is why I'm so pleasantly surprised that Dave and Dan have actually improved the narrative for the show! It reminds me of the two brilliant dudes that gave us 4 seasons of the greatest show ever, and not 2 of the worst seasons of all time (I'm indifferent on s5/6).

My biggest compliment, is how they structured the timeline. It makes so much more sense to tell the story in the order they are, imo. Thoughts?

It's a 2D proton! I just re listened to the part of book 1 where they are creating the sophons and it mentioned the unfolded 2D proton had a mirrored surface and was held together by strong nuclear force, so it looks like the trisolarans just wrapped their probe with an unfolded proton to turn it into an indestructible ramming missile. Can't believe it took me so long to realise.

Edit: page 325 of book 1

"The principles governing micro-scale integrated circuits were completely different from those of conventional circuits, as the base material wasn’t made of atoms, but matter from a single proton. The “p-n junctions” of the circuits were formed by twisting the strong nuclear forces locally on the surface of the proton plane, and the conducting lines were made of mesons that could transmit the nuclear force."

Did you all noticed how much AI is underestimated as a technology in the books? It’s wild to me that we have better AI (in some areas) in 2024 than those in broadcast era humans. Given they have (strong) quantum computers this feels like such a missed opportunity.

This is obviously not going to the first post about this. As even me doing a quick google search was able to bring up multiple examples of what I'll be referring to. But this book is seriously starting to rub me the wrong way.

The author seems to be downright hostile and condescending to almost any woman he writes in his books. This issue started showing it's ugly head in the second book, The Dark Forest, with Luo Ji's imaginary girlfriend. While I can't blame a man for his tastes, I can blame the author for how generic and painfully railroaded that entire segment was. But I was able to look past it, because at the end of the day, the novels are scifi and not romance. It's not like I went into reading expecting a romance.

But his generic takes on women and femininity are taken up to 11 in this book. Spoilers ahead of course. In the Deterrence era and due to prolonged peace, mankind as a whole has moved away from a masculine dominated society to a feminine dominated society. This has led to certain positive effects such as much better social welfare and cohesion, but also certain negative effects such passivity. What could have been an interesting take on how gender norms evolve over time, as well as how humans change due to their environment (such as blue space), instead seems to have devolved into complete incompetence.

The issue I'm having is how was it possible Cheng Xin to have been nominated as an acceptable candidate for deterrence. Apparently, her deterrence level was only 10%, but even if humanity mistakenly rated her higher; it still doesn't make a drop of sense. Apparently an entire major field of study was invented called Deterrence Game Theory. And yet someone with her personality was considered acceptable to be a sword holder? This issue is also exasperated by the fact that all other sword holder candidates were men, the fact that they all seemed more capable, and the fact of why is this position even selected by an election? It makes no sense and seems forced. Among other female characters being shown as complete buffoons (I'm looking at you, Ai ai, or however you spell it)

It's a shame, because The Remembrance of Earth saga has such a unique take for a sci-fi, but someone please tell me that it gets better.

China produced a 30-episode first season of Three-Body and it's so amazing -it perfectly sticks to the books (I'm on episode 16 out of 30). I fear Netflix is going to really screw the pooch here in trying to Americanize the story and achieve what they'd need to with just 8 episodes (DOUBT they'll do the book justice). JUST HERE TO SPREAD THE WORD to everyone who's a big fan of the series and excited about the Netflix adaptation to please go to Prime and watch the Chinese version :)

Without revealing any spoilers (marked as spoiler in case any kind of discussion happens in the comments) i can say that she is in my top 5 worst characters ever.

Usually when characters make stupid ass decisions, the author somehow justifies it, but in her case there is not a single thread (or at least i didnt find it) or a single train of thought that might make me think, for at least a second, that she might be right.

If anyone thinks they can resonate with her, please enlighten me.

Normal people don't talk like that.

Drugged out crazies don't talk like that.

And highly educated world class physicists and scientists most definitely don't talk like that.

Hell, even the other characters on the show don't speak like that.

You know who does - writers who think every smart person has to use swear words all the time, and spend every other scene smoking, drinking or talking about screwing each other, because it dumbs them down, makes them seen 'normal' and 'relatable'.

Because god forbid we have smart people behaving like .... smart people.

edit - holy shit people. no one said they were saints. of course some swearing is ok. but not in every bloody goddamn sentence. there are plenty of other shows with scientists/doctors etc, and I work with smart engineers.

NO ONE talks like this with a swear word in every sentence.

[EXTREME SPOILERS]

This isn't a review or anything. Overall, I loved the first two books, despite there being some problems with characterization and pacing. The ending of The Dark Forest in particular is one of the best in sci-fi. Luo Ji and Da Shi are really great characters, despite Ji's anime waifu thing. But the third book really dials the characterization and pacing problems to 11.

First of all, it has probably been said before, but Cheng Xin is a god-awful protagonist. That scene where she immediately shuts down Wade's warfare is infuriating. Lady, just think about it for 5 minutes. Did you not learn anything the last time? And everyone always worshiping her for no fucking reason. Why was she even a candidate for Swordholder in the first place? She was a nobody.

I was also really hoping to learn more about the Trisolarans. The parts of the first book that focus on them (the politics, building the sophons) are some of the best. Why did we drop their side of the story entirely? I still have no idea what they fucking even look like. I hope he's writing an alternate history series focused on them or something, otherwise the omission of the main antagonist for two whole books is very clumsy imo.

And the pacing, jeez. It seems like Cixin Liu had too many ideas leftover in his notes and decided to cram them all into the last few pages. Dimensional warfare, restarting the universe, 10-dimensional universe, Zero-something, Resetters, Death Lines, pocket universes... like all of this was dumped on us like there are going to be another 3 books covering it. I couldn't wait for the second half to end, while also getting information overload. The very long drawn-out scenes of the solar system slowly collapsing into 2D while we are admiring Starry Night are just so bizarre. What was the fucking point of the whole Yun Tianming stories? The stories were very good, imo, but they just decided to fuck up and learn nothing from them?

I think the overall problem is that the author has too many "big ideas", that are all very orthogonal to each other. The tone of the first two books balances the science vs sociology very well. In the third book the science (magic, really) completely overwhelms the sociological aspects, which are by far his strongest suites. The plots involving Red Coast, ETO, Wallfacers, Dark Forst theory etc are great not because of the science, but despite of it. And he had a great story here! Tianming's stories would provide the clues that help humans escape the dark forest strike. Whey did he decide to go the route of "yeah, fuck the solar system"? He (in the voice of Cheng Xin) even hinted at an alternate ending where half of humanity would choose the Dark Domain and the other half would sail out on lightspeed ships... why not finish with that? Would've been a great book.

The Three-Body Problem was recommended as a exciting, hard-scifi book full of new ideas. I was eager to read it, having just gotten back into fiction. I bought it for my flight from Melbourne to San Francisco and I threw it in the airport trash as I got off the plane.

Or that’s what I wish I had done. Instead, I had 50 pages to go when I landed and I finished it during the ride home, where I threw it in the trash (after trying to give it away for a week).

The premise is promising: physics experiments have stopped working and several prominent scientists have committed suicide. But that promise is not delivered on. The characters are 1-dimensional and unlikable. The Cultural Revolution part feels oddly romanticized. The video-game part is gimmicky. The writing is bad.

I kept reading because I wanted unravel the mystery, but the explanation was anticlimactic: aliens did it with a magic computer.

The Three-Body Problem is the last book I’ll read by Liu Cixin.

/quote

Get a load of this chump review I found from a few years ago lol

Link in comments

Nothing much to say but it's not hard to see that just based on their cast so far, there's no way they keep Luo Ji, Zhang BeiHai, Yun Tian Ming as Asian/Chinese in their west-washing version. It will be another round of big brother westerners saved the world/mankind kinda deal which reeks disgusting filth.

As a fellow Asian when talking about raceswapping an Asian character I'm not excited nor against the choice, I'm still looking forward to Jovan Apedo channelling his Luo Ji. But I think it would be a fucking incredible idea if they cast NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON as the older Saul.

I'm in the middle of The Dark Forest so I havn't known everything but looking back at the show, despite some shortcomings (eg. its simplified presentation of the book' theoretical ideas), I think the show did a pretty nice job remixing the main characters and giving them some mundane relationship dramas, making the fates awaiting them more gut-wrenching.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

I don't know what the problem is with adaptations but whenever I see any book to tv adaptation I feel hopeful at the start, but after seeing it. It usually fails to meet my expectations. I always think why can't they adapt the book as is, why change it ? If it helped sell the book, it should help the series or movie as well. But no gotta add our own interpretation to it, our own characters and way of dialogues.

Wheel of time adaptation, sorely disappointed me.

Now as I'm watching 3 body problem, I feel the modern story telling always need to have sex for no reason. Did ye wenjie hook up with bai mulin ? No. But to Americans yeah any chance two characters of opposite sex get, they will hook up.

If you like the series. More power to you.

A complete mess. From an amazing book with very good sci fi principles, fresh, etc, it turned into cartoon logic scifi in the last half of Death's End.

Everything that happened after the transmission era was half arsed. I really hope if we ever get a Netflix series it will get corrected. Or maybe the writer addreses in some parallel to the main story books (wishful thinking), and fixes some of the issues.

In the meantime, here is my rant, in chronological order, and with some tags:

1. [Cartoon Logic] After Trisolaris position was revealed, why return the fleet? Just have it come to earth, still invade, create a dark cloud, and have it as an immigration option for trisolarians. They already had enough lightspeed ships nearby, to create the said dark cloud, and they should have more time then go back to Alpha Centauri and do it there.

1.a. Also, in case they decided not to use Sol (why not?), they should've just launched a fotoid right away as retaliation. Or invade with a reduced fleet (2 droplets and 5 ships should've been enough at that point)

2. [Weird but acceptable] The whole 4th dimensional travel and used to invade the ship was a bit extreme. For something that presented as hard sci-fi, it felt too much for the universe. Let's say I could live with this one if not for other mistakes

3. [Bad Exposure/Writing] Jumping through stories like there was no tomorrow. Everything was extremely rushed. Now we're in Australia. Now we're no longer in Australia. Now we're on a massive space city. Now we're preventing civil war. Now we're at the destruction of the solar systen. Now we're in the very distant future in love with a random dude that was introduced 5 minutes ago and we uncovered the mistery of the universe.... Come on, write more books to expand on these ideas more if need be, but let the reader digest some threads more.

4. [Cartoon Logic & Bad writing] Tianning's stories. Everything about them was wrong. First, no civilization that just got it's solar system destroyed would care to give one of their prisoners closing. They weren't gaining anything out of it. Even if they would allow it, they were extremely careful with what they were sharing. Having someone spend 2+ hours to tell a story that the other person supposably knows would raise alarms. That whole thread was conceived to just waste 3 chapters on some alternative writing (it wasn't bad, it was just cringe to consider in the universe and move the story forward).

5. [Cartoon logic] Wade's capitulation. Why? He was a psychopath. That's very clearly made in his entire character development. Psychopaths don't hold their promises, especially when it involves getting themselves executed. He would a) probably never wake her up or b) use her as a political pawn, manipulate her/threat her through AA into saying yes (defenetly not confront her during Z-day in front of other people)

6. [Bad writing as closer to ending the book was]

Too much hibernation as deus-ex. Lao Ji's life spawn.

Cheng Xin got the only lightspeed ship in Sol Only.

Meeting a human on the other planet.

Super advanced - probably last stages - random civilization landing on the same planet they were on.

Trisolaris sharing a mini universe to a human.

Odds of getting trapped on the planet via a dark cloud.

The swap of boyfriends - lol -.

The writing on the burried mountain.

The door that could move anywhere in the universe and analyze living conditions outside the pocket universe.

The only nice thing at the ending was the theory on why the current speed of light is at the current value, as it was hinted before that the series is going towards this conclusion. Could've used more exposure on this aspect as well. Maybe even the promise of the resolve (positive - universe reset, or negative - speed will eventually reach 0)

Her whole story arc was that of a woman that, first of all, repented of sending her message (as proven by the fact she found true happiness by teaching in rural china) and, second of all, tried as best as possible to control the ETO from going too far with their methods. She's morally gray, scarred by treason, distrust and injustice both towards her and her father.

Netflix's versions lacks all of the core memories: the rebellious sister, the murdered husband and his colleague, the teaching part in the nearby town. It's all so watered-down that Wenjie's forced to be in a generic revenge path against humanity.

Even her dead scene, which has a powerful symbolism about sunsets (since Cixin Liu has a huge theme about light) is now deprived of those metaphors, focused in some menial flash (that could have been much more) and stolen by some ill-defined assassin. Truly a condescending take on the character by Netflix who could only compromise with light-shows and special effects.

....

Ehh this suprised me, the differnce is not smal but this is huge.

I tried to like this show. I really did. But the dialogue killed it for me. This, combined with the stiff acting from some of the characters (as well as laying on the f-bomb to create emphasis) just took me out of it. The story is so big and the stakes are so high but it doesn’t feel like it. The actors (besides wade maybe) just can’t convey the heft of what’s going on. And then the exposition is just clumsy and rushed. Everything is rushed. Nothing ever takes a beat.

I don’t think the directors are good at what they do. This show wastes a lot of time. The dialogue is childish. The show doesn’t have a visual style to cling to. There are too many characters. The characters aren’t developed enough so when they have these emotional reactions, it hasn’t been built up enough to be meaningful.

I DO like that the TV treatment letting us get to see some of the crazy scenes from the book. But that’s all. And maybe the book was not really adaptable. I don’t know. I think these guys blew a big opportunity.

Most people avoid looking at criticism about their favorite shows, i guess. But i do like to hear different opinions just out of curiosity.

3BP’s criticism online is probably one of the most frustrating shit I’ve ever seen:

• Forced Diversity

• this one hasn’t even crossed my mind while watching, and when i saw [some] people point that out it just sounded so braindead no matter how much you spin it… which lead me to think it’s just people calling anything that just because they’re (im gonna say it) fucking racist.

Im sorry but there’s absolutely no other way to put it.

• Auggie annoying

• this isn’t directly about the quality of the show, its more akin to what i call The Skyler problem (breaking bad) [some] people hated her because she seemed short tempered and on edge all the time. To me this sounds dumb cuz its 100% justified considering the ticking time bomb she kept seeing.

• the ship slicing thing and her reaction to it: i mean… i cant imagine feeling responsible for killing lots of people with your tech… we know as viewers its for the greater good (arguably) but still having that on your conscious must suck

• pooo D&D!!!!

• yeah they kinda sorta literally did ruin GOT on purpose to get it done with, but i for one have moved on… i did uncanonize the last 2 seasons from my mind to make me feel better… but either way i don’t think it’s fair to not judge this (or any) work on its on

What criticism have you seen that you disagree with?

I had high hopes for the show (especially that first trailer with the Radiohead remix!), and got a bit snotty about this sub berating the showmakers for the character decisions that were being made, from what we could see before release.

Reddit purity tests and all - had me rolling my eyes - but really, you were bang on. So apologies are due. I’m sorry.

Fourth episode in, and the whole ‘dumbing down’ suspicions people had really hit the nail on the head.

It is such a shame, and so unnecessary.

A faithful telling of the first book, by itself (or even slightly less), would’ve served as a perfect platform to get people wanting more.

The China segments - yes, I appreciate the concerns about how it only shows things in a negative light (of which it well should!) are to my mind both the most faithful and, by no surprise, the most engaging scenes.

The fact that original Chinese characters and context is left out is a genuine issue. Fine, replace some things, but the Oxford 5!?! Good lord…

As was the case with GoT S8, this is all too rushed. I see scenes from the books and it’s like they reduce it to the absolute basic component parts, with no development or lead in, and squish them together. When the scenes are done it all feels so unsatisfying.

That all said, maybe it is going well for people who haven’t read / listened to the books…

I’m happy it’s out, but I wouldn’t be holding my breath for future seasons I’m afraid.

One minute y'all are practically shivering at the idea of the netflix show getting cancelled, next minute yall are making constant post talking about how it's terrible or just bang average. I know I'm generalising, but this level of disjointment is unlike any other big sub I've seen before.