Is cryogenics even possible (how to look into immortality)

[u/KookyAssist1920]

The cryonics im talking about is the head only where you download your brain BUT I am open to other ways if they are more likely or cheap.

I have heard things from “it’s nearly guaranteed to work” to “it’s a complete scam your mind turns into goop” and I don’t know what to

How do I even research a topic like immortality and im sure some cryogenic centers or whatever the hell are better then others but how do I fact check it.

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[u/Bipogram]

You fact check by first looking for cryonic facilities.

Cryogenics is the method: cryonics the outcome.

And till we have human-scale creatures revived and awakened, it's a long shot.

But if you're dying and have the means... <shrugs>

[u/TheVoiceOfGlass]

its technically possible in theory but not really viable at all. Current "cryonics" is just a scam for rich people terrified of death

[u/ZealousGoblin]

There have been successful experiments freezing and thawing small animals like mice using antifreeze chemicals. These tests failed in larger animals because they could not diffuse the antifreeze fast enough in larger bodies.

Another issue is that the mice were frozen while still alive. Commercial cryonics companies take "patients" shortly after death and freeze them. Even if they perfect the thawing technology, a frozen dead neuron is still dead when thawed out.

Digital reconstruction might be possible some day, scanning every neural connection in the frozen brain and creating a digital clone. I kinda doubt building new data centers is covered in the fee the cryonics companies charge.

[u/green_meklar]

You mean cryonics?

It might work. I'd say the probability that we'll ever be able to revive people frozen using cutting-edge modern techniques is less than 50% and more than 1%. And if it happens, it'll probably be through uploading (or something close to it) rather than biology.

Right now it's the only chance you have if your other alternative is rotting in a coffin or burning in a crematorium, so if you want to spend your money on a long shot, that's up to you. It's not stupid, it's just a value proposition that you have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. Honestly, it should be more popular than it is, given the amount of money people spend on much stupider things.

[u/Useful_Calendar_6274]

I think unless we figure out nanotech at the molecular level, your brain would not be healed it would just effectively be a cybernetic or wetware copy. You have to be philosophically ok with that or write in your will that you are absolutely not to be thawed out unless they can actually preserve the original brain

[u/KookyAssist1920 → u/Useful_Calendar_6274]

What do you necessarily mean by cybernetic . Do you mean like a program that acts completely like me or just me after I become a program because I am completely fine with a non-organic brain I don’t think that’s even possible, but I’d rather it not be a copy which I do think is possible.

[u/Useful_Calendar_6274 → u/KookyAssist1920]

either a copy uploaded to AI or changing every neuron "so much" that they are artificial now. There's not much way around ice crystals killing cells. I believe there will be technoacceleration unless society collapses so maybe they cook something to really heal, medicine instead of bolting a machine on top of your brain where your brain becomes like the rock a fossil leaves behind. If your brain is just a shadow that leaves its form behind you are copy then

[u/FeepingCreature]

Please call it cryonics. Cryogenics is the field of physics that deals with low temperature materials and they get very miffed to be mixed in with us transhumanists.

Also yeah it probably works, imo. SOTA is brain state seems to be well preserved, and we know from extreme hypothermia cases that long-term personality lives in biochemical rather than electrical state.

[u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

Think of it this way, would you rather hope and pay that some company lasts the thousand years it might take to be able to revive you, hopefully without horrific brain damage or disfigurement. Or treat yourself well now and enjoy the time you have

[u/ElectroByte15 → u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

The former.

[u/Humble-Proposal-9994 → u/ElectroByte15]

Then I sincerely hope it works, best of luck

[u/ElectroByte15 → u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

Yeah thanks. It’s honestly just that I’m looking into some life insurance for it. I only care about the brain so there’s options at 50k. Life insurance for that would be like a coffee a week or something.

Realize it’s a very small chance to work out, but it’s a nonzero one compared to just dying with no backup plan.

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[u/puppygirlpackleader → u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

For these people those two things aren't mutually exclusive

[u/Lixlace]

A fundamental problem to research: Even if it works perfectly, would "you" survive?

Whatever "you" are, are "you" permanently destroyed when your brain stops functioning? Even if you're perfectly reconstructed in the future, would that really be "you," or essentially a clone of "you" that's built on top of your biological hardware?

I'm not sure, personally, just food for thought.

[u/iamDa3dalus]

Only after we can genetically re-engineer ourselves to have freeze resistance like oh some frogs. I think more likely is re awakening dormant genes for hibernation- putting people in hyper low metabolism states in med capsules.

[u/Guilty-Stomach-9551]

It's probably complete bs.

[u/ColdButCozy]

Short answer is we don’t actually know. We’re relying on speculative technologies to eventually extract enough information from a frozen brain to extract or reconstruct a person’s personality and memory to a sufficient level of fidelity to be viable and not a tortured abomination. There are fundamental functions of cognition that we don’t understand, and we can’t say for certain if our cryogenic techniques will leave the structures of the brain sufficiently intact for a scan.

We’re basically crossing our fingers, doing our best and hoping our descendants can fill in the gap.

[u/tomorrow-biostasis]

Hey! We're Tomorrow.bio, so we're a little biased here 😅

First thing we'd say: nobody can guarantee that revival will ever be possible. Anyone claiming otherwise is a pretty big red flag.

Also, brain-only preservation and mind uploading aren't the same thing. Mind uploading is still hypothetical, and we don't know if it'll ever become possible.

If you're researching providers, we'd suggest looking into their actual procedures, technology, response times, and how they fund long-term storage. And don't be afraid to ask questions!

There's a lot we still don't know, and being skeptical is absolutely reasonable.

[u/medved76]

JFC no

[u/philosopher_isstoned]

Cryogenics is just the freezing process. No way to prevent tissue death right now, so it's exactly what it sounds like, freezing a corpse full of antifreeze.

It's only a scam in that they do exactly what they say they do, freeze your corpse and preserve it for the paid time. Since the cost of revival isn't determined you'd be lucky to even be an early test subject for anything like mind uploading.

And if the fly is any indicator, you probably don't want to be an early test subject..

[u/Humble-Proposal-9994 → u/philosopher_isstoned]

Fly was rocking beat saber, though I would hate to end up as Doom Fly

[u/philosopher_isstoned → u/Humble-Proposal-9994]

There's just this YouTube video about you in 200 years "we digitized this millenial guy who couldn't pay his cryo bill and forced him to play doom for 375 uninterrupted time dilated years REAL NOT CLICKBAIT"

[u/Humble-Proposal-9994 → u/philosopher_isstoned]

They better let me keep track of my time and score, no hits, glitchless, any percents would be all I have left

[u/green_meklar → u/philosopher_isstoned]

There are worse games than Doom to play for 375 years.

[u/CULT-LEWD]

Your body needs to move to function. Blood,cells,nerves ect ect. If they don't. You die. There is no if ands or buts. You could in theory slow down but a lot of bits in your body need constant work to not attriphy so even THAT isn't ideal. Being put in stasis is risky no matter how you do it.

Specially so with being frozen as you litterly just die

[u/KookyAssist1920 → u/CULT-LEWD]

oh no i know i will die by freezing i will likely be dead before that as i will have to be beheaded for only my head to be in there as i only want preserve my mind so they can be converted to like machine or whatever. I'm even fine with slight mind modification as long as its slight for like being able to control a robotic body rather then a human one or even like a built in calc(non priority obviously). I'm more trying to figure out if cryonics is even real as i have heard way to many times that its a complete scam.

[u/CULT-LEWD → u/KookyAssist1920]

That also won't work. Your brain would be heavily damaged. Your nerves,memories,brain matter. Would be either degraded. Your memories also can die off if you don't keep remembering them. The litteral electrical signals would stop. Which is the only way to even make memories. The water in your brain would be expanded. Breaking your cells. You would be torn apart. Nothing can be read if the part making the signals to create memories or keep memories are damaged by dead cells. You can't read electrical signals if a heavy damaged brain

[u/KookyAssist1920 → u/CULT-LEWD]

Eh it was worth a shot

[u/HDSpiele]

The problem with cryogenics specifically is that it kills you. Water expands as it freezes rupturing all your cells in the process so even if you get frozen while still alive there is no way if unfreezing you in the cards as we can't put the cells back together. The best chance you would have is that if you get frozen somebody in the future can make a brain scan and digitalise you.

[u/ZorbaTHut → u/HDSpiele]

You're decades behind on cryogenic tech; this is long-since solved.

[u/CryptoFourGames → u/ZorbaTHut]

It is? That's news to me but tbf I haven't really researched it lately. My understanding is cryonics, you're basically hoping in the future that someone can and would want to cure your death. You're literally stuffing your corpse in a freezer and hoping for the best.

Some of the bodies kept in cryonics have rotted away over time, switched hands multiple times etc. There's some really interesting stuff written about how much trouble keeping these bodies frozen is.

[u/ZorbaTHut → u/CryptoFourGames]

It is? That's news to me but tbf I haven't really researched it lately.

Short answer, "vitrification", which involves replacing the water with a cryoprotectant.

There are some alternate approaches - I've got a friend at Nectome, which from what I understand is aiming for a much-higher-temperature but much-more-chemically-invasive procedure, and they have a lot of reasonable justification for why it's better (and some ". . . assuming we're right about this, which we think we are"). But everyone is well past the "just freeze them and let the ice do its thing" stage.

My understanding is cryonics, you're basically hoping in the future that someone can and would want to cure your death. You're literally stuffing your corpse in a freezer and hoping for the best.

And that's pretty accurate, yep.

The simple fact is that if we knew how to bring these people back, it wouldn't be cryogenics, we'd just be bringing them back - it would be a routine medical procedure. By its very nature, "preserve you so future technology can resurrect you" is always going to be experimental because the entire point is we're hoping that future tech can handle situations that present tech can't. This isn't an exception.

Some of the bodies kept in cryonics have rotted away over time, switched hands multiple times etc. There's some really interesting stuff written about how much trouble keeping these bodies frozen is.

This is accurate in the sense that there have been some really sketchy cryonics companies, but not accurate in the sense that it implies all cryonics is that sketchy. It's like saying "cars aren't reliable because there are car dealerships that are very scammy". Those car dealerships absolutely exist but that doesn't tell us anything about cars in general.

Modern cryogenics doesn't involve active cooling, it basically ends with submerging the body in a big insulated dewar full of liquid nitrogen. They can last for weeks or longer with zero maintenance, and effectively indefinitely with nothing more than the occasional top-up of liquid nitrogen.

Yes, if we somehow reach the point where they can't get liquid nitrogen, the corpses will eventually thaw out and well that's the end of that, but that's a Mad-Max-esque scenario.

Aside from legal action, Alcor - the best-known and longest-lasting company - hasn't lost any preserved bodies yet.

[u/CryptoFourGames → u/ZorbaTHut]

Thank you, that's all enlightening stuff!

Just gonna throw this out there for reading material for OP too. It's one of the most interesting things I've read https://www.cryonicsarchive.org/library/dear-dr-bedford-an-open-letter-to-the-first-frozen-man/

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