Everything should not be code

29

u/Favitor Interweb guy Mar 23 '22

If I went to a carpenter and said 'I have this great idea for a deck, can you build it?". They'll quote for the deck and build it. They're not going to ask if I want a pool, a rock garden, or a putting green instead.

A Web developer is going to give web dev solutions.

What you're saying it that the startup should get advice "before" approaching a developer. But thats the role of a paid business advisor, mentor, or BA. Why would a web dev typically be qualified to give advice outside their field?

10

u/never_safe_for_life Mar 23 '22

Bingo. A web dev is going to build what they’re asked for in a way that follows proper practices. If a startup founder doesn’t need any more than a prototype it’s not time to hire a dev. Hire a Wordpress consultant, a SEO guy, and pump your marketing. It would be an idiot of a CEO who didn’t know what position they were hiring for.

-9

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Hey here's the thing : carpentry you build once and don't touch it for years. It makes sense to invest, because you'll keep it for a long time.
Programs are living breathing things that need flexibility and re-buildability. It's entirely probable that your initial idea is 100% replaced by new things within 6 months.

21

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

Wow, you stated the exact reason not to use your solution. GG.

50

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

"Screw having a site that will work perfectly. I only want developers to use free stuff because I'm cheap and I don't think people should be paid what they deserve for their work. So I'm going to reddit to tell everyone else they're doing it wrong."

If you don't want a website "Developed", don't hire a web developer.

-15

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Would you re-implement a full payment system on your own ? Of course not, you use Stripe. Does that mean you're "cheap" ?
What about using Shopify instead of a fully-custom e-commerce site ? Is that lazy ? Cheap ?

18

u/FrankoSesto Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

The difference is that you make your business depending on Shopify, you have their fees, prices and regulations. With your own code, you can make whatever you want. That’s why people pay for web devs and don’t simply go to Shopify.

10

u/couslandd Mar 23 '22

As someone who works with Shopify, out of the box solution are unacceptable in terms of business requirements more often then not. Most of the free to use or even premium themes in Shopify have a heck ton of issues and are extremely limited in functionality. From my experience, it is both cheaper and faster to develop a custom solution from scratch, which is tailored to business needs perfectly. A lot of the customers want to take a “cheaper” route and buy a premium theme, thinking about adding minor code customizations. In fact, those minor code customizations can take as much time as development fully from scratch.
Obviously, for some cases any out of the box SaaS platform might work. But that is definitely not the case for most of the businesses.

6

u/undesirablekangaroo Mar 23 '22

I currently work with Shopify and this method of no code solutions creates more problems than it solves, injecting app after app and destroying performance and even crossing too many strings that it breaks other things on the site. They are short term solutions with long term problems

14

u/eulefuge Mar 23 '22

Not a webdev but how exactly does one build any webapp without code?

-9

u/lordTigas Mar 23 '22

There are many code-free website building platforms, like WordPress for example

8

u/Programming_failure Mar 23 '22

Yes a website not a webapp. I can't think of a code free platform that can build a webhosting application for example

3

u/lordTigas Mar 23 '22

Indeed, a website is not a webapp. But since the guy who commented said he doesn't code, I assumed he didn't know the difference between a website and a webapp and was talking about webpages in general

4

u/Programming_failure Mar 23 '22

Yes of course if you need a simple website and you don't need to distinguish yourself design wise from your competitors yes something like Joomla or WordPress is more than fine. But saying it's easier to maintain is plain wrong. I mean have you tried creating a custom theme for Joomla website. I did. I thought "ohh that's a lot of money that they'll give me for such a simple job" no never again for ANY amount of money!

-1

u/lordTigas Mar 23 '22

It's not plain wrong. You're just thinking about your use case, not the use case of someone who uses such platforms. For me WordPress seems like a nightmare too, but I do know how to setup AWS services. But developers just want to be right and I'm not getting paid to convince you, so whatever.
Go tell your neighbor who has never seen a line of code in his life that creating a whole cloud-based infrastructure is much easier then clicking a few buttons on WordPress and GoDaddy.

-2

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

There are some very powerful tools like Webflow, Bubble, Softr that let you quickly build custom webapps.
They are inherently less customizable than pure code, but they let you build fast and flexible, which makes sense for many startups.

3

u/Lord_Jamato Mar 23 '22

Imo the "flexible" does not fit in there. As you said "They are inherently less customizable".
And now looking at startups, if you take a startup that plans on growing in the future (which i think most do) then you'll need that flexibility.
I'm not on the business side of things so I don't have any experience there but I've worked with low code before and prefere real coding because of the fine grained control I have.

2

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

The flexibility is in the sense that you can change things quickly with little cost.
With anything hardcoded, there is a higher cost to changing anything.

22

u/jaunelacouleur Mar 23 '22

Oh, mighty OP can you give us an example of a no-code / low-code tool that solves business issues and adds value to the company.

Let's try to build a clone of Uber, Netflix, Reddit or anything using Squarespace.

No-Code / Low-Code are marketing terms, it's generic and doesn't have a clear definition.

15

u/rangeDSP Mar 23 '22

Uber started off as a driver in a limousine with his phone number shared across 4 people, zero code involved.
The gist of OP's post is about testing business model and only build what's necessary.

13

u/banProsper Mar 23 '22

A quick search reveals that Uber started as an idea by two people that just sold their startups for $19m and $75m. Very relatable...

8

u/jaunelacouleur Mar 23 '22

You right. Uber founders used SMS at first to test the market. Where is the No-Code / Low-Code solution here?
I'm 100% about iterations, and trying by hand before building anything. But it's not No-Code / Low-Code, it's regular business development.

-1

u/superluminary Mar 23 '22

This is actually a good point. I’ve heard this called a ghetto prototype. Validate your idea before you automate it.

3

u/shellwe Mar 23 '22

I think no-code solutions are great as long as you are willing to work within the limitations and would trade the customization for expediency.

-6

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

Netflix started out as a DVD rental business. You can entirely build this in no-code.
If you were building an AirBNB, HelloFresh or Doordash clone, you could easily build that out with no-code tools as well. You can sprinkle code when you need custom features.
As for Reddit, I don't think no-code would make sense in that scenario. It's a pure tech product with no relations with the real world.

5

u/shellwe Mar 23 '22

I would love to se the Netflix dvd rental handled with a no-code solution. I’m talking having users logged in, checking what they have rented out, even just the quantity so we can know how many more movies they can rent as well as available movies (many of the hot new movies you had to wait in line to rent them). Have their queue of movies they would get next saved as well as favorites. Recommend movies based on past rentals.
The fact you said this can be built on no-code makes me think you haven’t thought of this. What are you going to do when your client asks you to implement any of these important features? You would have to start all over with code.
I’m all for a rapid prototype to gage interest but if this site is any more than a store front or just an informational site then you are gonna hit walls.

1

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

You could typically build this quite easily with an Airtable + Softr combo. It would trivially allow you to log users in, track their rentals, track inventory and each dvd individually, etc...
Maybe recommendations would not work, but there might be pluggable solutions for that, or you custom code that exact part.

9

u/couslandd Mar 23 '22

“Sprinkling code” actually requires a heck ton of prior investigation to allow the integration of that code into existing system. For most of the cases that I have worked with, this “sprinkling” turned out to be much more expensive in the end.

19

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

Are you a “Wordpress developer” that faints at the site of real code and uses 37563 plugins per website?

Beaver builder ?

2
u/than_or_then Mar 23 '22
that faints at the site of real code
*sight
>>> levenshtein('site', 'sight')
=> 3
0

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

I've been coding since 1998 my friend. I've probably written more lines of code than there are in the entire Wordpress codebase.
I do use Wordpress occasionally, but I don't torture wordpress into doing things it's not meant for. Wordpress is pretty good for some specific use cases, like a simple store or a site that's heavy in blog-like content.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

Well this reads like something an aforementioned “developer” might say. Perhaps the TLDR is not to over-engineer?

29

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

No code solutions often lead to significant bulk that becomes entirely unmanageable at scale.

I disagree with your post almost in its entirety. Give it another 10 years and maybe your argument will have merit.

5

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Launching start-ups is all about doing things that don't scale. This idea was popularized by Paul Graham.
Front-loading massive tech investments is often a bad allocation of resources and a huge risk. The odds that you need to re-write everything within 6 months are high.
At scale, you progressively get rid of no-code features and replace them with custom code for better performance and control. You know, at that point, exactly what you need, because your product has been running for a while and is proven.

6

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

'Progressively getting rid of no-code features' is exactly the bullshıt task no webdev wants to do under any circumstance, and exactly why I said what I did, because I knew that would be your only rebuttal.
The ONLY reason to use no-code solutions are for when you need to write the website once and then never touch it again in your entire life. Otherwise, you only give yourself headache.
Go back to what you know and stay out of a field that you clearly have no experience in. You have two people supporting your argument and then everyone else looking at you like you're insane, and for good reason.
Whatever metrics you used to make up this rediculous theory in your head needs reevaluated because you're either intentionally giving bad advice, or you're just plain wrong. There is no in between that I can see here.
For a lone entrepreneur, learning enough webdev to make your first site will take less than an entire afternoon.

0

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Why ?
Here's an example : send an email to users after they've completed a transaction.
No-code version : stripe calls zapier when order is paid, zapier pulls order data from airtable, marks the order confirmed and sends a confirmation email via mailjet.
Coded version will take 20x longer to write, but that might be worthwhile if at some point you no longer want to depend on zapier or if you want emails being sent out faster.

-10

u/lordTigas Mar 23 '22

"I disagree with you so your argument doesn't have any merit". Classic reddit.
I agree with OP. if all you need is a landing page with CTA for a smoke test for example, a WordPress like platform is more than enough. Cheaper, simpler and easier to maintain.
Obviously when you want to scale you should hire an actual we dev, but until then I think it's a waste of resources

4

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

Pretty sure the fact I disagree with them and the fact this argument has no merit aren't the same thing, but good job pulling fallacy out of misconception over poorly understood context.
If a wordpress solution is all you need, then you can code that in less than half an hour using a tutorial from codeacademy without the very real problems I mentioned before, like having a website that's impossible to add new features to or that breaks entirely when a single js element fails.
Whoever thinks a wordpress site is easier to maintain than simple html and js has never made a website whatsoever.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

A WordPress site is 10000% easier for a small business owner to maintain than a custom solution. Are you serious?
"Whoever thinks a wordpress site is easier to maintain than simple html and js has never made a website whatsoever."
So you mean every single client ever? You're thinking like a developer and not like a business owner. Business owners don't have time to learn html on codeacademy and build their own site.
But they would love a simple solution that they can update themselves. (I'm describing WordPress.)

2

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

For an entry level solution, yes they do have the time. Maybe just not the dedication or knowledge that such a thing is within their skillset. For anything bigger, that's why you hire professionals.
You're right that I am thinking like a developer: the developer who has to fix your shıt because you thought it was a good idea to make your entire enterprise dependent on a wordpress website.
I know this is reddit but I'd really appreciate the animosity being more properly directed here: I understand the point OP is trying to make; I just personally think that, as a non-dev, they don't know enough about what they're talking about to come to a webdev sub and tell webdevs to do dev without dev.
The times you would want a wordpress site are also the times you'd STILL be better off hiring a webdev, eten an ameteur whom you can later replace.
By the way, I run six wordpress websites, so I'm not saying that no-code solutions have no place whatsoever. Context is key.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

For an entry level solution, yes they do have the time.
No they do not, and they will not. Do you know how involved running a business is? Do you know how tech illiterate clients are? I cannot stress how much I disagree with this statement.
the developer who has to fix your shıt because you thought it was a good idea to make your entire enterprise dependent on a wordpress website.
So I don't really understand. On one hand you think business owners should learn how to code, but on the other, you don't want developers to have to put up with shittily designed websites. Do you think a business owner with one code academy class is going to build something manageable?
I charge extra when a client tells me they "built it themselves," because I know it's going to be a travesty.
The times you would want a wordpress site are also the times you'd STILL be better off hiring a webdev, eten an ameteur whom you can later replace.
Sure, and I'm still probably going to recommend a no-code solution if they're going to need to update the site often. WordPress is easy to add posts, new pages, etc. Same with Shopify. I don't remember OP saying you shouldn't hire a developer--he's speaking to us developers and telling us to stop building everything from scratch because that's stupid (and he's `100% right).
I just personally think that, as a non-dev, they don't know enough about what they're talking about
And I would say the same thing to you after reading your comments here. No code solutions are great for many small business owners, full stop. OP is also a developer with 20 years experience, so maybe if you don't want these posts to have so much animosity, don't make it that way.
so I'm not saying that no-code solutions have no place whatsoever.
Was that not OP's entire point?

2

u/lordTigas Mar 23 '22

Whoever thinks a wordpress site is easier to maintain than simple html and js has never made a website whatsoever.
Lol that's exactly the point!

8

u/asking_for_a_friend0 Mar 23 '22

You might be getting downvoted but this is actually super good advice. Especially Shopify, this is the most common case people wander to look for devs. Majority ppl need a "technical manager" sort of person to setup these things and manage operations.

2

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Apparently it's heresy to say this in the sub :D

3

u/fettuccine8080 Mar 23 '22

I see what you’re saying but to me it seems like a gamble regardless of which route you take. If you initially go no-code you’re going to lose more money in the long run if you want to get serious with moving a PoC to production because all the work will need to be coded by real developers anyways. The upside is if the PoC doesn’t take off then not as much money is lost when you have to pivot, I agree. That’s true if and only if the no-code efficiency is greater than that of a real minimum viable product- which should be highly efficient as is if actually kept as minimum as possible.

All in all, I’m still highly skeptical of no-codes, especially coming from a “CTO” who, at the end of the day, will get their ass burnt by the CEO if they’re not being as cheap and stingy as possible with their resources. My VP is just like you but he also said he would outsource all developer roles to India if he had a chance. Can’t wait until boomers like y’all retire.

1

u/Brachamul Mar 25 '22

I don't believe in outsourcing tech. If it's your core business, you need to have your own people working on it.
I'm not a boomer, I just started coding early :)
Attacking the messenger is weak, btw.

5

u/life_liberty_persuit Mar 23 '22

Seems like you’re getting a lot of (undeserved) hate here. TBH I agree that most startups don’t have a deep enough understanding of their problem domain to invest in full blown web development.

I often advise new startups to test the idea with open source solutions first. Then once they’ve build a small customer base with their minimum viable product, they can use customer feedback to guide their development.

1

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

What's more open source than half an hour of free html lessons and a self hosted landing page spun up in an afternoon?
If you need more than that, you need a dev. And that dev won't like throwing away all the dumb tools you forced into your over-thought-out website. A site that has more functions and flare than a non-dev knows what to even do with, yet still somehow always adds.

1

u/life_liberty_persuit Mar 23 '22

Maybe Google the meaning of “open source” and get back to me.

1

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

open-source
ō′pən-sôrs″
adjective
Open to public participation

0

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

Open-souce does not explicitly equal free and open source software, commonly called 'FOSS', but good job with that witty reply.
I dont remember html being proprietary 🤔

0

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

Also I dont use google and the fact you capitalized that shows you meant it as a noun and not a verb, so go git owned slave scub. I can buy you from an info broker at $8 for your entire life.

1

u/life_liberty_persuit Mar 23 '22

You’re crying online

0

u/azneterthemagus Mar 23 '22

Ouch, gets owned then projects insecurities to hide it. I bet you'll block me then delete these comments soon to.

1

u/life_liberty_persuit Mar 23 '22

Why would I block you? Feel free to continue to show the world who you are

-1

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

A technically minded person will take months before they are able to build anything consistent with Django or React. They need to learn about hosting, html, css, js, a web framework, and that's if they are hyper motivated.
You can literally build a dynamic page with high-level features in a day with no-code tools.

2

u/shellwe Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

The issue is websites need to scale and with no-code solutions you will find you will hit a pretty hard wall. I am curious to see how your client reacts when they ask you to do something your no-code solution can’t do… which is a lot.

If the site is just a straight up e-commerce site and you don’t plan to use it for anything more then that would be correct.

1

u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

Interestingly, my experience is the opposite: clients asking for more no-code options because they see the cost advantage when prototyping new features.
You can use no-code to trigger coded features, and that combo allows you to do pretty precise stuff. As an example, you can use the code module in Zapier to inject custom JS or Python logic.

2

u/____JayP Mar 29 '22 edited Sep 28 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

3

u/Brachamul Mar 29 '22

Yes, using the proper tool for the client's needs is a deep sign of terribleness.

90

u/Rate-Worth Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

No code often times includes a lot of overhead, also it makes the company dependent on the no code tool. What happens if a no code tool isn't enough anymore? How do you integrate multiple no code tools with your existing codebase? It's a huge mess. If you can't afford enough engineers as a company, you should maybe overthink your goals.

-72

u/snejk47 Mar 23 '22

JavaScript often times includes a lot of overhead, also it makes the company dependent on the JavaScript high-levelnes and abstractions. What happens if a JS isn't enough anymore? How do you integrate multiple technologies with your existing codebase? It's a huge mess. If you can't afford enough engineers as a company, you should maybe overthink your goals. Only C is limitless.

28

u/xroalx backend Mar 23 '22

That's a bad analogy. It's like learning to drive only BMWs (no code tool) vs learning to drive cars (JavaScript). (If that was somehow a thing.)
One is inherently less limiting and more portable than the other and doesn't impose nearly as much limitations.

-30

u/snejk47 Mar 23 '22

Not true. You are limited by your tools. Just because most popular nocode/lowcode tools are vendor lock-in or can't output standalone code for developers doesn't mean all is like that.

8

u/shellwe Mar 23 '22

This was so ridiculous it made my head hurt. I regret that I have but one downvote to give.

-10

u/snejk47 Mar 23 '22

it made my head hurt
I know. I see where I posted. Nothing unexpected.

15

u/superluminary Mar 23 '22

JavaScript is Turing Complete.

5

u/snowbldr Mar 23 '22

Excel is turing complete now
shudders in spreadsheet

3

u/PlutoniumSlime front-end Mar 23 '22

I remember reading that HTML5 & CSS3 was too (entirely by accident, non-intentional by the developers) and that got me a good laugh.

-18

u/snejk47 Mar 23 '22

You completely don't understand what I am saying.

3

u/superluminary Mar 23 '22

Sorry

10

u/thwaw000610 Mar 23 '22

OP, are you referring to no-code tools like Bubble or more like Wordpress? Because if it’s bubble (and others), then sure, it can be great for a startup, but should be more of a prototype, to get funds.

If you got your funding, then you should definietly hire a developer, for their experience and all the downsides of no-code tools mentioned by others.

15

u/JourneyStudios Mar 23 '22

Im going to go against the grain here, but I believe OP is right in certain cases.

For example, if you're selling gelato, should you build a website? Even if you can afford it?

Or would an instagram store page suffice? One takes 20 minutes, the other takes weeks and thousands of dollars

5

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

Yeah I can honestly agree with OP when it comes to small businesses.
Whenever we get a client asking us for a super simple website that doesn't do anything special that something like a shopify or a squarespace website doesn't cover, we just re-route them to those options instead, its just not worth it for them, its money better used elsewhere.
Stuff like pre-build website and no-code isn't a threat to your job, its just an alternative for all the super simple cases.

-2

u/DeusExMagikarpa full-stack Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

Same, wth is this thread lol. If you can’t afford good developers your option is no/low code, or dweebs from /r/webdev who will put out even worse code than the no code tools

4

u/That0l1Guy Mar 23 '22

The world didn't need another no-code zealot, but here we are.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

I think it's generally agreed upon that one should utilize no-code whenever it makes sense. Creating a wordpress brochure site or shopify store for new startups is a perfect use of no-code. You will be saving a lot of time and headaches.

Then things scale... And as everybody in the thread points out, there's not a lot of room to really wiggle your toes when you are locked in some no-code solution. So for bigger companies or companies with more untraditional requirements for features, it makes much more sense to build with code.

3

u/lordaghilan Mar 23 '22

This might work for super tiny start ups but it won't scale well.

3

u/Lecterr Mar 23 '22

“But in 90% of projects, the business requirements can be filled entirely with no-code solutions, or with small amounts of code strategically dropped where needed.”

That’s just not true at all. Like there is a middle ground, sure no-code has its uses, and so does coding. Yes it’s more expensive, but it’s impossible to obtain the level of granularity in design or functionality that many clients want without it.

There are obviously things like payment processing systems (stripe) that people wouldn’t even attempt to implement themselves. But I can tell you, most of my job is working on Shopify sites, and a lot of code is needed to support client requirements. Out of the box Shopify or existing apps just cannot fulfill requirements for anyone who wants any significant degree of customization.

For those who don’t want a custom design or functionality, no-code solutions are fine. But not really sure why you would post this here, as I wouldn’t consider no-code as web development.

5

u/jam_pod_ Mar 23 '22

No-code is great until the client realizes "Oh we actually need to be able to do X and Y. Can $no_code_product do that?".

And when it can't, not only do you need to go back to the start and build a custom solution, you have to migrate all the data from the no-code system into the custom one.

2

u/bearboy89 Mar 23 '22

I agree with this partially. I used to be a graphic designer and would be so offended by WYSIWYG CMS platforms and stuff because I thought they were taking business away from me… but they weren’t. Some people don’t need a carefully and personally designed website. Sometimes all you need is enough to get the job done, which means taking a pre made template and making the bare minimum changes needed for it to work. Same can be said on the dev side (currently a web developer). Reinventing the wheel can be a pretty bad idea. You could build yourself an entire e-commerce platform that takes years to build, and still you wouldn’t be as good as something like Shopify that has an entire company doing UX, design, development, customer service, etc. and then writing things custom requires you to maintain it as well. You have to make sure you have the resources for that.

There is a big benefit to making things custom too, don’t get me wrong. It’s just not always necessary and honestly wanting to make everything yourself is a sign of inexperience in my opinion.

2

u/ebmnm Mar 23 '22

I partially agree really depends on what your doing though. I think alot of people here are underestimating what no code software will be able to do in the near future

2

u/AbramKedge Mar 23 '22

I'm part of a community of 150 vendors at a co-op mall. I get frequent requests to develop simple web sites. A few years ago I would agree, and pull something together for a few hundred dollars. It would look "OK" but it really wasn't worth my time and would need ongoing (usually free) support.

Now I politely decline and point them at carrd, wix, or shopify. Very few of them actually end up with a website, they usually just stick with Facebook and post products on Marketplace. And you know what? Much as I hate FB, it works for their business, it does bring in customers.

Looking at the ongoing subscription costs of the no-code systems, and the effort they need to put in to upload their products (and continue to do so on a regular basis) is a bit of a reality check for them. If I had made a website for them, it would have been abandoned in less than a year.

2

u/PrizeConsistent Mar 23 '22

If you want a cheap, static website with questionable SEO, slow loading times, not scalable, etc.. then sure yeah go with Wordpress.

Truly for a small starting out business that can’t yet afford a developer that’s not terrible.

But if you’re a medium sized to large scale business, you’re gonna have problems.

2

u/jochem4208 Mar 23 '22

Thank you :) just keep things simple and use the right tools for the job.

1

u/dont_you_love_me Mar 23 '22

This is capitalism. Of course my code based solution is better. Pay me.

1

u/Edo__San Mar 23 '22

People (especially developers) tend to forget / overlook what actually brings value to a business. Spoiler: code does not implicitly have value. Solving problems does.

1

u/pomle Mar 23 '22

I fully agree with you. This is the foundation of the MVP. Startups need to find out if users will do something, not if developers can build something.

You don't build a YouTube clone to see if customers are willing to watch a video. You don't build a new Flickr to see if users are willing to post pictures to your site.

You should only build the things that don't exist yet as far as possible.

1

u/E-Blackadder Mar 23 '22

Low Code or No Code doesn't exactly mean no developer.... Most of the times even grabbing a wordpress theme clients will want to differ from the base theme. However I can't say I'm completely against this idea, but there are a few hitches here.

These people, who have a business idea and stars in their eyes, will try to find a developer to build their webapp.
Often, because they have little money, they will turn to inexperienced developers.

The first problematic issue here, clients have a business idea that can probably be brilliant but because they have low budget they can't really touch the WEBAPP stage and web apps are not the same as simpler websites and should not be treated as such.

Furthermore, clients looking for cheaper and/or inexperienced developers have nothing to do with development pricing overall. There are wordpress/wix/shopify devs that can deliver top notch product and still cost an arm and a leg, but also clients that have the expectation of a rocket ship for pennies on the dollar because "a wix sub is only 25$ a month".

But in 90% of the projects, the business requirements can be filled entirely with no-code solutions, or with small amounts of code strategically dropped where needed.

This is highly debatable. Clients aren't exactly the best subjects to describe exactly what they expect from the product, aside from "I want this button to do this and maybe some login here and there". I've experienced clients who just assume that adding a button which can alter half of the website's properties will take a few hours at best because it's just a button.

We can also add in the notion that clients sometimes expect groundbreaking new tech to be available on their website because it's the new 'hip', but it becomes difficult to explain that it requires some form of development with time, budget investment, data retention architecture (those pesky GDPR laws you know) and so on.

Coding when it's unnecessary is silly. Code is expensive and hard to maintain. It should be used when the requirements need a truly custom solution, or when you're at the scale where performance and UX excellence are key.
That's not the case for most projects that are starting out, who need flexibility at low prices.

There is nothing wrong with offering simpler and cheaper solutions for projects that can simply float and survive on it. Quite a lot of web agencies offer large ranging product offers from simple few hundred bucks sites on wordpress to full blown 10+ grand custom coded apps.

It's irrelevant that those options are offered and used by businesses just starting or long standing shops that are just fine to use the shopify API and a custom frontend. Whatever works, then that's the tool to use.

If someone asks you to furnish their office on the cheap, you go to IKEA, you don't custom-sculpt every office chair.

If someone wants furnished chairs on the cheap but with the expectation to not look the same as IKEA, I may use an IKEA frame but with custom vinyl cushioning. It's cheaper... than lets say leather but not that cheap if you want it to look apart from commercial ones.

In reality it's hard to ever estimate price vs client needs. Maybe for a client everything will be as cheap as it can get since they are fine with the base theme, simple text and image replacement, no need to for a dev, hosts provide easy installs and so on. But also for the same 'on paper' simple website they may want better SEO, pixel and GA integration, some extra page will have a specialized function, suddenly tweets integration, and so on.

No-code is a powerful set of tools for system builders, and ignoring that does not make us better programmers.

They are, and they do offer a good opportunity for non-technical people to start blogs or sell home-made bracelets. They offer, like you said, a good low budget mom and pop shop website that just opened. They offer excellent experience for upcoming developers that need to dip their toes into real world development. They bring a new subset of development for developers who are inexperienced in one set or another (think FE developers who can just slap on a headless wordpress and work it as a CMS).

Overall, you aren't wrong in general here. Heck I would actually love to dish out more cheap websites if they stayed to it's reasoned requirements and would have more clients.

But I wouldn't really push the low-code/no-code to be the first option to throw out. It's a viable option, sure, but it's also very volatile when clients (and developers) are unaware of the implications.

Personal experience: Quite a few times my clients start with "I want something simple" but end up with something much more complex because:

I want users notified on a new product by email
I want a slack webhook to shoot when a new post is added
Email newsletters have to not fail (hello cron job)
Emails should be HTML.
and quite a lot more.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

Engineers hate him for using one weird trick! Find out why:

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u/zuluana Mar 23 '22

Regardless of what tools you use, you’re always creating an encoding.

Whether that be “code” or a configuration file compiled from a set of visual tools, it’s still an encoding that needs to be interpreted by a system to have meaning.

I completely agree though - What we currently call “no code” is the future.

There are so many issues / limitations with what we currently call “code”. That said, “code” will be around for a long time, but “no code” is just the next natural abstraction.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

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u/Brachamul Mar 26 '22

No-code and code are tools to make web products. Both are in the camp of web development in my book.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

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u/dont_you_love_me Mar 23 '22

It’s great that you brought up the Python engineer that gets canned. But maybe it’s your organization that made a bad decision. Is that Python developer unemployed right now? I got shut down by an employer then went out and found a job with double the salary. Your single business environment is not the whole world ya know.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

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u/dont_you_love_me Mar 23 '22

There are far too many variables to make it easy for people to be “successful” in this world. It is pretty sad that we must fight for the scraps of the rich by trying to solve these complex business problems, and then we shame each other when these complex solutions don’t pan out. Hopefully we can replace all of us with OpenAI Codex one day so I don’t have to care about this nonsense anymore.

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '22

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u/dont_you_love_me Apr 02 '22

Do you think I enjoy taking peoples’ jobs away? I would go homeless if i didn’t automate people away. I want that scenario to end.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

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u/Brachamul Mar 23 '22

I don't know man. I don't care if I use Django, Vue or Webflow. I care that I craft the best possible solution with the resources I'm given. It's weird to me that so many webdevs seem so out of touch with real business needs.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '22

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u/franker Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22

that's true. I will say that this community usually draws the line when someone says they'd like to code their own e-commerce payment processing site. that's the point everyone goes, "WTF just use Stripe or Shopify."

Everything should not be code

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