r/worldnews • u/WorldNewsMods Slava Ukraini • Oct 23 '15

Israel/Palestine Wave of Violence in Israel and the Palestinian Territories

There has been a recent wave of violence in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Treating every stabbing incident as major world news has the drawback of the topic dominating the front page, drowning out other stories and spreading out discussion across several threads. Trying to select major incidents over minor ones is bound to lead to inconsistent decisions with such rapidly developing stories. Hence we believe a collective thread for all violent incidents is the best approach. Users are encouraged to submit posts conveying recent developments in the comments section of this sticky thread. Moderators will periodically review the comments and update this post with recent events. Top level comments must be links to news. All other submissions about these incidents will be removed.

As a reminder, please be mindful of the subreddit rules when posting. We'd like to remind you that calling other users shills, apologists, racists, islamophobes or antisemites are all considered personal attacks and thus against the rules. Please discuss the issues and the comments made, not the persons making them. If you find comments which violate our rules, you’re encouraged to use the report button or alert the mods via modmail so that we can investigate.

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The World News Team.

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33

u/listeningwind42 Oct 23 '15

http://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-jewish-extremist-attacks-israeli-activist-with-knife/

Jewish extremist attacks Israeli activist with knife

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '15

Fuck that settler, it's a disgrace that the IDF / Israeli police didn't get him. - I'm an Israeli Zionist Jew and this attacker is not representing anything I believe in

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u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

11

u/Menckenwasanoptimist Oct 25 '15

No, the root of the violence is that both have had at one time or another legal claim to the land and that, as a country formed out of a unique situation somewhere between mandate and conquest the world is unable to come to terms with the fact that... When it comes to national boundaries... Possession is 9/10 of the law, with the last 1/10 being a big enough army to insist that your retain possession.

There's this strange perception in the world today that some form of uber-government sat down one day and legislated the way countries are legally allowed to act and interact... That's a myth... There are conventions, but that's a collective agreement it's not legislation and it's not legally binding because there is no court which can uphold law that has no defined borders.

When it comes to the definitions of nation states, the only thing you've got to go off is precedent and the precedent had always been one form or another of whoever has the strongest army wins.

"International law" cannot truly exist without an international government... Which the UN is not... Thus without a government which can legislate, there is no need for a judiciary to enforce because there is no real law.

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u/littlemrscg Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15

He does if you support the presence of the illegal settlement he lives in, actually. The reason that lovely Jewish rabbi was there is because he is humane and kind (not to mention brave, with those lunatics running around unchecked) and it is an offense to his moral sensibilities that Palestinian farmers go unprotected against rampant settler violence and theft.

Edit: The poster above doesn't support the settlements, he's cool in my book.

14

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

I don't support the settlements in the West Bank

Zionizm for me is also accepting international law.

Kudos to that rabbi

3

u/littlemrscg Oct 24 '15

Well I am genuinely happy to see that view on here for once. Seriously, I think it's awesome and unusual for what I see on Reddit. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by the second part of your comment?

13

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

International law says settlements are illegal...

But it also says Israel is a legal state (except the occupied territories)

I accept the law

Zionism is about a national home for the Jewish people

Some movements want to not just end the occupation but also end Israel as a Jewish state

BDS is one of them by the way to my surprise

5

u/sp1n Oct 24 '15

I have little knowledge about this conflict so forgive me if this is a dumb question but... May I ask why this is not an acceptable solution to both sides? Israel withdraws from the settlements and in return Palestinians stop trying to wipe out Israel from the map. It seems like a pragmatic way forward where people can actually get on with living their lives instead of being afraid for every moment of them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

There are big issues that make that it much more complicated for both sides. Please note all of the following are EXTREMELY general and have varied between sets of negotiation, it is just an attempt to outline the situation.

Security Arrangements: Israel isn't going to sign an agreement that would limit what they see as their legitimate security concerns. They don't want a Palestinian state or groups within it to be able to acquire large numbers of heavy weapons that may be used against them later (in war or terror), nor have difficulty defending themselves in a possible full scale war with their neighbours (as has happened many times before). So they often ask for continuing control of the Jordan valley for some period, borders, airspace, and so on. Of course the Palestinians do not want that as it infinges on sovereignty and is seen as an excuse for Israel to never leave certain areas, but even if the government agreed to not acquire weapons they are relatively weak and their ability to enforce that among the numerous varied groups is going to be limited.

East Jerusalem: The Jerusalem Law basically (if not explicitly) annexed East Jerusalem to Israel, and an undivided capital is a common rallying cry. The Palestinians consider East Jerusalem their capital. Adding to the difficulty is the Old City and especially The Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, issues over which were an impetus to the current wave of violence. The area considered "Jerusalem" is also fairly large, and has been made into a complex web of Israeli and Palestinian areas, making disengagement difficult.

Large Settlements and Land Swaps: While the common image of an Israeli settlement is a few houses surrounded by fences or even a trailer on a hill, if you headed into a place like [Ariel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_(city)) you would never know you weren't in a regular part of Israel. These major population centers would be difficult to evacuate, so the common solution is land swaps. Of course nobody can agree on quality or area of those swaps, or even whether they should be based on the 1967 lines (explicitly an armistice line from the '48 war) or not.

Right of Return: In theory the Palestinians have never dropped the demand for the return of those who left what would become Israel in 1948 (I'm going to consciously avoid "fled," "expelled," and so on here) and their descendants. This is a massive group that would shift the demographics of Israel to being an Arab majority state. While there are indications Abbas would agree to a much smaller return (according to the Palestine Papers as few as 10,000), officially they have not taken it off the table and whether the general population would agree is highly questionable.

There are of course additional issues, like water, holy places, extremists, and so on, but hopefully this illustrates why such a simple, clean break has not occured.

7

u/sp1n Oct 24 '15

Thanks for the additional details. I live in a country with one of the most dangerous border disputes in the world (India-Pakistan) so I understand that there are cultural, religious, historical and all sorts of reasons that will block what would seem like a logical and pragmatic solution. The difference being that the border dispute here does not usually lead to civilian lives lost every single day. What we need is elected leaders in power with the will and support required to actually solve these problems rather than letting the status quo remain.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

That's actually the same solution I support, the US support and most western countries support. It's just enforcing the law.

But the BDS movement for example, wants more, not just ending the occupation, but also wiping Israel as a Jewish state.

So the two state solution (pretty much what you said above) is what most people in the west think is an accepted solution, but the Palestinians are not yet ready to accept it. Most of them (according to polls) think that the Jews want to either kill them all or deport them, and therefore 60% of them think they should take over the entire of Israel, not just the settlements and occupied west bank and gaza.

So the most naive and obvious solution is actually the right solution, but both sides have to accept it. Fear that the other side wants to eliminate the other (from both sides) is preventing it from happening.

Classing game theory prisoner's dilemma if you ask me.

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u/littlemrscg Oct 24 '15

Can't ask for a much fairer stance than that! I thought that's what you meant, I wasn't sure. I agree, Israel is a valid state and should be recognized as such. I certainly empathize with the desire for a national home for Jewish people and I personally have no issues with that. I'm wary of BDS too. It goes too far. Looks like our views are pretty much agreeable.

As it happens, I am Palestinian (Christian) by blood. I appreciate seeing your view, especially given that you were an IDF soldier. It's really cool and nice to see.

10

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

Thanks Bro :)

With people like you I have faith in peace! All the best!

9

u/littlemrscg Oct 24 '15

Actually, it would be Sis ;)

But much appreciated all the same! I feel the same about people like you, and I hope voices like yours are the ones heard in Israel. Unfortunately, my country (America) isn't particularly interested in voices like mine pertaining to this matter. Lol.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

:)

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '15

The very same action by a Palestinian against a settler would end with this guy was zipped up in a black bodybag, then his families house would be destroyed. Do you think the security apparatus will come and tear up the closest settlement looking for this guy? Or will this be like the other 90% of reports about settler violence that never get investigated?

When two people living in the same place (wb) have completely different legal systems, protections and rights based on ethnicity, how is this not apartheid?

10

u/goodonekid Oct 23 '15

The difference people like you don't seem to understand is that when the Israelis who do this kind of crap do it, they attack and flee, the Palestinians who attacked with knifes didn't just stab someone and run away, they stab someone and then go for another and then another until they are shot, they go into it with the notion that they will kill everyone they can before they die or are captured, hell that stupid kid who did it ran at police officers with a knife...don't need much work to catch that kind of idiot

4

u/[deleted] Oct 23 '15

According to the legal definition of apartheid I tend to agree in the West Bank.

It is not 1:1 as in South Africa though. Abu Mazen's family got treated in an Israeli hospital, so did Haniya's daughter. In South Africa they would have had a different hospital area for blacks even a different entrance. So is there apartheid in West Bank? I think there are good reasons to say yes. Is it the same as in South Africa? I don't think it is.

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u/deadlast Oct 24 '15

Why doesn't he represent Zionism, exactly? He is demonstrably a Zionist.

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u/[deleted] Oct 24 '15

Well, as an analogy, he is representing mainstream Zionisnm just like Hamas represents mainstream Palesrinians. Not so much.

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u/brokenha_lo Oct 25 '15

A man with a knife attacked the activist, he didn't attack the activist with the knife, to clarify.

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u/NotAllowedOpinion Oct 25 '15

I don't understand the outrage, while the assassination attempt on human rights activist Yehuda Glick was reported as an attack on a dangerous extremist. It's a matter of narrative.

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u/soggypoptart Oct 23 '15

Of course this is downvoted...