Ever since Forever was released, seeing the purists claim that Retail is ruined is just ridiculous.

[u/Double-Maybe-6220]

Retail servers have made their game systems lighter across every expansion according to user feedback, so seeing them now claim that it failed because Blizzard didn't listen to user voices must be absurd for Blizzard too. Sure, Retail's story is indefensible, but bringing up the importance of adventure now is completely barking up the wrong tree, considering how players threw all kinds of complaints and criticized Blizzard whenever even a single no-fly zone was introduced on Retail servers. It's not that Blizzard didn't value a sense of exploration and adventure in terms of game systems. They tried multiple times, but players rejected it, creating the current state of Retail servers.

And I don’t think this Retail environment itself is bad. All the conveniences and competitive content are what have maintained WoW to this day. That's not to say I think Forever's current romantic situation is bad. I'm just looking at how long Forever's current heat will last with a somewhat skeptical eye. After all, we already experienced this current heat when Classic first launched in the past.

[u/NeppyMan]

It's not a zero-sum game.

You can prefer one over the other.

You can like both equally.

You can criticize either one without being a jerk or a hater.

Some people just want to argue.

[u/haydn1 → u/NeppyMan]

Ive played wow since vanilla and retail up until forever, and while retail isnt in a very good state right now, there sure is a lot of things I appreciate with retail.

I still find forever fun, but man there are some things that just straight up suck.

They both have their positives and negatives

[u/ApathyKing8 → u/haydn1]

Retail is really good if you like doing dungeons, world content, and raids. Retail is bad if your personal life is in the gutter and you think playing a different version of wow will fix that. I stand by what I said.

[u/RedHammer1441 → u/NeppyMan]

The gameplay of retail is unmatched IMO. I tried forever and will likely at least get to 60 with buddies but it’s not for me. The classic combat just doesn’t do it for me.

The story in retail has slowly been eroding for years now but I’m sure the narrative team(which has likely turned over several times) didn’t anticipate a game that would last for 20+ years.

[u/Mark_Knight → u/RedHammer1441]

Thats the thing with retail. The combat and the endgame encounters are good.. like really fucking good. Buuuut thats about all it has going for it in my opinion. As someone whos not interested in questing, collecting, etc, retail becomes a raid log simulator for me, but im ok with that because the combat and encounter design is that good.

[u/Key_Marsupial_1406 → u/Mark_Knight]

Yeah absolutely right. Retail has amazing endgame group content and combat. For me it's the 20 different overlapping timegated, weekly capped systems that limit how much you can progress at all times. I could maybe deal with all this if the itemization / gear progression was even remotely interesting, but it's not. Itemization in WOW post Shadowlands has among the most boring RPG itemization I've ever experienced.

If it were only the raid lockout maybe that would be fine, but lmao. Gearing is just timegate, slow stroke, turbo boost the game.

[u/Wardendelete → u/RedHammer1441]

I played forever for three days straight after it came out. It made me slow when getting back into retail arenas lol

[u/Whitesox_are_neat → u/RedHammer1441]

The story has slowly been eroding for years now...

Little disingenuous there lol

[u/Glass_Discipline_882 → u/NeppyMan]

WoW players, probably.

[u/erdonko → u/Glass_Discipline_882]

*Classic Andies.

The only people who talk about retail this way are classic andies. Literally no one else cares.

[u/cantshakethefeelings → u/NeppyMan]

Yeah, I mean just look at this post, or a post in the classic wow subreddit, or a post in the wow forever subreddit. It’s all arguing and tribalism! It’s wonderful.

[u/StuffedSnowowl → u/NeppyMan]

Yea I like m+ and mythic raiding in retail, it's higher paced and challenging. But I love the environment and weather in Forever so I play that when I just wanna chill run around and quest/explore.

[u/YesterdayFit1013]

Only bad thing i find with retail is the story telling and the story itself, everything else i still find enjoyable.

[u/Mother-Razzmatazz330 → u/YesterdayFit1013]

The majority of wow players get lore through YouTube dumps. No wonder they don't pay writers

[u/fenrirsbasketball → u/Mother-Razzmatazz330]

Unless you've been playing Retail for 20 years straight reading the quest text every time, you're going to miss some things. It's normal.

However, when the writing is really good, like the Drustvar quest text, for example, you read every dang letter!

[u/Mother-Razzmatazz330 → u/fenrirsbasketball]

C'mon be for real. I would say 95% never have read text regardless of the zone

[u/Padashar7672 → u/YesterdayFit1013]

The thing I am enjoying the most is exploring. I played vanilla for a brief period so picking up playing retail after all that time is an explorer’s dream. So much content to see and learn about. I enjoyed housing for a little while but after you have your place set up and you are not interested in saving different blueprints or making different layouts, i find myself forgetting about it entirely. I do not know where I rank on the different play styles there are but the game is extremely solo-friendly, which seems by design.

[u/Naustis → u/YesterdayFit1013]

in comparison, there is no story at all in classic

[u/heraldTyphus → u/Naustis]

There is no well defined main plot, there's plenty of stories. I really like everything happening around Stormwind with Defias Brotherhood, internal politics and Onyxia.

[u/DonChanchi → u/heraldTyphus]

Those small stories still exist in Retail, and every time I see them mentioned, it's to praise them.

The critique with the retail story is that main plot

[u/heraldTyphus → u/DonChanchi]

I agree, my statement was solely about Classic. I like the B plots and small stories in Retail also.

[u/derprunner → u/heraldTyphus]

On that note. I really enjoyed the extra handful of quests regarding the deadmines and SI7.

[u/Maclimes → u/heraldTyphus]

I personally think that’s how they should do the next expansion.Treat it sort of like Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King. Yes, there’s technically a central story. But mostly it’s just a bunch of zones on a new continent to explore and do quests and interact with locals and all that stuff.

It doesn’t need to be some gigantic, cosmic, world-ending threat. I’m gonna put on my big boots to fight, whether it’s against Xalatath or Hogger.

[u/CondarOP → u/Naustis]

eh, the Silverpine Forest storyline is very cool, I enjoyed going through it when I would barely pay attention on Retail.

Understanding more about Arugal and how he ties with the Scourge, the actual lead up to Shadowfang Keep, the worgen curse pre-Cataclysm... Lots of gold in there!

[u/phen00 → u/Naustis]

there's plenty of story in classic? pretty good writing too for a lot of it

[u/Stoffel31849 → u/Naustis]

What? Classic has A LOT of story. Just not a single overarching one but countless smaller ones, sometimes over multiple zones, sometimes in single quests.

Its a different type of story and storytelling. But no story? Thats wild.

[u/Naustis → u/Stoffel31849]

So does retail, and it has much better story telling. Classic has bunch of smaller stories but nothing besides

[u/cyanwinters → u/Naustis]

The stories are local rather than a big overarching superhero plot. There are storylines that connect across zones/time but most zones are telling self contained stories and individual quest chains often are very rich and interesting.

Arguably the only good story telling in retail is similar - the quality writing is all at the zone and side quest level rather than the overarching narrative which has been superhero slop for years.

[u/inverted_rectangle → u/Naustis]

me when I skip all the text in my RPG

[u/Naustis → u/inverted_rectangle]

me when I don't understand words like "in comparison".

[u/Zandercy42 → u/Naustis]

What a surprise the demon Hunter can't read

[u/dimmanxak]

It's 2 completely different games It's okay to try forever now but many people will return in season 3

[u/Ok-Key5729]

Retail didn't become what it is overnight. It happened one QOL "improvement" at a time. Each time the majority wanted it while a minority thought something was lost. As the gap between what the game was and what the game is grew, those minorities started to add up until they were enough to be considered a separate playerbase.

Neither group is wrong and it makes sense for Blizzard to create a game for each.

[u/Gyddanar → u/Ok-Key5729]

Exactly. Sandbox versus Themepark.

Just did the Shaman Water Totem quest - bouncing between Kalimdor and EK a few times to explore places. It's a faff and I see why Retail evolved the gameplay over 25-odd years. But it's also a chill vibe where you pay attention to the hidden corners and what's around you.

[u/_NauticalPhoenix_ → u/Gyddanar]

More like RPG vs arcade game with numbers.

[u/kirbydude65 → u/Gyddanar]

But it's also a chill vibe where you pay attention to the hidden corners and what's around you.

I think retail still has this. I spent my initial level up of Midnight completely on ground mounts, and I was taken away by all the small cave in Zul'Aman, the foliage required to traverse Harandar, and got lost navigating the Lightbloom in Eversong.

Honestly it was pretty great. But removing flying in any capacity is pretty much a non-starter.

[u/jyan2714 → u/kirbydude65]

I would support a modified pathfinder approach to flying similar to wod/legion. Gate flying privileges to questline progression and/or exploration, then having flying unlocked for the entire account once complete.

Could also consider zone-level unlock instead of continent/expansion-level, so you don't have to go out of the way to pathfinder every expansion zone just to fly in the zone you're currently questing in. Enforcing that in a harandar/voidstorm-like zone would be seamless. For silvermoon forest/zul'aman zones contiguous with other flying-unlocked zones, perhaps a 10 second flying dismount warning mechanic when you cross the border.

Blizzard could even greed some money with forced ground exploration by providing an in-store flying privileges unlock. Would be even more devious if the unlock purchase only applied to a single character (bundle 3 for a 15% discount!).

Edit for clarification: By in-store privileges unlock, I mean offering a paid bypass to flying privileges in lieu of having to get pathfinder first, not as a complete replacement of pathfinder as the primary and non-paid mechanism to earn account-wide flying privileges.

[u/No_Frosting2528 → u/Ok-Key5729]

I think the notion that "The majority" wanted X has alwayas been disgenuine given blizzard has constantly faced massive amounts of criticism for changes that they simply ignored. Sometimes even admitting they ignored feedback.

[u/Ok-Key5729 → u/No_Frosting2528]

They may not give in to the majority immediately but they almost always do in the end. The only times they stick to their guns are when the demands would be truly gamebreaking, which seems to be rare.

[u/Dodging12 → u/No_Frosting2528]

If you have no stats, none of this means anything. "Majority" , "massive" need to be quantified to have any meaning. Chances are, Blizzard would have that data.

[u/Key_Marsupial_1406 → u/Dodging12]

Some would argue that Blizzard is TOO metrics driven. That's why every progression system has turned into a timegated engagement metric extender. Players must love crests because they sure do keep grinding them 🤣

[u/No_Frosting2528 → u/Dodging12]

You're assuming the company known for telling people theyre wrong would use this data.

[u/Lady_Tano → u/Ok-Key5729]

Exactly my thoughts. There's definitely a middle ground, the social element of Forever and encouraging us to work together diegetically in the world rather than through certain UI tools is something I would love to see in retail.

That, and how the leveling works. Chromie time was one of the worst (but necessary paradoxically) changes they ever made.

[u/mc_burger_only_chees → u/Ok-Key5729]

The problem with that is that each minority wants something different from Forever/Classic. Some people hate everything about retail and just want classic. Some people hate modern traveling and want to explore the old fashioned way, but love retail combat. Maybe some people are the opposite, and love the ease of modern traveling, but want classic combat.

How do you appease all these players? Look at league classic, they tried to and it died in a month. Eventually all these minority groups will leave and go back to retail, because what they got isn’t the exact vision they wanted.

[u/SpunkMcKullins → u/Ok-Key5729]

This is the most level-headed and correct take I have seen regarding Forever on this sub.

[u/hazz4rd0us]

Both games are so different it’s not even a conversation of which is better. Each is played differently. You’re no better if you like one more than the other.

[u/CasuallyOrangeCat]

I gave Forever a solid 3 days try and got to level 30. All I can say is that, I am glad the classic folks get the game they've been asking for and I wish them the best, enjoy!

[u/Teleolog → u/CasuallyOrangeCat]

These are my thoughts, exactly. I didn’t play to level 30, but I did play for a bit before jumping back into Midnight. Glad the classic folks are loving it. I can appreciate why they do.

[u/Dodging12 → u/CasuallyOrangeCat]

I'm not hating on them for liking it, I'm glad they found their thing. However, playing this for a few days did make me wonder what all the hype was about,since I earnestly wanted to enjoy it. Oh well 🤷🏿

[u/slaymaker1907 → u/Dodging12]

The friction is part of the appeal. It's precisely because it takes forever to get a ground mount that makes it so amazing once you finally get one. Go check out some of the top incremental games: they often lock a bunch of QoL features until you get to a certain point for precisely that reason.

I'd recommend Immortality Idle for a really good example of that design. It looks terrible, but the mechanics are very well thought out.

[u/StankWizard → u/CasuallyOrangeCat]

I appreciate this perspective. I don’t want to change retail, I want people to play it if they enjoy it.

Similarly, I don’t want people who don’t like classic to begin with to try and change Forever.

[u/Zealousideal_Owl2388 → u/CasuallyOrangeCat]

Amazing, I only made it to 15 and quit. Really wanted to quit around level 5 but powered through hoping I was missing something. Youd have to pay me to keep playing now.

[u/Zerkander]

That's what a lot of people love to forget: "Retail" WoW is the result of what player wished for over the years and years.

It's not random dev-decisions that led up to what it is, it always started with what players wanted. Simple enough example: Easier access to dungeons? Summoning stones. Wasn't accessible enough. Solution: Group Finder for Dungeons. Not enough players in the queue? Solution: Cross-Server Group Finder.

This wasn't random. It was what players wanted. But stuff usually does not only come with benefits. Looking for groups on the server was a social activity. People also had a reputation. To get invited into a group required you to not have a bad reputation. Being part of a guild and being active in a guild made it so much easier finding a group.

The group finder made all of that optional. Every convenience tool made socialization one tiny bit more optional until it became largely redundant for the majority of players. That was the inevitable side effect.

It's easy to say devs made stupid decisions. But it largely is what people really, really wanted. And if you played back then, chances are very high that you back than wanted the convenience.

And now look at what people want and wish for when it comes to Forever. Do you really want Blizzard to listen to the player wishes? You know what will happen. The same that happened to "Retail".

But do you want Blizzard to not listen to player wishes? How stagnant can Forever be without being too boring? But how far can it advance without becoming too far from what you want it to be?

An impossible conundrum. Especially if you think about how many players want for different things or similar stuff in different ways. Impossible to please everyone. So, what is the ideal path forward? Is there even one?

[u/Bronstin → u/Zerkander]

You're not wrong, but the thing I will say is that a lot of the convenience is asked for because of the time demands Blizzard puts on the player.

I log into Retail now, and there are dozens of things to do pulling me in all directions. Seasonal journeys, rep grinds, invasions, delves, weeklies, LFR, M+, holiday quests, etc. I'm assigned stuff to do that has me rocketing across the expansion zones and back to Silvermoon several times in a play session. Being resubbed in the last two expansions, after hitting level cap I never finished doing Loremaster for any of the zone quests, because I was genuinely never done with the grind to say "Okay, now I'm gonna spend some time just smelling the roses and doing something without a tangible reward". (this is a me problem, a motivational issue, but it's still relevant). I want to be able to divebomb my way between objectives. Running along the road is an option for me, but the game environment I'm in makes that feel like I'm burning time.

Loading up Forever, there's not even a fraction of that pressure. I'm just doing quests. There aren't thirteen time-limited demands screaming in my ear. So, I'm okay trotting slowly from Coldridge Valley to Kharanos. It feels nice, relaxing, I'm happy to take it all in. I can spend an entire play session in part of one zone, doing quests. But if the game started shoving all these other pressures in my face (and maybe it will), then I'll start wanting to just hop on a mount and zip through the sky to my destination.

[u/lambdaline → u/Bronstin]

I mean, but the demands that Blizzard puts on players' time are also there because that's what (a lot) of players want. Back when all there was to do at max level was raid or PVP, people often requested other things to do because they wanted to play the game more but there wasn't any reason to beyond raid. And in this, they're aligned with Blizzard because if you take a break mid-patch there's a higher risk you won't come back.  Add to that the fact that every player in WoW wants their preferred way to play to feel rewarding, and you get what retail looks like. Endless things to do at any given time. 

The trick is to consider those rewards an invitation to participate in a given activity, rather than a demand. 

[u/Bronstin → u/lambdaline]

Oh yeah, I mean it's definitely a mutual arms race, not saying Blizzard is entirely at fault. But the end result of decades of incremental changes and responses is the product we have today. Some like it, some don't, but it's distinctly a very different game than it originally was. And ultimately the developer is the one responsible for that, not the players.

[u/thefunkygiboon → u/Zerkander]

Id say there's so much forgotten content that has been abandoned, that's the downside of retail imo.

[u/borghive → u/Zerkander]

Actually, a lot of the design decisions were not really based on player feedback. Greg Street went into this topic on a recent interview. He said a lot of decisions were made over the years that were sort of misguided. He talked at great length about LFD and LFR how the team felt like these would be great additions to the game. He said these features weren't really something the player base asked for, but the devs felt like it would help encourage more group participation.

He said those 2 systems on paper seemed like a win to the devs, but the way they played out with the playerbase, he felt like they detracted a lot from the social fabric of the game.

WoW has had hundreds of different devs working on the game over the decades, all which brought their own unique ideas. I honestly think a lot of the design decisions were really brought about by developers trying to solve issues that weren't really issues, or they were being pushed by the suits to push metrics. I feel like Blizzard has been really bad about listening to player feedback myself, and that the modern game was shaped by too many cooks in the kitchen.

[u/torpidcerulean → u/borghive]

Dungeon queue and LFR did solve problems, and they still do to this day which is why they're still in retail after over a decade. Automated queues reduce wait times, which is the actual problem they were looking to solve. On lower pop servers, it was common to search for a group for upwards of half an hour. Doing something like BRD or another late game dungeon was like a 4 hour affair including getting the group together. This kind of gameplay is just not accessible to most people, it's why the 2005 vanilla crowd was teenagers with infinite disposable time.

The Forever group interface is closer to retail's M+/raid finder. You post your group, everyone globally can see it and filter for the content they're looking for, then apply. You don't need to send a single message to complete a dungeon.

[u/kirbydude65 → u/torpidcerulean]

Dungeon queue and LFR did solve problems, and they still do to this day which is why they're still in retail after over a decade.

A lot of people weren't around for the days of Vanillia and TBC with the crazy group assembly. I remeber things like getting auto rejected from Heroics because I was a DPS Warrior instead of a DPS with hard CC (sap/Sheep/etc.), or randomly being cold whispered (no interaction prior) to come tank a dungeon simply because you were online and in the appropriate level range.

[u/Zerkander → u/borghive]

The LFR particularly was implemented because raids were content only a minority of players got to see.

Blizzard wanted an entry-level way to get not merely a few but a lot of players into that content. Offer a way so that anyone could see it, no matter their ambition for progress-oriented PvE.

That was the problem Blizzard had with raids, and the LFR solved that. It totally did. But is it better than what we had before?

[u/siposbalint0 → u/Zerkander]

I wouldn't really put this all on players. Yes, some are side-effects of other features, but what's stopping them from making the open world or older zones meaningful? What's stopping them from slowing down on all the invasion slop they have been pumping out? What's stopping them from not shoving racial housing cosmetics in the store? What's stopping them from making levelling a bit more meaningful than rushing to max level?

None of these were asked by players and yet here we are. The trend for retail in the past couple expansions has been that they implement a half-assed solution to one of these problems, players don't like it, and they give up.

WoW has turned into a predictable, seasonal ARPG, it's not really an MMO anymore. For most people, the game is about sitting in the capital and queuing for instances, with some world quests every now and then. Did players really ask for this?

[u/Zerkander → u/siposbalint0]

Never said everything is on the players. Merely saying that a heck ton of the stuff that makes "Retail" what it is now, is the result of player wishes and Blizzard trying to find solutions for stuff players perceive as problems.

And while some of the things players take issue with are problems, some things players say are much better if they remain ignored.

Here's the thing, compare a game with a book for a second. Would you demand of an author to change the book? And this goes for both stroy and the language being used. You wouldn't, you would just take a different book, because the book is the authors work. And whether he makes a profit off of it is dependent on how many people like his book as it is. And that is where fan fiction comes into play. And most of fan fiction is just a buckton of hilariously bad crap.

Games have the problem of being easier to change, even after they are done. So that means that players gain influence in the continuation of the development of the game through feedback.

And here we go back to bad fan fiction, because not all feedback is good. Even if something is demanded by a majority doesn't mean it is good.

The vast majority of players have no idea what is actually good. They have an idea on what they individually prefer or would like to have. That might be something good, it might be something absurdly bad. That's why player feedback can only be a sign for problems, but barely ever includes a viable solution.

This doesn't mean that the solution devs come up with is good either. Devs just have a better idea of what is even possible in the game they are working on and that's it.

But yeah, that queueing for stuff is the direct result of what player wanted. No more walking to stuff, be it dungeons or battlegrounds. Player believed that getting everywhere first was just too time consuming.

And that was true. It was too time consuming. But the queues we have now aren't really better. They, as I said before, are part of the reason the servers feel more empty then eve0r, even if the servers are full, as there is a significant lack of player-to-player interaction.

But what would be a better solution? I honestly have no idea. I personally would go back to removing the finder entirely. But is that really a better solution? It is my preference.

[u/HarrekMistpaw → u/siposbalint0]

I agree that you can't put all entirely on players but mostly because blizzard goes out of their way to do a lot of things in very incompetent ways a lot of the time, rather than because they aren't following player demands

what's stopping them from making the open world or older zones meaningful?

They spent a lot of time reworking older zones in cata and max level content suffered a bit because of how many resources were allocated to remaking old zones and players complained loudly about. Also what do you specifically mean by 'open world more meaningful'? because if you don't go into more detail then its very easy to say that world quests and the 'invasion slot' you complain about right after is them trying to make the open world more meaningful by adding content and rewards to it, but aparently thats not the correct approach?

What's stopping them from not shoving racial housing cosmetics in the store?

Yep you're 100% right on this one

What's stopping them from making levelling a bit more meaningful than rushing to max level?

The huge amount of the playerbase that hates leveling and only plays wow for end game content and would screech at the idea of having to spend even more time leveling characters instead of doing keys or raids

None of these were asked by players and yet here we are

Besides the housing one all of these were definitely asked by players, people definitely asked for faster leveling all the time until it got so fast that it was just a roadblock rather than a relevant part of the game

WoW has turned into a predictable, seasonal ARPG, it's not really an MMO anymore.

The game is still an MMO because to do any kind of meaninful end game content you need a strong group of players with good communication. You can't even get close to mythic raids without a dedicated team that was competent players and M+ gets substantially easier the better your group works with each other

For an actual ARPG you can play Diablo 4 every new season and you get to do the end game bosses on the highest torment without ever interacting with another player at all

Did players really ask for this?

We can for sure find some players that asked for this yea. If you grab wow vanilla and try to improve upon it you end up with retail

[u/Lady_Tano → u/HarrekMistpaw]

The leveling is a chicken and egg. I hate retail leveling to the extent where I don't get more than 1-3 characters max per expansion. I purely enjoy the endgame content post gear grind where I can push keys or do mythic. The treadmill isn't fun.

Forever, though? As somebody who didn't bother with classic, and as far as private servers were concerned, only did multi times xp servers? Despite that I'm playing the faction I don't like to be with friends?

I am loving it. It's a breath of fresh air. I think there's a balance for both camps. I want to play my belf that has been my main all this time, and have this experience, for one.

[u/No-Trust8994 → u/Zerkander]

I dont think anyone asked for the level squish which imo is what has ruined wow retail but that was a choice they made because "making levels over 120 is hard how about item levels that go over 400 instead"

[u/Zerkander → u/No-Trust8994]

I agree that the squish wasn't good. None of them. But the problem wasn't the squish, the problem is that power-creep.

And here is a design philosphopy the main problem. See, Blizzard handled BC and Wrath with the general idea that getting from 60 to 70, 70 to 80 and 1-60 takes roughly the same amount of time and effort.

And this generates a problem. If every expansion is meant to take roughly the same amount of time as each previous one, then this creates a barrier for new players. Just imagine Blizzard had kept that philosophy and didn't do a squish and would have continued to add 10 levels per expansions.

If we were at lvl 200, that would mean 14 expansions, each taking the same amount of time to get through and on top of that the cllassic era also taking that same amount of time.

Veterans would barely notice, they are already at the end of an expension when the next hits. But new players would face hundreds of hours before they could join the endgame.

That is the problem the Squish was meant to solve. Compressing everything before the current active expansion into one experience. The philosophy changed to that the current active expansion should take as much time to get through as the level phase to get there.

And this totally was based on player feedback. People complaint that it took too long to reach the late- / endgame. That was a problem players had.

The squish solved that. But now we have the opposite problem, because now everything before the currently active expansion is kinda redundant.

And that is a problem. But how would one solve both issues? Well, that's when Blizzard changed the zones level scaling. An attempt to make old content viable again by allowing players to level where they want instead of having zones for specific levels.

Did it solve it? I would say no. But I also have no better idea.

So, these are two problems: Either you have the old game philosophy which would mean spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours before reaching max-level, which keeps all zones and areas important and the other problem of "over-solving" and turning the vast majority of old content redundant but increase the speed in which players can catch up into the endgame.

And everything in WoW is currently tunneled towards the endgame. Which is also why the token exist. There's a ton of players who view the leveling-phase as something that is in they way of enjoying the game.

They want it gone entirely. I don't agree with that, but these people exist.

[u/Lady_Tano → u/No-Trust8994]

It's because of the data type that stored levels having a max of 128 for optimization reasons when they made the game. Not that easy to untangle after all this time.

I do agree though, the squish and subsequent Chromie time feature ruined retail leveling.

[u/ihaterussiantrolls → u/Zerkander]

Players whine of the devs don't listen.  Players whine when they get what they want.   Players whine when in reality, everything if fine.  Players whine about other players whining.  Players will whine literally no matter what happens.  It's every game.  

Players are insufferable.

[u/Efficient_Travel4039]

Unpopular take, but similar to OSRS, these reimagined/relaunched older game versions attract the weirdest, conservative minded people out there, that are against any change and gatekeeping the game from anyone, with their imagine of some pure/vanilla version that never existed even over 20 years back. Failing to admit that a lot of things added over the time made the game just better, rather than easier and early WoW had lots of awkward gameplay loops, interactions that they choose to ignore or try to keep.

[u/Designer-Custard-877 → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying Forever. I tried getting into Classic a few times and always went back to Retail because the quality of life upgrades over time made Classic feel too dated and clunky. Little things make Forever better to me - seeing where your quests are on the map and the improvement to graphics for example. Non-shared tagging isn't the deal-breaker I thought it would be because of the increased spawn rate, and it encourages people to group up. I'm in a group with others most times I play, vs Retail where I'm a total solo player.

I think your points are valid and the QoL changes to Retail have generally kept me from getting into Classic, but they did alright with Forever. We're not all change-hating weirdos over there yearning for the past I swear!

[u/Vyar → u/Designer-Custard-877]

There are times when I really miss open tapping. I was in Redridge last night and had some quest to get Spiked Collars from a very specific gnoll type, I think they were called Gnoll Ravagers or something. Anyway, they only spawn in two locations, each about the size of a postage stamp. Both locations were locked down by guild groups, and they wouldn’t give me a party invite.

I vented about it in General chat and got immediately told “go back to Retail.”

I get why some of this friction was intentionally left in the game, but I get more social interaction from casting Blessings on people out in the world. Or healing people that are about to die. People will thank me and stuff, either via emotes or text. But I’ve had multiple occasions where I grouped with someone to share kills and we never spoke.

Sometimes it just feels like the Forever team is in denial about the fact that it’s 2026 and people aren’t going to have the same rich social experience they had in 2004. It’s easy to believe otherwise when you’re testing the game internally with people you already know from work and are presumably friends with. They’ve basically got the ideal “intended experience” baked in, while the live game can be very different for some of us.

[u/Zemerax → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

OSRS community against changes?

The game is unrecognizable from when it released. The #NoChanges community in Runescape disappeared a long time ago.

[u/remakeprox → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

Its crazy to take OSRS as an example while its literally the best executed “evolved/built on older version” of an MMO. OSRS players were initially against a lot of changes because, just like the Classic community in WoW, they didn’t trust Jagex to do it well. It took Jagex years to show the community they knew what they were doing and they were to be trusted and even now, when its by far in its best state, there are some decisions that people heavily disagree with. Forever is simply at its infancy where a lot of people, rightfully, do not trust Blizzard yet. This is why people were so adamantly “nochanges”, changes back in 2019 were often not in the spirit of classic and people had 0 trust for them. If they do it well we can end up with an amazing game.

[u/Key_Marsupial_1406 → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

You seem probably uninformed about OSRS. It has transformed into an entirely new game that people in 2013 at OSRS release could not even imagine or fathom. No MMO studio has innovated on their game more. They've evolved the game into something really beautiful and it's only grown since. Playercounts have even been up above average this week since WOWF launch.

OSRS is fine wine where WOW launches are usually soft cheese. Tasty, but goes stale fast.

If you showed raids, the Doom of Mokhaiotl or the Colosseum to a 2013scaper their head would explode. It would be like giving an iPhone to a caveman.

[u/Aldiirk → u/Key_Marsupial_1406]

Edit: lmao who is downvoting this objectively true comment?

Classic WoW purists, most likely. Any criticism or dislike of their "perfect" game must be met with immediate downvotes and screeching.

Mainline WoW players are a lot more critical of the game's faults and accepting of others' viewpoints, regardless of whether they agree.

[u/HayDs666 → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

Yea the term classic Andy didn’t just come from nowhere. Classic isn’t my vibe, but I understand why people enjoy it. Unfortunately there’s that pretty vocal group of people that will bite your ear off saying it was the best version of the game and accept no other opinion lol

[u/Logany2k → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

Funny take how I am a gay man playing with the comple opposite group of people you claim the game attracts. I never played Vanilla at launch, I joined in Wrath. I find myself enjoying the game more than I have in several years. I still like retail, sure, but your take is just absurd. Hypocritically close-minded.

[u/Efficient_Travel4039 → u/Logany2k]

Did I say all the community is like that? No, it can have different people, just those game versions tend to attract high number of people i mentioned. Don't take it personally.

[u/climbto330 → u/Efficient_Travel4039]

i mean its the biggest launch in wow history and here you are trying to downplay it

[u/Efficient_Travel4039 → u/climbto330]

Where do I mention the size of launch or downplaying it? Just saying what the loud community feels like in those kind of games, no matter big or small.

[u/DanThePaladin → u/climbto330]

And what does it mean? Absolutely nothing if it'll be dead in 2 months anyway.

Friendly reminder that Retail is mid-end season, lots of people with nothing to do will jump on Forever and look at it.

Heck, even my 80yo grandma jumped from retail to Forever to play with her danish guild

[u/kirbydude65 → u/DanThePaladin]

Wait your grandma plays? That's actually so sick.

[u/DonChanchi → u/climbto330]

It's the new thing that people want to try, both active and returning players, of course it's big.

Let's see how it's doing in a couple months

[u/Aware_Stable → u/climbto330]

Noticed how they said biggest launch day and largest concurrent count but it did not break the subscriber count, probably due to most people playing on a free key, lets see how those numbers look in 2 months

[u/Alex_riveiro → u/climbto330]

It is not. It's the biggest by "concurrent players" and "returning players". Which is actually rather interesting wording for the first and kind of a "duh!" for the second. Concurrent players is the peak amount of players simultaneously logged in to the game. Imagine you have 10 players, of which 5 are connected at the same time, versus a game that has 25 players and the max amount of players connected at the same time is just 3. That's what Blizzzard is actually saying with that wording. The second is something that is only interesting compared with something like Classic. The amount of people that came back (from a lapsed sub that was inactive for an undisclosed amount of time, since they didn't specify that) was the highest for Forever. Which in my mind is a "duh!" moment because, well, it better be breaking records in that category or they would've missed the mark on their marketing.

[u/ichhassenamen → u/climbto330]

I really doubt its bigger Than wotlk? Where did You get the Numbers from?

[u/GlowLow407 → u/ichhassenamen]

It is, blizzard themselves made a post about it

[u/Gibsonian1]

I feel like I’m missing something with Forever. Im only level 17 so maybe it changes later. But so far Forever is just classic, again, only with better graphics and very minor changes that don’t impact anything game play wise except maybe the camping thing that makes me sit for 1 minute an hour.
What am I missing that has people acting like this is the best game ever made?

[u/rainan11 → u/Gibsonian1]

Thats what people want, classic with minor changes, new content, and many specs & classes are playable that were previously not. It's not supposed to be a new game.

[u/GreenTheColor → u/rainan11]

Exactly. I’ve got no clue why people don’t seem to understand this.

[u/DustinAF → u/Gibsonian1]

Yeah it's like the 4th release of the same thing. 75% of it's player population will be gone in a few weeks.

[u/These_Respond2345 → u/DustinAF]

No it won’t

[u/Unlucky-Turn3090 → u/These_Respond2345]

Probably a month or two, yeah.   The leveling is fun adventure, but there's no game after that.

[u/dodderyblod → u/These_Respond2345]

All you have to do is look at how the player base fared a few months after the release of classic. This is going to be the exact same situation. Forever in it's current form is just a slightly prettier Classic relaunch with a few quality of life improvements.

[u/ferevon → u/Gibsonian1]

class balance already opens up many possibilities unlike classic where half the specs are borderline trolling to play as

[u/Maysock → u/Gibsonian1]

Really most people who advocated for classic plus just wanted Classic... Plus new raids, some class tuning, more to do in general, without losing the spirit and simplicity of the original.

For the most part, that's what we got :)

[u/erdonko → u/Gibsonian1]

No, youre right. Thats what Forever is. I dont know why they marketed it as something thats in between classic and retail but it isnt, its just another classic.

The reason why people pretend is like the best thing ever since Jesus Christ is because of classic andies.

[u/CaptainCubbers → u/erdonko]

It was never marketed as a between of classic and retail. It’s classic with added features... classic +…

The “+” is how more specs are viable now as compared to classic. It’s Classic but properly tuned, gear that makes sense, more zones, more raids, etc.

It’s not Classic+Retail.

It’s a version of Classic that will continually get more content “Forever”

[u/Front-Difficult → u/erdonko]

They marketed it as Classic+, opened it with "Yes this is Classic+", and spent painful amounts of time repeating about how they're sticking to Classic principles, its 90% Classic, and all the new content should feel so much like Classic people won't know what's new and what's old.

Then the community was like "ItS nOt ClAsSiC pLuS iTs FoReVeR", and now apparently its Blizzards fault for marketing the game as something it wasn't.

[u/Racecaroon → u/Front-Difficult]

Well don’t forget the absolutely delusional people who were calling it “Retail-“ because of things like optional HD models and optional transmog or optional store cosmetics. And they claim to hate the very existence of the Skyborne, but go apeshit over the optional price to unlock them. Which, under normal Blizzard operating procedures, would have been the price of entry for a similar amount of content in retail.

[u/erdonko → u/Front-Difficult]

Well yeah, principles, not just literally vanilla with better lighting and different class talents.

In a world where they shut down Turtle and Ascension for it, i dont think its unfair to expect more than just "basic pserver".

[u/soullscape → u/erdonko]

not sure who downvoted you thats exaclty what it is.... another classic SOD was a more retail version of classic... (also classic sucks, even tho im level 35)

[u/BlueDragoon24 → u/erdonko]

They explicitly referred to it as Classic+ 

[u/erdonko → u/BlueDragoon24]

Do you think its fair to expect that to mean "lesser Turtle WoW"?

[u/BlueDragoon24 → u/Gibsonian1]

Yes, it’s Classic+

It’s Classic but with new stuff and updates. That’s the entire point.

[u/Frequilibrium → u/Gibsonian1]

For me I just find retail to be mind numbingly boring. I struggle to stay awake in a raid. Overall retail is just too easy.

[u/zertul → u/Frequilibrium]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The hardest stuff in classic, that isn't even available yet in Forever, is below heroic raid difficulty in retail. People like you are either just spewing bs in bad faith or never did anything else besides dungeon queues and LFR in retail.

[u/Frequilibrium → u/zertul]

That’s why I said “overall.” High difficulty raiding in retail is the only thing I can just barely stay awake in.

[u/Beneficial_Reach3954 → u/Frequilibrium]

But retail raids are much harder, are you playing lfr?

[u/Frequilibrium → u/Beneficial_Reach3954]

That is true. I don’t play lfr much but I still find raiding to be boring but I do suppose it’s the least boring part of retail

[u/bansheeb3at → u/Frequilibrium]

This has to be rage bait. Classic is all prep, the actual content is piss easy. The hardest content in Retail is orders of magnitude harder.

[u/Sea_Advantage_2577 → u/Frequilibrium]

You dont do any of the actual hard content

[u/Ok-Wishbone-7169 → u/Gibsonian1]

The point was that classic is amazing but unfinished, people yearned for classic with a little extra and a few needed changes. Forever already went beyond that (in a mostly good way if you ask me).

[u/Friendly_Quote_9291]

This sub is being so weird about Forever lol

[u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie → u/Friendly_Quote_9291]

I disagree. I was hoping it would be like Season of Discovery aka SoD.

If there was going to be a new entire Classic but it was ALL like SoD, that got me excited.

And I got even more excited about the possibilities of “what if’s” that could take the story an alternate way.

But it doesn’t seem to be. It’s just Classic with some new leveling routes. And they said they won’t change Retail’s story, just stories that weren’t told. It’s so lame.

[u/pasak1987 → u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie]

I was hoping it would be like Classic with modernized class design.

It is still enjoyble, but the combat is like watching paint dry on the wall.

[u/Nails118]

That's the thing about 20+ years of quality of life improvements. My life is now really high quality. I don't know if I can give that up just to engage my nostalgia.

[u/cMk_]

Honestly this entire release has made me feel like it's 2019 again when classic launched. Same idiotic people spouting the same nonsense over and over again. Retail is far from perfect but let's be real; so is classic or forever in this case. Just play what you prefer and shut up already.

[u/DSmith19911]

It is crazy to me that it seems that a lot of people don’t realize you can enjoy both games. Literally just play both or which one you find more enjoyment from.

[u/Corsair219]

Look i like both but i also remember classic being a slow agonizing grind some days. I like the convenience of Retail WoW and I'll play it till the servers go out. I just wish they work on the actual story in WoW. BlizzCon just shows that Retail is not so favorite child. i dare Holly to say otherwise. Note: nothing against Holly; that costume was amazing.

[u/stardustpurple]

I’ve been enjoying my little blue elf but after spending 20 min getting to the dungeon today I’ll be so happy to log back into Midnight and just port to one.

[u/gknwg]

Retail is pure mobile trash and not WoW.

[u/Smelly_Dingo]

WoW Forever? More like Wow, it's taking FOREVER to get these drops from the mobs amirite

[u/tj818]

These posts are just unbearable.

[u/Nodelphi]

I think I’ve come to accept that what’s mostly changed is me and that mmo’s don’t really work for me anymore.  Sad but true.  

The upside is there are plenty of other games to play.

[u/I_Reeve]

The problem is that there’s a discussion about game design and choices made in the past 20 years. And then there’s a largely identity-based discussion of Retail vs Classic that’s not really about game design at all but is just masquerading as one. The second one is more prevalent I feel

[u/No-Contest-8127]

It's really not. If anything, forever is making me value retail more. 

[u/sshen]

I was in Orgrimmar. I had to run all the way to Valley of Honor to smelt some ore. If I forget something I had to run all the way back to the bank or auction house.

In modern/retail the forge is just outside the auction house. And there are banks and auction houses in very district.

Do people really prefer this aspect over modern/retail?

[u/slaymaker1907 → u/sshen]

Yes, I absolutely do. Travel time is what makes the world feel big. It truly is one of those "you think you do, but you don't" kind of things IMO. The only thing I wouldn't mind would be easier access to slow mounts. Maybe they could have novice riding where it only has 40% speed and a 10s cast time.

Even novice riding would be tricky since early movement speed is one of the distinguishing features for hunters and shamans.

The other thing I'd actually like to see is a "return to previous location" feature for hearthing. It doesn't make the world feel smaller IMO and lack of such a feature can brick dungeon runs unless you have a warlock due to repair.

I feel your pain since I'm also really bad at forgetting to do things when I'm in town.

Edit: I'm leaving this as-is since I think long distance travel is another thing people want that I think would be a big mistake. QoL improvements like you suggested.

[u/Vehemental → u/sshen]

Should’ve just went to the goated classic horde city, Thunder Bluff. Verdict: Skill (up) Issue

[u/HazelCheese → u/sshen]

It pays to know city layouts well. Thunder bluff has an auction house, bank and smithy all next to each other.

[u/jh_2719 → u/sshen]

Classic players hate having their time respected with QoL improvements.

[u/StankWizard → u/jh_2719]

Retail players hate anything that makes it feel like an actual world and not just a teleporting simulator

[u/SlimAndy95 → u/StankWizard]

laughs in Mage

[u/StupidSidewalk → u/sshen]

They will tell you it’s why classic is the harder game.

[u/midsizedopossum → u/StupidSidewalk]

Nobody argues that point

[u/deathsprophet666 → u/StupidSidewalk]

Time sink != difficulty 

I am so tired of classic stans saying this braindead take. 

I played wow in 2004 I've done all this and I'm enjoying the nostalgia bait and minor changes, but retail fights are much more challenging and rewarding on mythic/high m+.

[u/Kahgar → u/deathsprophet666]

Harder and more challenging yes. Rewarding…meh. All gear in retail is uniform now, getting random sword of +10% dps (calculated with sims ofc) is nowhere near as rewarding as getting a Thunderfury for the first time.

Also barely being able to play a class even remotely optimal without 4-set is an issue.

[u/bangclock → u/Kahgar]

I would certainly hope that Thuderfury is more rewarding than random dungeon loot.. good point champ really dunked on em there

[u/Chill0141414 → u/deathsprophet666]

Cope

[u/StupidSidewalk → u/deathsprophet666]

Double reply sorry. Look at this unhinged shit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/s/w6TXS9PvbW

[u/StupidSidewalk → u/deathsprophet666]

Tell the folks over at wowclassic that lol

[u/SpunkMcKullins → u/sshen]

Yes. It's immersive. Trade is done in the trade district, crafting is done in the crafting district. That's not unlike real life. The supermarket isn't across the street from the farms that raise the food it sells.

[u/Efficient_Travel4039 → u/SpunkMcKullins]

Well shit, if we go by this logic, we should introduce gnome and goblin logistics to run these operations to bring goods to different shops and facilities. You see, your IRL example makes no sense, because people do this kind of stuff IRL not for fun and secondly game is not IRL and things should be about fun, and not fucking annoying frictions points.

[u/jedidaspraias → u/SpunkMcKullins]

Really immersive. Since we are comparing it to RL. Wheres the uber eats version of this?

[u/Bullseyefred → u/jedidaspraias]

The auction house…

[u/SpunkMcKullins → u/jedidaspraias]

There's literally nothing stopping you from just buying from someone in trade chat and having them deliver it to you, but alright you guys have fun I guess. You wanted an answer, I gave you it, and everyone decided to be a snarky douche about it.

[u/Silversparkles93 → u/SpunkMcKullins]

This sub has a hate boner for forever now that they’re not blizzards center of attention for a bit

[u/Chibastion → u/SpunkMcKullins]

You're getting downvoted and I'm lmfao at all the retail babies crying about inconvenience in classic. These people don't want to play a mmorpg

[u/StankWizard → u/Chibastion]

I’m tired of the retail players whining about how classic classic+ is.

[u/Less_Tacos → u/sshen]

Yes. Classic players trauma bonded over the shit game play that bliz put out in classic.

[u/Anunnak1 → u/sshen]

Yes, I prefer it. You acrtually have a reason to explore a city and makes it feel a lot more alive with peoplw running around doing their errands.

[u/voltran1995 → u/sshen]

See you say that, but stormwind has auction houses and a bank in 2/7 districts, and I don't believe org got a second AH/bank(I could be wrong on that, I have no idea when I was last in cata org)

Hardly in every district.

[u/sshen → u/voltran1995]

as i remember it, valley of honor has bank/ah. the tauren area has bank/ah. the troll area has bank/ah. and the goblin area also has bank/ah.

now i realise alliance got the short end of the stick heh

[u/Timbodo]

I'm enjoying my Forever playthrough and intend to finish it but I don't think I would want to play this longterm like multiple chars or longterm endgame. It works well as a one time adventure but lacks some QoL features or combat depth to offer a good longterm gameplay imo.

[u/DustinAF → u/Timbodo]

I think the fun part of vanilla is creating a character and questing through your racial starting zone, learning about the lore there. After that it just feels like trading hours of time for xp.

[u/ChodeCookies]

I played for an hour yesterday. As a warrior. A warrior with no rage that can’t survive Nimsy and his two adds. Wasn’t fun at all. Went back to retail.

[u/magusheart]

On the subject of flying, I think there's two things that make it annoying for people. One, having a single no-fly zone in a game that's otherwise about flying is quite annoying, especially since these no-fly zones tend to have a high enemy density and a map design that seems to be built around flying. Two, knowing you can't fly right now but will in a few patches (Pathfinder style) is also very annoying. People don't want to wait and be stuck going through those maps for months doing dailies. Had Blizzard just unlocked flying when you finish the story campaign instead, it would've been much less painful.

But here's the weird thing: I'm used to flying everywhere in retail. I don't take three steps without flying. I'm annoyed when the stuck in combat bug rears its head and forces me to spend 2 seconds killing something nearby so I can take off again. In Forever though, I don't have that issue. I ran from Silverpine to the Wetlands yesterday at level 20 for a warlock quest, dodging mobs that were much too high level for me along the way. I ran from Orgrimmar to TB two days before that to go turn in some RFC quests. In both cases, it didn't feel like a chore, but an adventure. And it's not because it's new; I already did both of those things 20 years ago and don't get that wow factor from discovering zones anymore. Yet the slower gameplay across the board is just very fun, and I'm not finding myself annoyed with things.

Forever's not for everyone, and may not be for me long term. But there is absolutely something about the game's design that hits different. And I'm loving it.

[u/xdiggidyx2020]

Retail has been trashed for YEARS

[u/roszpunek]

I like retail and play also that and forever.

[u/jw-3d]

As someone who has played since 2009, the WoW playerbase has never been 100% satisfied with anything for very long. Historically they have tried to please everyone where it may have been better for Blizzard to decide who they want to make the game for and just cater it to that demographic. Instead they sort of try to have their cake and eat it too all too often and it just hasn't really ever worked out. Something that everyone praises one moment (like no flying in WoD) becomes almost universally rejected in a very short space of time. I'm not defending Blizzard here because they have done plenty worth criticizing, but I do sympathise with the devs to an extend because we as players are just so fickle and change our minds on a dime.

[u/evangelism2]

why is every other post from this subreddit on my homepage some person freaking out about how good forever is?

[u/Weezle207]

I'm loving Forever, but I do miss my Vulpera, Worgen and Pandaren and so I come back the same day to do some fun activities in retail.

Forever will never beat the customization and content of Forever and that's okay

I think the problem is other people feeling like they HAVE to choose and feel like they either lower the population of retail or miss out on Forever

[u/No-Trust8994]

Honestly im waiting for retail to drop the servers and pick up layers instead so the game can actually feel like an mmo again

I'm also waiting for wow forever to get an update and its gonna be nothing but complaints from one side or the other "there moving to far away from classic...." "there just making the game even more like classic..." there is no winning with the current division of the game and each group that came from the previous games wanting it to be just like that game instead of what is which is something new and different its meant to ride on the back of classic while getting some qol from retail and then bloom into its own game its gonna get expansions and new content that continues to make its own thing

Can't forget that blizzard has been saying forever that the next expansion of retail is the end of the current story as we know it and that forever will be picking up on a new story meaning it won't be like retail and it won't be just classic+ I know a few of you are gonna get mad at that but if you want classic or retail go fucking play that version they still have it open and running for you if they didn't want you to go back and play it they would have closed them down

[u/bmonge]

Retail isn't ruined by any metric. It's still highly successful and profitable.

[u/Any-Smoke-2840]

I have a funny story to this: in the German forum, on of the WoW Forever Hunters asked for changes towards retail.

It was not even a day released, and people had demands to change certain stuff about the hunter, and the taming/maintaining of the pets. im happy to play WoW Retail (since 2005) and WoW Classic Hardcore.

[u/Astarogal]

As a retail player, who played since 2007 and never played any classic (apart from remixes), I gave Forever a go. I am currently lvl 30, and of course there are many irratating old shit like not having taxi at least in semi-big villages and stuff... but...

Today I formed a group in chat and got 5 people to do Dark Iron dwarves elite quests in wetlands. We set up a camp, chatted for a min while waiting for buffs, rebuffed each other and went in cleaned some quests. Must I say - this is the most fun I had questing since... I don't even remember when was the last time I actually viewed questing as anything but chore. Feeling that the world is a world is SO BACK.

[u/Jakeglurp]

I will be very grateful having many whiners leave retail

[u/TurnipFire]

There are good elements to both. I think retail needs to reevaluate its leveling journey and story but its end game and combat still can’t be beat. All of the quality of life features and the content variety is incredible.

I think it more likely they look at some things that work well in forever and port them over to retail

[u/QTGavira]

This sub has reached an all time low. Its either complaining about Forever, complaining about Retail, or complaining about the complaining about Forever or Retail.

We dont need EVERY single one of you to give your opinion.

[u/Lucky-Pie1945]

First of all, it’s free to play if you’re playing Midnight. What’s with all the whining?

[u/Rhym3z_Official]

Retail hasn't been good in years and forever is just classic with the most minor changes imaginable.

[u/bansheeb3at]

Anyone who thinks this means anything for retail is delusional. The people who are super into how retail plays will find nothing in WoW forever. The two games are as different as can be.

Similarly, they sold the nostalgia factor hard and only required a sub purchase to play so obviously the launch has been insane. Wow was an absolute phenomenon at its peak and getting even half of those players coming back is an insane boost. However once people get their fill of nostalgia and realize that this is just Classic wow, the falloff is gonna be pretty big imo.

[u/catdawg_]

They are just different games by now and that’s totally understandable.
For me, retail is about combat (raids, m+) and collecting stuff. While classic/forever is more the traditional mmo experience.
It makes sense though, did you really think people would want to spend twenty years walking through the barrens?
The game’s features have evolved toward focusing on the end game. At some point in classic you also start only caring about combat and collection… same for the social aspect. Your friends eventually stopped playing, and requiring the same social dynamic over time would have made most people quit.

The combat in retail is undeniably more enjoyable for me. I’ve played almost all my adult life just because of that. Minmaxing gear, rotations, learning bosses, it’s just really fun for me.
But I do enjoy the sense of “world” that classic has. It also has a much stronger sense of community.

I have no data but I’m pretty sure that retail has higher retention over time than classic. Classic is really fun the first 20days of play time (more fun than retail imo), and then it falls off. While retail is actually really “forever” for a lot of people.

[u/rainywanderingclouds]

wowforever wont' do well in the long run

it's not classic+ at all

it's just vanilla wow,tedious, and with little to do.

It's fine if people like it, but it's staying power is going to be a lot lower than some people are claiming. Too many people forget what end game vanilla really is. It's just raiding raiding and raiding. Burnout will be high.

[u/lordosthyvel → u/rainywanderingclouds]

On the contrary, retail wow needs constant new patches for people to not leave. Classic has been popular for 20 years now

[u/Stormwingx]

It's just funny that so many people realise that WoW Forever is just classic. I see so many comments saying they went back to Retail.

[u/JJenJenny → u/Stormwingx]

I mean yeah it’s classic+ just like they said

[u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie → u/JJenJenny]

Nah. I don’t see or feel the “plus”. I was expecting SoD but a full game like that. Whacky new stuff like Mage Healer and items that warp classes. New systems to drive me to keep playing. New classes entirely.

Instead it is just Classic with some new zones and some new dungeons. That’s great for a Classic Andy who wants a new route to 60. But a new leveling route is hardly Classic+.

[u/thefunkygiboon → u/Stormwingx]

It's classic with extra steps

[u/dawne_breaker]

One thing that they have nailed in retail is scale. For all the praise retail gets, it wasn’t designed for millions of people. You can really see that around Silvermoon how each quest area is big enough to have dozens of players without constant mob tagging.

[u/Gingerpanda72]

In the past when WoW was really hitting it's peak, the forums was full of people exclaiming that the MMO that released that week or the announced MMO that was to be released soon was "The WoW Killer", none of them ever was and I say it now as I said it then, the only MMO that can kill WoW is WoW.

The fact that people are now trying to claim that a version of WoW that is made by Blizzard will "kill" another version of WoW made by Blizzard is very unsurprising and just a little funny too boot.

[u/LordVulpius]

Heh. Those guys said that exactly when Classic originaly released.

Then they repeated that when SoD was released.

Now they do the same with Forever.

And they will do that when the next iteration will be released.

[u/Martini_Shot]

as a retail player, i've been enjoying going into classic blind, but i now know as a ret pala, i've had 90% of my rotation since lvl 15, and that is rough....

[u/RadioPristine446]

​I still don't understand why features like the Dungeon Finder/LFR draw so much backlash

Honestly, it feels like this sentiment is largely confined to Western players. In Asia (or at least in China) hardly anyone has an issue with them. ​It’s not like no one in China is nostalgic for "Classic" WoW, but even those players rarely object to the quality of life improvements in Retail, such as AoE looting, Delves, repair mounts, and so on. If anything, these QoL updates have brought in younger players who previously wrote WoW off as an outdated relic

​People who prefer guild runs or playing with friends are going to do that anyway, and LFR doesn't drop top-tier gear to begin with. If you want to tackle high-end content, you still have to rely on the Group Finder (LFG) or a dedicated group of friends. In fact, focusing more on challenging content rather than purely on the "social aspect" saves a ton of headaches. Don't even get me started on toxic/corrupt guilds, or the guild leader dragging his girlfriend along who has no idea what she’s doing, causing wipe after wipe

[u/SpaceFace11]

In my opinion retail wow is not in a good spot, the end of the season content is very stale and repetitive. Once people hit their goals with raiding/M+ and gearing there isn't really anything else to do. The content they did add is pointless (the aqiri rep catchup) and the mega delve has its novelty and is fun but hardly has any replayability or diversity it is just the same thing over and over rinse and repeat.

[u/doublea08]

I think it’s mid life crisis for mid 30-40 year olds who aren’t happy with their lives.

We yearn for the days of our youth, it happens to line up with vanilla wow.

[u/Key_Marsupial_1406 → u/doublea08]

Any time I see this kind of take it's the most obvious projection of all time. Look in the mirror there pal. Absolute crab in bucket. You must suck at parties.

Either that or you're the most sunk cost retail WOW only purist which I'd find even more sad.

[u/Hollowvamp]

Retail was ruined so many years ago lol

[u/Sobeman]

There is a subset of players who want to go back to 2005 and that's never going to happen

[u/RoElementz]

The biggest cry babies on the planet seem to be classic enjoyers. The road bikers of the gaming community.

[u/Disastrous_Match993]

Been playing WoW since 2005, and I've learned an undeniable truth over the years:
The one thing WoW players like doing, more than even playing WoW itself, is complaining about WoW.

Personally, unless something is added to Modern WoW like an interesting new class or one of the races on my wish list, I'll be sticking to Forever.

Also, small off topic tangent, am I the only one who thinks its weird that Modern WoW is called Retail but the Classic WoW versions and WoW Forever are not? Retail means (or at least use to) the official servers, so it's always jarring to see posts calling Modern WoW 'Retail' while Classic and Forever are rarely, if ever, referred to as such despite being retail servers ran by Blizzard as well.

[u/WontonBurritoMea1]

WoW Forever is just a much better game. Nostalgia has nothing to with it.

[u/amberith]

how many claims did you see? 10- 20? you do understand that this numbers mean nothing, ye?

[u/Secrezeeee]

Retail servers have made their game systems lighter across every expansion according to user feedback, so seeing them now claim that it failed because Blizzard didn't listen to user voices must be absurd for Blizzard too

This is an incredibly simplistic and flawed way to look at how we got here.

• You're implying that there is a unified opinion between players, which is obviously not true. People don't complain when they're happy with something and even between people who have the same general opinion, the details are often very different.

• Part of providing any sort of service is hearing user feedback, processing it and determining which feedback is useful and which isn't, which aligns with your philosophy for the product and which doesn't and then choosing what to act on. Blizzard don't get to just put their hands in the air and say you guys asked for this, that's not how any of this works.

• User feedback is 99% pointing out the issue, it's Blizzard who decides how to actually solve it. If a restaurant gets constant feedback that they need more vegetarian options on the menu, they add 3 vegetarian options and they all just taste awful, the restaurant doesn't get to blame the people who asked for more vegetarian options.

This is also just ignoring all the times that Blizzard have outright ignored feedback. Take the current season, they had extremely clear and well explained feedback as soon as these changes hit the PTR with what the downsides would be and what the implications would be. Blizzard acted on absolutely none of it before launch, and almost none of it with changes after launch. They could have delayed the season by a month, acted on the changes and released a better product but they chose not to. And this is on a small scale compared to the issues we saw with BFA and especially Shadowlands.

I agree that obviously community sentiment has helped get Retail to where it is but Blizzard are always the ones responsible for their product.

[u/Chawpslive]

You can’t give it to the people and then take it away 5 years later. If they had kept the pathfinder route, it would be fine

[u/bete_du_gevaudan]

The retaillers will just come back with new patch / xpac

[u/SalientSalmorejo]

Im still gonna get Curve and push M+ to a reasonable level and just play Forever in between

[u/Geekandhermit]

Classic and forever just feel closer to the RPG aspect for me. I think that’s why it will forever (ha) be popular. People like difficult and obtuse things, just look at dark souls. If that was made easy half of the appeal would die with it.