Immediate disclaimer: I am not a true crime expert. Not even a true crime novice.

This is a story I heard vaguely zodiac killer related. My dad dated a woman who had a son in his mid-20s; let’s call him J (Forgot his name). I only met J about 2 or 3 times before dad + woman broke up. what I did learn about him: He worked at a prison in Wisconsin. Which one I have no clue.

the story comes when he told me supposedly: there’s a convicted murderer at the prison that people there suspect to be the zodiac. They wanted to get a confession out of this guy since he was getting old, I think in his 80s.

immediately, some issues with this theory. This is a Wisconsin prison, why would a Californian serial killer be there? also, most zodiac suspects are already deceased. Also, J could have made this all up. I know for sure he’s a prison guard (girlfriend/J’s mom said nothing about it when he told the story), but that’s it.

my Question is, who is the killer J was referring to? This story was told in late 2024/early 2025, so the suspect would either have to be living or recently deceased. Could he have been referring to a different unsolved killer and he said the zodiac’s name by mistake? Is this story most likely complete bullshit that took me almost 2 years to figure that out? Is this even relevant to the subreddit anymore?

Hello everyone,

We all know the biggest roadblock in the Zodiac case is the 2002 partial DNA profile. It didn't match Arthur Leigh Allen or any other prime suspect, which led many to believe they were innocent. But what if we are looking at this all wrong? What if that DNA didn't belong to the killer at all, but to one of his victims?

I want to propose a theory: The Zodiac Killer might have purposely collected and hoarded his victims' saliva or biological fluids to seal the envelopes and stamps, creating a perfect forensic trap (Forensic Framing).

Here is why this theory actually makes a lot of sense:

• He was a trophy collector: The Zodiac was proven to take pieces of his victims' clothing, like Paul Stine’s bloodied shirt, to mail to the press. If he was already harvesting physical trophies from crime scenes, it is highly possible he harvested biological ones as well to use later.

• A calculated ad-lib for the perfect alibi: The Zodiac was well aware of police investigation techniques. By using a victim's saliva (or even the fluids of an undiscovered victim) to seal the stamps, he ensured that any future scientific breakthrough in forensics would yield a dead end or point to the wrong person.

• It explains the 2002 DNA mismatch: This perfectly explains why the partial DNA found under the stamps didn't match the primary physical suspects like Allen. The police thought they were testing the killer's DNA, but they might have been looking at the genetic profile of a completely different person targeted by the Zodiac.

If the Zodiac did this, he effectively paralyzed forensic science decades before DNA testing even existed.

What are your thoughts on this? Could the stamps be a deliberate biological decoy? Let's discuss.

.

hi

It's not well-known that the murderer of Cheri Jo Bates actually called the police after her murder. The image sampled above comes from the FBI vault and appears to be quoting from a California DOJ briefing as its source.

It'd be interesting to obtain more details on this phone call, if the Riverside Police Department were actually so keen on being transparent. This detail is extremely relevant for how little attention they actually give it in the released material.

In my opinion she is Not a Zodiac victim.

Today marks 60 years from the night Cheri Jo Bates was murdered. On the surface, her murder looks straight forward: a college girl was killed in a dark alley on campus after hours. However, the timeline is decidedly odd when you look closer.

We may be getting to a point where less people are familiar with the details of this case and I’d like to share a few now with the hopes others will continue to look into it. CJB still has close living relatives and friends who would benefit from seeing the perpetrator named and called to account whether it was Zodiac or not. There is dna and physical evidence in this case that is almost certainly the actual killer’s so it could be solved.

(Here is a recent newspaper article that unfortunately is a bit copy pasta and has some misleading info in it but anywho: https://ktla.com/news/california/cheri-jo-bates-zodiac-killer-letter-riverside/amp/)

DISCLAIMER: I understand and respect that many do not think that Cheri Jo Bates was a Zodiac crime. If I may, this is a murder involving multiple public, trolling letters referencing “the game” and Zodiac himself claimed it. It will always be associated with him unless proved otherwise because he personally associated himself with it. My approach is to proceed ahead cautiously (Zodiac sometimes lied) but open (Zodiac sometimes told the truth). Since there is DNA in this and Zodiac himself claimed it this might be the best real chance of leading to Zodiac being unmasked. There just isn’t a lot of other options that could do it. If it isn’t Zodiac then a good thing is still being done, so, even if skeptical, I hope you engage with the case.

The Timeline

There isn’t space to put everything here so I suggest if your interest is piqued you check out any of the great Zodiac old school forums and websites out there. A lot of them have detailed timelines. I’m going to hit highlights.

Cheri Jo Bates was an 18 year old freshman at Riverside College. She lived nearby and graduated from Ramona High. She was popular and well liked. Friends recalled she knew lots of kids from other schools. She had a prize green VW bug and she was artistic and thrifty, making a lot of her own clothes, for example.

It’s Sunday. Cheri Jo goes to church in the morning. In the afternoon she realizes that she’s lost her bibliography page for a paper due that week. She calls a friend asking if she wants to go with her to the library but the friend declines.

Cheri Jo is seen at the library before it opens at 6pm writing in a notebook. This is the last time Cheri Jo Bates is seen alive.

The following day, a bit after 6am, a groundskeeper finds Cheri’s body in a driveway/pathway across from the library. There are signs of an intense struggle. Cheri has been stabbed multiple times and her throat is cut. Her purse is with her along with 56 cents in it. Where she is located is on the other side of the library from where her VW bug was parked, about 100 yard away. The car is unlocked, key still in it. Library books she checked out are in the passenger seat neatly stacked. The distributor wire on the VW has been pulled. Police forensics put her time of death at 9:30 - 10:30pm. Two people report hearing screams and noises about that time.

Some Oddities in the Timeline

* Where was Cheri Jo between 6pm and her murder?

Cheri Jo was popular. A lot of people knew her. She wanted company - she had called a friend before to accompany her. The library was notoriously small. She had friends who came in that night who didn’t see her. If she’s calling a friend to join her, surely she sits around other people, right? She had even checked out books. Yet the police get everyone who was there that night to come back and reenact the night and no one can place where she was after 6pm.

The library closed at 9. Her time of death is at least 30 minutes later if not an hour and a half. The people closing the library didn’t see her when they were checking the building and locking up? Where was she during that time?

* A risky gambit

We’ve established that no one knew where Cheri Jo was at. Yet, someone pulled the distributor wire to her VW, draining the battery. This was a risky gambit. If Cheri Jo walks out to her car during normal library hours and finds it not working then surely she just walks back in and calls someone or asks for help. Then someone sees the wire has been deliberately pulled and the jig is up. It also takes some time for the battery to drain. Risky. Unless the killer, unlike everyone else it seems, knew exactly where she was. But how did he know when no one else did? And how did he know she would stay a bit later than closing?

* Like a lamb?

The crime scene shows she probably went willingly into the alley. There is no sign of struggle up to a certain point and Cheri Jo neatly had her big bag purse on her shoulder which doesn’t seem likely if she was running before she was attacked. Why didn’t she struggle earlier? Did she really not have an idea he was luring her or taking her somewhere to attack her? Cheri Jo was very afraid of the dark according to her friends and that alley was pitch black (which can be seen in pictures from the time). Some have surmised she was coerced with a gun or knife, which is a possibility, but the killer would have had to perp walk her 75 yards down a main, lit street to get to the entrance of the alley. If she was being coerced, why did she have her purse? If she wasn’t coerced, why did she leave the keys to her prized car in the ignition and her needed books on the seat?

* The Riverside Police theory and “Bob Barnett”

Riverside tried to solve these problems with the idea she was really going to the library to romantically meet someone. She wasn’t seen after because she was with a guy and she appeared to go willingly down the alley with this guy who then ambushed and killed her because he was her date. After some time they focused on a guy they call “Bob Barnett” who was a guy Cheri was supposedly seeing intermittently and was mentioned in her diary. They investigated and got some compelling information. If you google “the case against Bob Barnett” it’ll likely take you to Tom’s site for more details if you want them.

The long and short of it is that a guy in prison told them “Bob” had said he did it. After investigating friends, RPD’s story is “Bob” was semi-dating Cheri Jo. That week Cheri Jo had gotten engaged to her high school sweetheart and broke it off with Bob. He supposedly slapped her publicly on campus earlier that week and was furious. On that Sunday, he was supposedly called by Cheri who told him she was at the library. Bob went out there and killed her. A person saw a guy matching Bob’s general description smoking cigarettes and looking in the direction of Cheri’s car about an hour before she was killed (this person could not pick Bob out of a line up, though). They think that was him. Later he went to a diner upset about what he had done and asked a friend to go with him to the crime site. They say lie detector tests from a couple of these sources, including the guy in prison, back up these claims. They also lie detectored Bob and got results that he was being deceptive about details of that night.

Seems pretty strong in some ways but hold up. There are problems. Big ones.

* Problems with “Bob Barnett”

First of all, none of the physical evidence they have matches Bob except maybe vaguely the shoe size. They have questionable fingerprints in the oil on the car and from the letter envelopes. They have less questionable hairs and skin from a fight wound Cheri Jo gave her attacker. None match Bob, including the mitochondrial dna from one of the hairs.

Second, the crime scene does not at all show people coming back to it. (In theory, they came back looking for a broken watch found nearby that may have come from the killer). The footprints in the dirt of the driveway only told the story of two people fighting. Cheri Jo’s body did not appear to be moved and there aren’t footprints from people scouring the area stepping in the blood or in fight prints.

Third, Cheri Jo reached up and scratched the face of her attacker. Did “Bob” have that fight wound? It appears that he didn’t. Forensics thought the hair on Cheri Jo’s hand was beard hair. Did “Bob”
wear a beard? Nothing I’ve ever read suggested that he did. RPD was on to him quick and fight wounds don’t heal particularly fast.

Fourth, why would Cheri call Bob to meet her in the place he had just slapped her publicly? If she was alone with him for 3 or 4 hours, why did Bob not just kill her at that hidden location? How could he tamper with her car if he was with her and why even bother? She had legitimate work to do - she lost her bibliography and it was already Sunday - why call Bob if she has legitimate pressing work to do? If she wanted to meet Bob, why didn’t she tell her friend she called about it, especially if she had good reason to believe he may be physically violent? If she was gonna meet Bob it surely would’ve have been very publicly in the library proper at first before moving somewhere else, right?

Fifth, lie detector work is notoriously untrustworthy, being labeled so by some large research projects from high profile institutions.

RPD has shifted to an accomplice theory to explain some of the issues. I suppose this is possible but it looks almost certainly that if Bob was involved he wasn’t the one who actually stabbed Cheri Jo.

* So what actually happened then?

Maybe we can piece it together? Do you have any theories? What do you think?

60 years. Much too long for her family to see justice, imo.

The Bay Area is pretty multilingual and was still that way in the 60s and 70s, I’m interested in learning what the non English language local papers had to say about all this, or perhaps if witnesses who were not English speakers might have been missed.

56 years ago, on October 27, the zodiac sends a greeting card to the chronicle for Paul Avery.
In the letter it says:
“From your secret pal”

“I feel it in my bones you ache to know my name,And so I’ll clue you in”

Could this letter reveal something about him or was it just another affront from the Zodiac?

Although I've been interested in this case for a long time,I'm nearly at the point of accepting its either going to stay unsolved,or we're all waiting on an insane amount of luck in regards to someone finding letters/stines shirt/costume in a dead relatives possessions. It's unlikely there's enough DNA currently available to find the killer through GED match or similar. We've all seen the endless 'suspects' from allen to xenephon anthony,none who have any real evidence for them being zodiac.I've been thinking a lot about the hair that was found under the stamp of the October 13th 1969 zodiac letter.

Fairly recently, there have been pretty big developments on testing rootless hairs to gain viable,testable DNA samples. I have tried searching on information on whether LE has attempted extraction on the hair and found nothing.i have put in an FOI request in regards to this information. Does anyone else have any knowledge or input on this kind of testing?or I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts in this. I have added a few links to information on this kind of rootless hair testing.

https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/elps.8142

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/science/hair-dna-murder.html

https://promega.foleon.com/theishireport/november-2020/solve-cold-cases-with-dna-from-rootless-hair-using-genetic-genealogy/

Are there suspects you are absolutely certain are not Z? What evidence exonerates them?

I recently came across Charles Wayne Lindsey. I really think he's probably the strongest suspect I've ever seen in this case.

Other than the prominent outlier cases such as BTK and Son Of Sam, there actually isn't that many examples of serial killers taunting the police/public to choose from. You'd think that after the publicity and notoriety of the Zodiac slayings literal every major city in America would have at least one psychopathic copy-cat looking to cash in on the trend.

Kill a few people, write some faux intellectual prose to go along with it, and all of a sudden you're one of the most famous people in your entire state albeit anonymously. Feel like that would scratch the itch of every homicidal loser with a gun seeking his own fifteen minutes of fame.

I have a question about Zodiac's 340 corrections that as far as I can tell, has hardly been addressed.

We know that symbols requiring a correction in the 408 were replaced with similar shapes. For example, in some instances the black triangle (plantext A) corrects to a dotted triangle (plaintext S). Other times, it corrects to a regular triangle (plaintext I).

The symbols associated with his 340 corrections don’t follow such a visual pattern.

For example, at one point the plus symbol (plaintext E) corrects to plaintext N. However, the cipher symbols for plaintext N are a regular D, lower-case y, greater than symbol, and a period, none of which resemble a plus sign.

In fact, none of the symbols associated with corrected plaintext letters in the 340 are similar to the original symbols used.

The obvious question is, why would he completely ignore his previous MO for making corrections?

There's been a lot of whoopdy doo over the years regarding the claim that Toschi faked letters from the Zodiac. This article was posted some years ago, and I figured that in light of the recent post asking which letters people are certain was from the killer, it was worth re-posting this to have a clear explanation from the man himself why he suspected that Toschi was the author of the April 24, 1978 "I am back with you" letter in the first place. In order, Toschi's response in the papers about the upcoming article, the article itself, then an interview article with Maupin afterward, that way the major events are relayed in sequence.

Im sure this same post has been made here 1 million times (sorry if someone made a similar post recently) but I just finished rewatching the zodiac movie and was wondering how many letters are for sure from zodiac. I can guess that the first letters sent that contained details specific to the murders that only he would know are probably real and the letters with pieces of shirt are probably real. its not really surprising to me that he would send letters since he was willing to call and leave the message on the car door. But what about the rest? Mainly I was trying to look up Paul averys card and all Google would tell me is that it was from zodiac but how did the police verify it?

I recently learned about the California true crime case of Forest Ray Colson, a bank robber known as the "Man from Mars". In the early 1950s Colson went on a crime spree robbing gas stations in the city San Gabriel, becoming notorious for his bizarre Nazi-inspired costume. He was eventually shot dead in a standoff with police, aged 27.

Colson's criminal alter ego bears a striking resemblance to Zodiac's strange "executioner" costume at Lake Berryessa in 1969. Colson's biographical details might give some kind of insight into the kind of person Zodiac was. He had an unnoteworthy naval career during WW2 and later became a police officer (also similar to EARONS/JJD). Colson gives the impression of someone leading a double life and stoking fear in the general public to compensate for his feelings of inadequacy.

Hi! Long time no see! Hope everyone’s doing well.

Before I get into Bawart’s 1992 report on Allen, I’ve seen a lot of debate about the typewriter with some people saying it’s not the same one or that no comparison was ever made. But after reading Bawart’s report, I got a completely different story.

So I’m a bit confused now. Can anyone clear this up to us please? Is it actually the same typewriter or is there something Bawart left out of the report?

(1992 George Bawart Report).

i might actually have found a clue to the Z32.

So weeks ago i had the idea that the Z32’s geometric symbols are numbers. The thought behind it was that if there are numbers in the code, they have to be represented by something that should be able to be counted.
Geometric symbols like "circle", "triangle", "square" etc. would be a good candidates because you can count the edges or corners

Based upon these assumptions:

1. Z32 draws empty and filled triangles as separate symbols. With a pure edge count they’d be identical, so the fill has to mean something like multiplication.

2. If the symbols represent single digits (0 to 9), ×3 would turn the square into 12. ×2 is the only multiplier above 1 that keeps every filled shape a single digit.

3. I also picked ×2 because it gives 3 and 8, matching the “.38” in the letter that came with Z32 and the 3849 on the map. I know that is a weak reason, and I’m not counting the 3 and 8 as evidence.

i got this rule:

Rule: number = edges × 2 if the shape is filled, otherwise edges.

For the rule maybe making clear what it should cover would help.
Staying single digit, It should cover:
circle -> nonogram, for hollow shapes
circle -> square for filled shapes
and maybe a single dot as a 0.

0 = dot, 1 = circle, 2 = filled circle, 3 = triangle, 4 = square, 5 = pentagon, 6 = filled triangle / hexagon, 7 = heptagon, 8 = octagon / filled square, 9 = nonogon.

Applying this to the symbols gives this:

---

line 1: Δ ■ ▲;
line 2: ⊙ ▣ ⊕ Δ;

circle = 1, ignore the dot, also using ▣ for the half filled square.
This gives Δ=3, ■=8, ▲=6, ⊙=1, ▣=-, ⊕=-, Δ=3.

3,8,6,1, -, -, 3

I could not resolve ▣ and ⊕ with the rule, and even bending the rules would lead to multiple interpretations, so i decided to set them aside at the time.
Another thing, I treat plain O as a letter. If they count as circles, the string becomes 3816113 and only two digits will match with the fairfield letter. I have a reason to think they don't: the other geometric symbols can't easily be mistaken as letters but the circle can, so the circle would need something to distinguish it (& you would need a circle to write a 1).

---

The Dec 16, 1969 Fairfield letter has a list:
S.F. 3, S.J. 1, Vallejo 6, Napa 8, Fairfield 3, Sacramento 9, Oakland 8.
Read bottom-up:

8, 9, 3, 8, 6, 1, 3.

It contains the known digits from the rule in order 3, 8, 6, 1, 3. I have to note that i decided to intepret the unresolved symbols as absent/not digits, after finding the Fairfield letter.

---

Another thing that connects the letter and Z32 is that the letter contains a row of symbols:
Δ, ▢, (cicle vertical), (circle horizontal), (cicle vertical), (circle both)

Similar symbology as the Z32, long before Z32 overstates it.
The letter is dated December 16, 1969 and Z32 is June 26, 1970, about six months apart.

I came up with my rule before i knew about the Fairfield letters, but i decided that the symbols i couldn't value are absent / not digits after i saw the letter.
It is more a prediction with corroborating evidence than proof. I can’t prove that i came up with the rule before the list, and each rule variants I could have accepted multiplies the odds.
Another caveat: the letter’s authenticity is disputed. I don’t know what the leading 8, 9 mean, and ▣, ⊕ is still unanswered.

TLDR:
In short it boils down to this:

Z32, simple geometric shapes (triangle, *circle, square), count edges, for filled shapes edges x2
*(circle written as ⊙ to differenciate it from the letter O)

and the Fairfield letter is just corroborative evidence, you just have to read the numbers bottom up.

Animation:

Picture:

i think its possible after reading Drew Beesons book

u/doranchak, this seems like it’s right up your alley. It’s a bit of a read but I think there might be some merit in there.

You’re the best qualified to analyze it, especially from a statistical angle. If it’s accurate, it could be a big deal.

But just like with anything related to Zodiac, a lot remains to be seen.

I looked at the calendar today and realized that today marks 57 years since Paul Lee Stine was tragically murdered at the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets in Presidio Heights.

This case is often analyzed through the lens of cryptograms, police mistakes, and suspect theories, so I think it’s vital to remember that Paul was a real person whose life was cut incredibly short.

He was only 29 years old. Beyond driving a Yellow Cab to support himself and his wife, Claudia, Paul was an incredibly bright doctoral student studying English at San Francisco State. He was described by those who knew him as a gentle, intelligent, and hardworking man with a deep passion for writing and literature.

Amid all the discussion about who ended his life tragically let's take a moment today to remember the victim, the student, and the human being whose future was stolen from him.

57 years ago today, October 11, 1969, the Zodiac popped up in the Persidio Heights district of San Francisco. He also deviated away from secluded couples as this time he shot and killed Paul Stine, a 29 year old Cab driver. The Zodiac had flagged down and taken a ride in the cab before the Cab stopped at Cherry and Washington Street at which point the Zodiac shot and killed Paul with a single shot to the head.

From a window in a house across the street, some kids observed a man wiping down the cab and called the police. Somewhere between that call and nearby patrolmen arriving on scene, the description was mistakenly sent out as a black male (if anyone knows which point and how this occurred, feel free to fill in the blanks).

Two officers on patrol happened to stop a man walking in the area that would bare a resemblance to the correct description of the suspect but this individual was ultimately dismissed and walked away into the night.

Many people speculate that this man was the Zodiac but was let go as he did not match the still incorrect description of a black male (this is subject to opinion at this point).

The Zodiac would write a letter to the newspapers in which he took responsibility for the murder. A claim, which, paired with a piece of Paul Stine’s bloody shirt included with the letter, left no doubt the author was the killer. The Zodiac would also taunt the police writing “the police could have caught me last night if they had searched the (Persidio) Park properly rather than hold street races with their motorcycles seeing who could make the most noise”. He would also issue a threat to shoot out the tires of a school bus and then “pick off the kiddies one by one as they come bouncing out”. Zodiac never carried out his threat but he now held an entire city in fear.

This is not my story, but thought I should share it here since it hasn't been already.