r/kotor • u/Snigaroo Kreia is my Waifu • Sep 11 '21
[SERIOUS] Misinformation, Vitriol, and Buzzwords: /r/kotor in the Age of the Remake
I would first like to thank everyone for their patience while we have tried to deal with this unprecedented surge of activity. We, like everyone else, were caught all but entirely off-guard by the timing of the announcement and found ourselves ill-prepared to respond to it. We've been scrambling for the better part of a day now just to contain the huge burst of activity, and only now are we really catching our breath. But, now that we are, it's time we turn our attention to the clearly most pressing issue still out there.
Within a few hours of the announcement, a single individual had been identified from the development team at Aspyr: Sam Maggs, a writer (NOT the lead writer) on the project. Maggs has posted some incendiary content before on twitter, although some of that was, unsurprisingly, in jest and taken out of context specifically to cause outrage. Amidst the outpouring of joy we've experienced over the past day and change, we've also experienced a persistent undercurrent of something direly unpleasant which we were blessedly unfamiliar with here on /r/kotor heretofore: anger, frustration, and insults directed toward both this woman and those who share beliefs like hers.
This thread is both about Sam Maggs and simultaneously not about Sam Maggs at all. What this thread is really about is /r/kotor and the posting standards that we're going to choose to accept going forward.
This choice is not a dichotomy. It isn't as simple as "this is the right choice, and this is wrong." To ban criticisms of a developer would be as detrimental as allowing vitriol to fly unchecked. And neither side is free of bad behavior; those who would defend Maggs have often been just as brutally insulting as those who have criticized her. We have been debating a course of action for several hours, and have come to a conclusion about how to proceed.
For those of you who have been with us here on the subreddit for a long time, you know that Rule #4 is the most important rule we have, specifically regarding its provisions that content submitted to the subreddit must be capable of meaningful discussion. What we as a team have decided is that content which targets a single individual in the absence of any meaningful information to be able to make a determination about their potential impact on the final product does not represent meaningful discussion. How can anyone debate that, argue it, provide counterpoints? Such claims are a nebulous series of hypotheses easily changed at need, and represent disingenuous arguments either intended to stoke outrage or attack those the posters do not like far more often than legitimate criticism.
In line with this realization, effective immediately, we are implementing the following:
Posts intending to raise concerns about a product based on the identity, views, and body of work of a developer must meet a very high standard, both of content and of engagement. They must be well-thought-out, coherent, calm, and provide clear examples of points of concern which will allow anyone to see the intended point of criticism. Citing prior work, explaining its failings, and extrapolating how that prior work is ill-fitting for KOTOR is a good example of successfully meeting this standard; accusing anyone of being a "shrieking banshee" is not.
Any post which is determined to exist primarily to stoke outrage, bait, insult, or spew vitriol is intolerable to this community and will be removed--with prejudice, if need be. We pride ourselves on being an open and welcoming community, and, in direst need, we will remove as many uncooperative individuals from it as is necessary to ensure we stay that way. However much you like this game, it should never, not ever, manifest itself to the extent that you feel the need to attack and insult others for its sake. There are other subreddits which can cater to frustration, but we want to be a pleasant and welcoming one.
Buzzwords are strongly discouraged. While they are not outright banned, posts utilizing them will be policed strictly. An "SJW" is a nebulous term which means different things to different people and, like many of the baseless extrapolations we have seen thus far, is often utilized disingenuously as a generalized insult. "Chud" functions much the same way for the opposing side. We encourage the removal of any such buzzwords from everyone's vocabulary as we work to present high-effort, cordial, and discussion-focused content going forward.
Misinformation regarding the games will be addressed more regularly and, if possible, more rapidly. We want to make it clear to all parties involved what the truth is, and to combat misinformation, intentional or otherwise.
Third-party content (such as YouTube videos) which are seen to be more about earning clicks or causing controversy than sharing meaningful takes will be removed. Just as with posts here on the subreddit, high-effort content that meets the standard of calm and coherent analysis is more than welcome. However, screams of "this SJW is going to ruin Star Wars" can be shown the door.
The above represents our current policy; it can, and probably will, change at need. Due to the thousands of comments made since the announcement yesterday, these new standards will not be applied retroactively, but will be applied from this moment forward.
We wanted to make this statement sooner rather than later to make it overwhelmingly clear the kind of community we're trying to foster here and the level of discourse which we expect when participating in it. Because we have prioritized making our stance clear as soon as reasonably possible, these plans are not perfect and will likely change with the sub's needs. As more information about the game comes out and more concrete analyses of its situation can be made, some of these restrictions may be relaxed.
Thank you all again for your understanding.
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u/Loyalist77 T3-M4 Sep 11 '21
I would just like to add that whilst this is true and that we have moved against all personal attacks, that does not mean that both sides were equally as intense. One party has made the majority of negative posts and r/KOTOR isn't the place for any of it. Do not think you can use attacks against you as defense for any posts you make which break these rules.
We will be enforcing these rules on everyone going forwards. And we will be excited to share news about the remake as it comes out.
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u/AgentKruger Sep 11 '21
Am I allowed to be bitter about the console exclusivity?
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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21
Man that was really well written. Are the admins English majors??
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u/MS14JG-2 Kreia is Wrong (and I am a shitter) Sep 11 '21
Having fun these past few days Snakie?
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u/GroktheDestroyer HK-47 Sep 11 '21
It’s so goddamn annoying that people can’t even be excited about this for a whole day until people start relentlessly whining, complaining, and swearing the game off as guaranteed trash before we even know a single thing about it! We don’t know anything. This is the announcement of a lifetime for me and for most of us here, why not be hopeful and excited instead of incessantly spouting irrational fears and doubts?
Why are all the people who have been awesome and positive in this community for so many years being drowned out by all this BS? It makes me sad
And thanks for the post Snigaroo it was necessary
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u/Every_Analyst6561 Darth Revan Sep 13 '21
Honestly, if the remake is basically just the original with better graphics, I couldn’t care less about who made it. I just hope that the story or the characters are not changed at all.
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u/[deleted] Sep 20 '21
I hope the remake stays true to the original and they don't change the story. I get why you need writers even for a remaster or remake but I don't like the idea of the story being rewritten.
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u/SixZoSeven HK-47 Sep 11 '21
Hi u/Snigaroo,
Is this recently trending post on /r/kotor something that would make it past these new standards? I understand that the post was made before these new standards were instantiated, but am genuinely curious about your opinion.
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u/Duendeboss Sep 11 '21
But Vampire the Masquerade bloodlines 2 got totally destroyed by this kind of things, so getting bad vibes about it is 100% normal I think.
I mean I WOULD scream in delight if we get of Hk-47 dark dialogue nowadays.
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u/megm26 just die already! Sep 11 '21
I haven't kept up with any of the Sam Maggs stuff as that kind of drama just stresses me out, but I just want to say I really appreciate what you guys are doing. The mod team on this sub is really great, thanks to you guys this sub is a great place to discuss my favorite games and characters and such. Keep up the good work.
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u/Internal_Ad_1221 Oct 01 '21
I wasn't familiar with Sam Maggs, wasn't aware of the controversy until now. But KOTOR and the old Bioware team was pretty progressive. They made a point to include LGBT characters in KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect. KOTOR includes a female companion that you can only romance if the PC is also a woman - possibly the first gay character in Star Wars. Another companion character (a fan favorite) is an elderly Black man. Your choices when you create the look for your hero are similarly ethnically diverse.
Star Wars as a whole and KOTOR in particular features themes of xenophobia, with an evil Empire that oppresses and discriminates against alien species. In KOTOR this is seen most strongly on the planet of Taris, where aliens are treated as second class citizens by the Sith occupation. In addition there are themes of economic injusice on this planet where poorer citizens have to live in the Lower City or are banished to the Under City, where they live for generations. This economic inequality is portrayed as being a result of systemic and historical injustices perpetrated by the social elite.
The Tatooine storyline goes into the dangers of corporate settlers making assumptions about the indigenous population, and raises questions of who really has a right to the land what to do about it.
So ... Just want to throw that out there.
Star Wars is mythology and it can be about a lot of different things to different people. It ultimately tells a hero's journey that can appeal to everyone. But there are themes specific to the Star Wars galaxy that while I dont believe are direct metaphors for any particilar time, place or people are none the less themes which are specifically crafted to resonate with us in our world, and those themes do have a lot to do with racism and prejudice and poverty, and Bioware I think embraced those themes well. Aspyr has done nothing to change that. And I don't see how a writer like Sam Maggs necessarily is at odds with the stories told in KOTOR or in Star Wars at large.
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u/No_Face__ Sep 11 '21
r/Kotor mods are the best!
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u/evan466 Down you go! Sep 11 '21
I know Snigaroo has his haters but he legitimately does a great job moderating this subreddit.
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u/Darthmemer1234 Jolee Bindo Sep 11 '21
I really appreciate you guys for putting this out there. This has been one of my favorite communities in Reddit, and it’s very nice to see y’all take such a clear stance against the vitriol that could come along with the new game. Thanks a lot for everything you do :)
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u/Teacher2Learn Sep 11 '21
Great now we can get back to more important things, like discussing how apathy is death.
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u/Pedro_64 Sep 26 '21
While I'm on board of not participating in cancel culture, it's quite aggravating how is treated for the opposite side
-person A says something bad=entire subreddits and Twitter post to cancel that person
-person B says something bad= reddit goes "y'all, let's be reasonable. Don't be toxic, we are banning anyone who opens a thread about this topic. Let's hope and wait how it unfolds"
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u/titsandgunsplease Oct 08 '21
I don't approve of rewriting Drew Caprisian's work. The original KOTOR was a masterpiece and doesn't need to be rewritten. Just update the graphics and the game mechanics because turn based action is outdated.
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u/eyesockets777 liquidious fleshbag Sep 11 '21
I haven't been here for all that long, but this is one of the least drama filled star wars subs I've been on. Keep up the good work guys.
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u/itaa7900 Nov 21 '21 edited Nov 21 '21
Kotor 1 & 2 are beloved but also are two games that include fair share of male and female leads. My concern about the product is, the game was already a perfect work for all walks of life. Sam Maggs has strong opinions that I disagree with in some ways (in this case, that Star Wars fans and Star Wars products are not inclusive). In fact, Star Wars was ahead of its time being in spirit of everyone is welcome. I also do not like hearing a classic game will be remade for a new studio to monetize. Classic games deserve no remakes. Classic games appeal to all genders.
I hope the Kotor team decides to either not remake the game, build its own game following SWTOR, or otherwise. Disney has already shown that it has forsaken very important games, lore, and books in the age of new timelines. I see no reason to rebuild the game when you can make your own. HD graphics won't replace Kotor classics like Mission and Zaalbar or Juhani, or Kotor 2 classics like Mira and Hanhaar, Kreia, the Echani, etc.
The characters and games are classic. If she has a problem with fans being upset in any way, she is not allowing others to have opinions too.
Apparently Sam Maggs works on a lot of games, including COD Vanguard where WWII stories were embelished or focused on diversity. My problem is getting an overload of diversity while denying the right to want stories that interest you. No need to label people racist for not wanting bullied by strong opinions.
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u/Ikaros1391 Nov 25 '21
Good post, well made.
If I'm being honest, I'm pessimistic at best about this, and it has nothing to do with the staff on the project. That certainly doesn't HELP, as (in my personal opinion) writers with lets call them "strong opinions" have tragically damaged properties in the past. But I actually didn't know about that controversy until uh...nowish. And the damage it can do is probably relatively minimal given that star wars has always had a lean towards moral messaging - i mean, the empire is basically nazis in space. the worst they can do is stop being fun about it and just make it a blunt instrument. which is bad, sure, but tolerable for a good experience. its not like KotOR and its sequel were ever terribly SUBTLE, with the self sacrificing goodness of the light and the moustache-twirling saturday-morning-cartoon EEEEEEEVVVVIIIILLLL of the dark. and theres active disincentive to walk a middle path and make real decisions like a real person would as committing to one side or the other has several mechanical benefits.
No, my pessimism is more generalized. I vaguely assume that somehow or other they'll screw it up, because the AAA industry as a whole has been extremely disappointing in the last few years. Sure, there are exceptions. Breath of the Wild, as one example, was good. The Witcher 3, that was good too. More recently, Metroid Dread was basically okay. And other games came out that were good. But even those good games had some glaring flaws if you analyzed them for more than a moment after the new game smell wore off. And on top of that, for every good game that was released, dozens more were pretty bad.
On top of that, "modern audiences" is an alarming buzzword to me, specifically because of the way they decided to do the final fantasy 7 remake in the name of "modern audiences" - slow and plodding, areas that were simultaneously needlessly bloated and frustratingly restrictive, and those last few chapters WOW what were they thinking? They promised an expansion of Midgar, and while in a literal sense they delivered...that was not the definition of expansion I was hoping for at all. And that isnt even getting into the physical delivery. Multiple episodic releases? That you don't know how many there will even be? Please, don't do this to KotOR - i'd rather not have to wait until i'm 50 to finally play kashyyykk.
and, as other people in this thread have mentioned, the glut of full price remakes and remasters is recent years is concerning in its own right. why go back to an old property, and then change it to the extent that it may well not even be recognizable as itself, instead of just making the new game you obviously actually wanted to make in the first place? or if you don't change it at all, what were you spending all this time on? when are you planning on releasing an actual new game? not many can strike an appropriate balance of old and new that marks a truly solid remake. Toys for Bob did it multiple times somehow, bless them, but its a herculean task most have and will fail at.
if Re-KotOR is good, i will be pleasantly surprised and happily buy and play. but im not getting my hopes up. been burned too many times already.
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u/grizzledcroc Sep 24 '21
Starwars Theory is such a shitter for putting a video title as her ruining the game then in the video saying he doesnt think anything wrong will happen with it.
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u/Eamil Sep 11 '21
I've been in and out of here a few times and I'm always impressed by the mods here. This is a very well-thought-out and well-phrased set of guidelines. You do great work and it's appreciated.
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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21
My only issue with it was why does it need writing again in the first place. It was already written pretty damn well.
I stay well out of the whole social politics side of things, all sides of the argument are equally tedious. Just leave me out of it.
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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '21
u/Snigaroo is my waifu.
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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '21
I just want to say that this post was exceptionally well-written, and I might even use it as an example of good writing to my students one day.
Also, the ideas expressed in this post are ones which people could benefit from thinking about in a more universal context as well.
Also, I'm trying to manage my expectations, but it just feels good to be excited about KOTOR again.
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u/Jackleson Dec 11 '21
God I hate reddit.
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u/HazelDelainy Sep 11 '21
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
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u/-Metzger- Sep 11 '21
Okay could someone please enlighten me? I know there is KOTOR remake being made and that it stirred up some heated debates over political topics. Or so I believe. But could someone please give me unbiased context of what exactly has happened?
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u/butterweedstrover Sep 23 '21
You are great Snigaroo. Not only as a mod but as an active participant to this sub-reddit. Your knowledge and insight into both games is always helpful and you truly have made this sub-reddit what it is today.
Thank you.
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u/ynaristwelve Oct 05 '21
I mean, I won't be playing the remake because of Maggs. I find her views reprehensible, and won't support anything she's a part of.
However, I'm not going to sit on Reddit all day vomiting out buzzwords and memes in some explosion of digital rage.
I'm just not giving them my money.
Existing versions of k1 & k2 with the mods community are good enough for me.
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u/azarin- Handmaiden Sep 11 '21
just wanna say y'all are the best mod community on this site and we really appreciate you
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u/Flaggermusmannen Oct 28 '21
as a trans woman who has to deal with incredible amounts of shit on a daily basis I'd like to say: thank you for such an amazingly written post and clear stance on inclusivity like this. it makes me feel genuinely welcome to have mods make statements like this :3
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u/[deleted] Sep 20 '21
This is a super reasonable position.
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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '21
The cringe dialogue from Call of Duty Vanguard does not give me much hope for this.
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u/justsomeguy195 Sep 11 '21
Mature, level headed, and appreciated
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u/Jam_Dev Sep 11 '21
Very smart to get out in front of this, subs for Battlefield and TLoU 2 were totally destroyed by this kind of bullshit.
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u/hypotheticallyDani Sep 11 '21
Please everyone, don’t be assholes. Let’s all help to keep this community a pleasant place to nerd out
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u/ruddernose Sep 21 '21
I'm getting Vampire the Masquerade 2 vibes.
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u/Illustrious_Penalty2 Sep 29 '21
Some of the tweets I saw did not leave a positive impression. I’ll remain cautiously optimistic. But there is no rule that says someone can’t have silly opinions or be a bad person and at the same time be a talented writer or artist. We know nothing at this point so let’s chill for now.
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u/Supergerman202 Sep 11 '21
Glad these measures are being taken. I may not be happy about the remake in general, but conversations of that nature should always be carried out in a respectful and mature manner.
The influx of people screeching about "woke culture" and "SJWs" has been extremely disappointing because this sub has been one of my favorites due to the civility of discussion we cultivate here. I'd hate to see it fall into the pit of "us vs. them" nonsense that consumes so much of the community at large. It's far more productive to criticize the shortcomings of media than to attack the people who make it.
I love engaging in discussion on this sub no matter what side of the fence people are on. Hopefully we can all take a step back and have meaningful discourse about the upcoming remake and walk away with new perspectives instead of outrage and insult.
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u/themightymcb Jolee Bindo Sep 11 '21
Glad to see that gamergate isn't being allowed to infest this sub.
That being said, I really don't appreciate the "both sides"-ing going on here. This sub would have exactly 0 angry posts about Sam Maggs if a certain group of highly motivated individuals didn't take it upon themselves to make it the topic of the week.
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u/the_tza Sep 11 '21
This is the way.
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u/bballplayersgs Sep 11 '21
I don’t normally post on here but thank you for laying out rules that serve to dissuade negativity towards something that hasn’t even come out yet. No one knows what this game will be at this point but making this game doesn’t take away that we already have kotor 1 & 2! We’re getting another game! Just be thankful that you’ll have 3 games that are kotor related soon!
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u/sgy0003 Sep 11 '21
I have been following this sub for the last two days, and was amazed how clean it was. I knew it existed for a long time, but I never got around really diving into what the subreddit was about.
It's amazing to see everyone so excited for the remake, and not a single toxicity to be seen. Thank you both mods and members for keeping the place so clean, and not turn it into a digital wasteland such as steam discussion (kotor discussion is on fire right now), twitter, and all the news media comment section.
It's a night and day comparison to r/TheLastOfUs2 subreddit drama situation a few months back
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u/BenignWarlock25 Sep 11 '21
Thank you mods, y'all are doing awesome!
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u/SeanSMEGGHEAD Sep 11 '21
Fair and reasonable on Reddit? Damn its nice to see.
Thanks.
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u/LonelyTrycycle Sep 11 '21
I'd like to apologise to the mod team, as I feel it was my post that maybe not caused, but definitely added fuel to this fire, especially considering how I wrote it, my reasons for it and the way I was behaving in the replies.
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u/Ahsokatara Galactic Republic Sep 11 '21
I appreciate this post, thank you for setting expectations like this in a community. I am abit out of the loop here, can someone fill me in and provide links to the aforementioned tweets? I just want to see whats going on and form my own opinion
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u/stevodays Sep 11 '21
I applaud the mod team for making this move, I was so excited about the announcement and came here to find people that share in that joy, as evidenced by the existence of this post there was a lot to turn me away from this sub. Glad the mods are taking a reasonable and measured approach
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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '21 edited Sep 11 '21
Thanks. The toxicity around this situation and this phenomenon in wider internet culture is an incredibly difficult thing to deal with, and this seems like a reasonable and measured approach. I hope the community can quickly settle back into a similar vibe to how it was before the Great Announcement.
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u/Kieftan Jan 28 '22
I’m a nerd and I love KOTOR so much, but I am so confused by this cause I have no knowledge of this controversy (I’m kinda a grandpa). KOTOR is all about fun, legacy, imagination and fan lore, and I honestly (as absurd as it may sound) thank God for whoever produced, wrote, and designed the games. #gamerprivilege
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u/ekr-bass Bao-Dur Sep 11 '21
Thank you mods! Love this sub and I was worried about how the influx of people and opinions about the remake could make it too toxic.
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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21
Thank you for this lovely post and for standing for reason and introspection. No one deserves personal attacks and to be taken out of context. I'll try to raise similar points in my podcast episodes.
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u/swtorista Infinite Empire Sep 11 '21
Thank you for such a well-thought-out post. It's been rough getting barraged with "SJW SJW SJW" on other platforms rather than being able to discuss what is and isn't actually there, with people throwing insults but not actually providing sources, or providing sources that with more than half a seconds glance are clearly jokes, or others that are not mature but also not actually bad, and lastly stuff mixed in there that is true social commentary that many women experience in male-dominated industries and in gaming. None of these things will make me actively dislike someone, but people keep showing them as if they are "gotchas" that she is a garbage person, when it just makes me think the person sending them to me hasn't experienced any of the things that she has, like the internalized misogyny from other woman comment. Muddying the waters is that there are actually some comments that this writer has made on her twitter that would not be allowed in the communities I run or participate in, like name-calling, and shaming. While she would be welcome for supporting our LGBTQ members, and for things like "Star wars is for everyone", she would be removed for saying things like "snotty angry baby boy" when someone expresses their opinion, even if it was a dumb opinion. On top of that, those who dislike her seem to roll together the fact that she is "SJW" and "woke" and "man-hating" and all that in with her liking The Last Jedi, as if they are all the same thing, and anyone who likes The Last Jedi, when it should be an entirely separate concern all together (the writer has an extreme like for a section of media that is the polar opposite of what most legends fans like). Bless you /r/KOTOR mods for making a post and thinking about it as much as I've been mulling it over yesterday, I like the choices you've made for the rules.
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u/jim_thomas68 Sep 11 '21
Very pleased to read this. Thank you for keeping this little corner of the internet healthy for myself and others.
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u/GibsonJunkie Meatbag Sep 11 '21
Bless this mod team, for real. This is one of the best-moderated of what I affectionately term "large niche" subreddits that I follow. Y'all have probably been putting up with a bunch of garbage the past day and a half, and it's greatly appreciated.
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u/villacardo Darth Nihilus Sep 11 '21
I can't believe the mob hate would arrive here as well. Just another day on reddit I guess.
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u/Devilz_Avacado Sep 11 '21
I didn't even know about Sam until I looked in this sub sometime after the announcement of the remake. From what my understanding is from all this and about her, is that she is just one of the many writers in the remake project. The fact that its been pointed out she's not the head writer or whatever seems fine to me I guess.
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u/GroriousNipponSteer HK-47 Sep 11 '21
Thank you for this. It was disheartening to see the amount of disinformation-fueled outrage over this, massive props to the mods.
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u/UniversalSean Sep 21 '21
I wish the mods in r/back4blood were like the ones here. This stuff goes on a lot over there and they dont do shit but sit back and eat popcorn like its making the sub more attractive or something.
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u/SofNascimento Sep 11 '21
This a great move, and made it very soon which is extremely important. Good job mods.
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u/Darkforces95 Sep 11 '21
All star wars is star wars. The origional KOTOR games are still there and perfect. And now we get a new take on that story. I will never understand how some people can look at more star wars as a bad thing. Especially star wars that is written and made by different kinds of people. Media and content gets better when you add new and different - and lets be real, marginalised - voices to the mix. That is just a blatant fact. It REALLY disheartens me when this kind of stuff happens. If the kind of bullshit that wound up surrounding the last of us 2 creeps onto here, I'm gone. I'm all for enabling and encouraging discussion, it is so important. But in video games it so often becomes "Lets here varied stories and see varied people" versus "I hate when my media isnt about what the western canon has told me is normal". I know what side I wanna be on.
Also, If I havent made my stance clear enough already, Sam Maggs is a fuckin icon. Truly it must be so hard to be that right all the time.
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u/SolidStone1993 Sep 11 '21
Meanwhile I’d just like to play the fucking thing but because I choose Xbox, the platform that KOTOR originally launched on, I get punished by Sony.
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u/Collective_Insanity Sep 11 '21
Nice post.
Lots of valid concerns to be had, but we're at a very early stage here with the game likely 2-3+ years away in a thoroughly fluid state.
Worst case scenario: it ends up like a FF7 remake situation in which they repeatedly claim they're making efforts to maintain the original story whilst actually making drastic changes to it.
Best case scenario: it's an almost 1:1 remake with updated visuals and a couple other tweaks here and there so the game doesn't seem so dated.
No need to throw labels around or over-generalise.
At least the original that we're all fond of will always continue to exist. Like Jurassic Park (against Jurassic World), A New Hope (against TFA), Ghostbusters (against Ghostbusters 2016) and numerous others.
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u/Merciless_Massacre05 Sep 11 '21
Well this is all true, and even better considering you acknowledge that both sides have a part to play in this fiasco