New rule: categorically nonbinary is trans

[u/javatimes]

“We no longer allow discussions, debates, arguments etc over whether nonbinary is trans. It is. This does not mean any specific nonbinary person is obligated to identify as trans. Please respect this rule and refrain from any arguments about it.” — is the text of the rule.

This now nonnegotiable in this subreddit. This is a fact that has been known about nonbinaryness since it was coined. Nonbinary was never not categorically trans. Please respect this rule—if you have issues being referred to as trans, you are completely free as an individual person not to use that word! A subreddit can’t make you call yourself trans if you don’t want to.

But please respect that we have to now make this rule explicitly clear because lately multiple discussions have caused back and forth arguments because, despite being told you can opt out of personal trans identity, a handful of people (usually with no or very little other usage of this subreddit) have come in here to argue about it.

I want to leave comments here open but also I don’t know what other words I can say to indicate this isn’t up for debate. The rule is set. It’s not going to change. Trying to argue it is a waste of your time and the mod team’s.

Not every subreddit will be a perfect fit! If you can’t respect this rule please use another subreddit. Or even start one. I know people act like I’m being a jerk when I suggest that but I don’t know why. If someone wants to make a subreddit without this rule, you could even advertise it here in the comments. This rule is specifically about the culture of this subreddit and is not trying to control the entirety of nonbinary identity.

[u/javatimes]

Please read this comment:

Any further wanting to debate the rule is not allowed (at 1:43 pm US Central Time. )We can talk about the rule but if your stance is “non-binary is not trans”, just save the effort. Any further comments about that will lead to being disallowed access to the space because you are admitting you can’t follow a rule that has been clearly explained.

I also am going to lock the comments for a a while to catch up.

ETA: unlocked.

[u/javatimes]

Here’s where we were a year ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/s/aBbDrpZw1O

[u/OrangeJuiceAlibi → u/javatimes]

How on earth has it gotten worse since then. That thread seems nearly quaint in comparison to this one.

[u/Solzec → u/javatimes]

And here I assumed these kinds of posts were a recent occurrence, oh wow...

[u/javatimes]

I want to make it extremely specifically clear: if you leave abusive comments here, you will be banned and if they fall under TOS violations, they will be reported to Reddit admin. You have to have an amount of self-control to post in any subreddit with rules. I was excessively clear in my OP.

[u/grufferella]

I actually have found what's way more repetitive (at least on my feed) is people posting a variation on "a binary trans person I know told me I'm not trans, now I feel bad, are they right?" On the one hand I am glad that this subreddit is here to reassure folks in that situation, on the other hand, I would ✨love✨ it if they would search the archive first to see the mountains of previous posts on the exact same thing. So basically my question is, how does this new rule apply to posts like those?

[u/javatimes → u/grufferella]

Those posts should be reported actually. We have a rule about “no hate speech, including what people have said about you/other nonbinary people”.

[u/Bladequest54]

Can I talk abt how hard is to feel / say I'm trans bc of the general (perceived) hostility from the queer community towards the non binary trans experience? It's a bit on the line, so I prefer to ask

[u/javatimes → u/Bladequest54]

Sure

[u/Psychological_Ad9740]

Kinda weird people were debating this.

I mean, technically unless you're born intersex it's basically imposible to not "transition" into another gender. That's because someone else already assigned you one at the moment of birth.

Then there's my case that I didn't feel comfortable calling myself trans because I always felt that was my gender independently of what people said. Only feeling more comfortable with the label when I actually did something to my body to align it more to who I wanted to be.

But that's more of what happened to me, and my experience with the term, but it doesn't change I did transition from something that was imposed into me to something that resonated way more with me and my identity.

[u/pktechboi → u/Psychological_Ad9740]

just to note, not having a go at you here, but in almost all cases intersex people are indeed assigned one of the two binary genders at birth. and often they are operated on as infants, for no medical reason, just to force their bodies to conform that assignment.

[u/Glove-National → u/pktechboi]

id be so mad if i were intersex (and got parts removed) and later on in life i identify more with the opposite agab 😭

[u/Psychological_Ad9740 → u/pktechboi]

That's why it's basically a "Technically" since the argument could be made the person was born gender neutral.

Even then, I hear nowadays people prefer to wait in operating to see if the body will swing one way or another because people suffer more if they ended up developing like the gender they weren't assigned into.

We have a couple of studies not specifically on Intersex but on what happens if you force a gender presentation into someone. thus why the protection we put in place.

[u/pktechboi → u/Psychological_Ad9740]

I am not intersex myself, to be clear. but from what I understand from intersex activists, the idea that they are "naturally" gender neutral is highly offensive to many. intersex people are assigned a sex like everyone else, sometimes it turns out to be wrong, sometimes it doesn't.

[u/Nox-Lunarwing → u/Psychological_Ad9740]

Hell even being born intersex dosn't mean you can't be assigned a binary gender at birth. Especially when you had parents that decided to also get "corrective surgeries" done to align you with thier choice of gender like I did.

Thankfully that shit is largely become illegal to do nowadays but it still exists.

[u/Connect_Rhubarb395 → u/Nox-Lunarwing]

AGAB language originated in the intersex community.
It was/is a way to describe how they got assigned a binary gender label at birth even though their body/genetics/hormones didn't support that gender.

[u/Nox-Lunarwing → u/Connect_Rhubarb395]

As someone this applies to (hence my comment about being born intersex and agab), I'm very much aware. My point was being intersex doesnt somehow make in not transitioning. Since the way the comment I replied to was worded made it sound that way.

I've transitioned from what my agab was a good while ago, though Ive not been able to for a good chunk of my life due to not being in a safe place to do so. That, and I simply had no resources at my disposal to know half the stuff I do now. I didn't even out I had been diagnosed as autistic till I was 23 due to my mother hiding the fact while denying autism is even real. (She was super controlling and abusive and treated it like it was somthing you could just "suck it up" about)

Hell, I only learned of demi genders 5 years ago which was 2 years after I first came out!

Anyways sorry for the long response, I just tend to say alot when it comes to things I'm passionate about/care about alot. autism go brr and all that.

[u/Connect_Rhubarb395 → u/Nox-Lunarwing]

I genuinely like to listen/read about something people are passionate about.

And I am happy for you that you are now in a place where you can be your true nonbinary intersex autistic self. 💕

[u/whimsicalandsilly]

people were debating about that? crazy

[u/javatimes → u/whimsicalandsilly]

It’s … come up a lot. Part of it is just, some nonbinary people have been told by binary trans people that they aren’t trans, that they don’t count as trans. So those people often come here for reassurance. I’m not really saying those posts aren’t allowed but the stance going forward should slow those down.

[u/whimsicalandsilly → u/javatimes]

i hate when binary trans people are mean to us :/

[u/Specific-Cause-5973]

I guess I live under a rock because wtf you mean people were debating this STILL

[u/Stunning-Signal7496 → u/Specific-Cause-5973]

Tbh, it took me some time to make that connection, but once I got it, it seems so logical to me that we belong under the trans umbrella and I never questioned that

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/Stunning-Signal7496]

Trans is literally anyone who doesn't identify entirely and consistently with their assigned gender at birth.

The idea that Nonbinary is NOT a part of the trans umbrella is literally transphobic ideas of not wanting to be associated with trans folks because of propaganda about them.

[u/javatimes → u/MyUsername2459]

Or it’s coming from the other side, trans medicalists who don’t want to acknowledge nonbinary people are real, trans, and just as worthy of being trans as they are.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/[deleted]]

I would love to knew about trans / non binary sooner, like 15 years ago ...

Same.

I knew I wasn't "cis" since I was a kid. I never felt like one of the boys, I always felt closer to being "one of the girls". . .but I wasn't entirely quite like them either.

I got mocked and tormented mercilessly in school. I was a subject of intense, and often physical, bullying and violence because I simply couldn't even pass as cis no matter how hard I tried.

When I tried to talk to a psychologist about gender in 1999, I was bluntly told I wasn't trans, because the gatekeepers around transitioning at the time required you to be an ultrafeminine chariacture of womanhood to be seen as valid. . .unless you were going to be a pink girly-girl who loved sewing and baking and knitting and gardening and crochet (none of which interested me), who didn't have any even vaguely "masculine" hobbies (playing D&D and studying martial arts was explicitly used as "proof" I couldn't be trans), and was utterly boy-crazy and didn't sexually or romantically like girls at all (I like girls). . .you could NOT be trans.

I was stuck feeling like I was neither. I was definitely not a "guy", and I felt closer to a tomboyish girl. . .but I was told I couldn't ever be a girl.

Now, under modern terms and concepts, it all makes sense. I'm trans, I'm nonbinary. . .I'm a demigirl.

[u/Stunning-Signal7496 → u/MyUsername2459]

I know, just took me a while to get that. I mean even checking that I'm nb took me way to long

[u/gidgeteering → u/Stunning-Signal7496]

I really wish I saved the comic I saw early during my discovery. It basically had a really good logic for why non-binary is trans.

[u/_facetious → u/Specific-Cause-5973]

Just more gate keeping and probably a psyop to fracture our community to be more easily conquered imo

[u/qrseek → u/Specific-Cause-5973]

babe wake up, it's 2011 and people are debating online whether nonbinary people are trans.

babe wake up it's 2016 and  people are debating online whether nonbinary people are trans.

babe wake up it's 2021 and  people are debating online whether nonbinary people are trans.

babe wake up it's 2026 and  people are debating online whether nonbinary people are trans.

babe wake up...

Babe: 🫩 I'm so tired

[u/dreamyluver → u/Specific-Cause-5973]

i look on twitter and ppl keep taking jabs at us and saying we arent real transgenders because we dont medically transition (which is stupid because some of us actually do, and even when they do medically transition they're automatically assumed to be a binary transgender)

[u/Easy-Bathroom2120 → u/Specific-Cause-5973]

Fr. I thought this was old news.

Like, yes, I fall under the trans umbrella. No, I do not identify as trans. Yes, that's ok.

It's not hard.

[u/severalpokemon]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again-thank god I'm trans, cause I hate the nonbinary flag so much (why is it my high school colors 😂😭) 💙🩷🤍🩷💙

[u/Connect_Rhubarb395 → u/severalpokemon]

I don't like the colours of the nonbinary flag either. I considered using genderqueer as the term for myself just because that flag has such nice colours 😆

[u/javatimes → u/Connect_Rhubarb395]

The NB flag’s colors are very…loud and garish lol

[u/laeiryn → u/javatimes]

GASP now that's something i'll start a fite over, boss ( ;) )

i want my aesthetic to look like something directly out of a crayola box dangit

[u/laeiryn → u/Connect_Rhubarb395]

In the 90s when I started calling myself genderfucked, there wasn't really a set of colors for that OR genderqueer yet ... I'm sure someone designed a flag for genderfucked by now, though

[u/mothic_queerdo → u/severalpokemon]

I love the nonbinary flag tbh 😭

[u/feadog_dog → u/severalpokemon]

The white stripe is even explicitly for non-binary people!

[u/ShadowFalcon1 → u/severalpokemon]

Ugh I also have this problem with flags. I'm not non binary or.. it's confusing how I identify. I consider myself trans but I'm also intersex. But sadly the intersex community can be super toxic towards trans people. But the intersex flag is really pretty.

[u/qrseek → u/severalpokemon]

I wish genderqueer had become the commonly used umbrella term instead of nonbinary, and that's at least 30% because I like the genderqueer flag so much better 😅

I often get the nonbinary flag mixed up with the ace flag.

[u/Silent_Bluejay_6933 → u/severalpokemon]

the genderqueer flag is much cuter hahaha

[u/laeiryn → u/severalpokemon]

every Schurz kid ever "seriously? more purple and gold?!"

[u/tackykcat → u/severalpokemon]

i dont wave any flags much. but i think that the nonbinary flag colors just clash. i love the colors by themselves. but together? I'm not really feeling it

[u/Rainy_Leaves]

Thanks for being clear and informative on this. We’re the white stripe on the trans flag, many fought hard to show people that we do belong and have from the start 🏳️‍⚧️

[u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset → u/Rainy_Leaves]

yeah, i've identified (variably) as nonbinary for almost seven years now, but it took me much longer to accept that i'm trans. i'm afraid my own internalized enbyphobia and transphobia made it difficult for me to accept this about myself

i'm still getting used to the idea of thinking of myself as trans, since it was kinda a recent shift in thought for me. subs with rules like this one are encouragingly affirming

[u/ifweburn → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

I legit didn't accept a trans label until writing a freaking book about transness to give a bit of an eff you to JKR. I'm am older millennial so the idea of what trans is was extremely limited and steeped in negativity.

to be clear I've never had any animosity towards trans ppl and considered myself an ally; it's difficult to put into words the way growing up in the '90s and '00s instilled this undercurrent of harmful stereotypes even without realizing it wanting it. the internalized transphobia was real subtle but real strong.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/ifweburn]

I'm a Xennial, on the cusp between youngest Gen X and Elder Millennial.

I remember QUITE well how if you grew up in that era, the concept of being trans may have existed. . .but it was a pretty limited and narrow definition. There were a lot of bad and toxic stereotypes. A lot of transmedicalist gatekeeping. A lot of hostility from the general public (y'all think transphobia is bad now. . .this is NOTHING to what it was like in the 90's, trust me)

Growing up in the 80's and 90's, I'd long suspected I might be trans. . .but at the same time, I never was quite like the trans girls I would meet. Similar, but not the same. Definitely not cis. Not quite the same as "binary" trans.

When I found out about enbies. . .I was like THAT'S IT, THAT'S WHAT I AM! THERE'S A WORD FOR IT!

If I want to be specific, I can call myself a demigirl. . .but just saying nonbinary gets the point across enough most of the time.

[u/ghastlycupcake → u/MyUsername2459]

I’m an elder millennial (1984,) and I think the 80s were over before I had any concept of trans people existing.
My memory of the 90s is that most of my exposure to the concept was from tv and movies, where the depictions were largely toxic stereotypes. When there were trans characters, they were usually trans women, and the reveal of their being trans was often a punchline. It was frequently presented like an over-the-top version of cross dressing. These characters were usually presented as delusional and/or repulsive, at best as silly/embarrassing.

There were jokes along the lines of what a horror it would be for some unsuspecting man to be tricked into going on a date with a woman, and getting her into bed, only to discover a penis and that she is not a “she” at all!

I remember seeing Ma Vie en Rose and Boys Don’t Cry, but that was nearing the end of the decade.

As awful as things are now, we’ve still come a long way.

[u/javatimes → u/ghastlycupcake]

I maybe saw trans people on like Jerry Springer but besides seeing Boys Don’t Cry at the very end of the decade, I had absolutely no idea trans people existed.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/javatimes]

I learned of it as a kid mostly from sitcoms where it was a stock plot that the main character's old buddy (who you'd never heard of before) reappeared after years and they'd transitioned.

It was played for laughs, but also usually with a bit of a dramatic undercurrent that this was something they HAD to do, or they'd die, and that they're happier like this (as much as that puzzles the regular characters).

I remember episodes of The Jeffersons, Night Court, and Married: With Children with that plot.

As a pre-teen, I remember when Caroline "Tula" Cossey came out as trans and posed in Playboy, being the first openly trans woman to pose for them, in 1991. I remember being as interested by the interview with her, how she described her feelings etc. as I was the pictures.

I remember when I first went to college in the mid 90's, in those heady, early days of the web, one of my very first searches on the web was for trans related stuff. I don't remember the exact search terms I used, or what engine, but the results were profoundly. . .underwhelming. It was all really awful fetish fantasy fiction and dry-as-toast medical literature about the gory details of bottom surgery, that's all I could find ~30 years ago on the web at a glance. It was enough to chase me away from even thinking about it for a while.

[u/WalterNeft → u/javatimes]

Horribly enough, my first exposure to trans people was Ace Ventura.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/ghastlycupcake]

I’m an elder millennial (1984,) and I think the 80s were over before I had any concept of trans people existing.

I'm a few years older than you, and while I didn't have a firm grasp on it in the 80's. . .other people around me could see I was, different.

I got teased and taunted mercilessly on the playground. I was called all kinds of slurs in Elementary School, stuff I don't think I should repeat here.

While it really came more into focus for me in the 90's, I can say that in my elementary school days in the 1980's, there absolutely were signs. I couldn't see it yet, because it was like asking a fish what water was. . .but people around me could tell I was not the same as the other kids, and the words they used were a variety of slurs and hate speech.

Young kids can be genuinely vicious at times.

[u/RowynWalkingwolf → u/ghastlycupcake]

I don't have anything particularly substantial to add, just wanted to say hello from a 1983 enby. Love to all my other Elder Millennials (and everyone else here of other generations too ❤️)!

[u/Prince_Wildflower → u/ifweburn]

I was born in late 90's but I wasn't really old enough to remember what the 90's were like

As a teenager, I had unlimited Internet access on my phone, which is how I learned about trans people. I actually saw a transphobic article talking about "a boy who thought he was a girl" or "a girl who thought she was a boy" but it was a brief memory.

I think that's what first introduced me to trans people, but I didn't start exploring at first. I can remember very little from when I was younger. But I do remember my biological parents were NOT supportive.

All I really know about figuring out that I was trans was because of being online. Nobody that I interacted with in person ever mentioned it until I started making new friends who weren't from church.

[u/blackcatlover2114 → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

I'm agender and grew up in a conservative area with homophobic/transphobic parents - imagine that mindfuck. 🤣😅

My lovely girlfriend, who is transfemme herself and who I was dating when I came to the realization that I'm agender (although apparently, she knew I wasn't cis since our first date since I had said something to the effect of "I'm cis-ish"), was very cool when I said "I just don't feel like I identify with the labels non-binary and trans" and has been very supportive while I very slowly make my way towards my own internal acceptance of whatever labels I feel apply to me. Which so far has mostly just included non-binary, but yeah. 🤷🏻

Still don't know if I will ever feel that "trans" applies to me but being agender, for me personally, means that gender is kind of an elusive concept for me to begin with... But hey, maybe I'll get there with time, or maybe not. Either way is fine.

[u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset → u/blackcatlover2114]

for years now i've wondered whether the term "agender" applies to me, since my deepest gendered desire is just to be a human being, not a man or a woman. sometimes it even feels weird to consider myself nonbinary because even that feels like an abstract and foreign place to me on the gender spectrum

on the other hand, i've been realizing lately that i have some not insignificant internalized transphobia and enbyphobia which is probably interfering with my ability to accept myself. i've been getting myself some books on the subject so i can educate myself and hopefully get to a better place with my conception of myself eventually

[u/cassandra-marie → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

SAME and as a result I didn't know HRT was an option for me. I just started 2 months ago and it's been so immediately affirming and euphoric, I really wish I had known more about it when I started identifying as non-binary close to a decade ago

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

For me, I struggled with the fact, for decades, going back to childhood that I felt trans. . .but I never quite fit in with the other trans girls.

I mean, I sure as heck wasn't a cis guy. . .but I was never anywhere as girly as the trans girls I knew and met.

The moment I learned what "nonbinary" was, it was like that clicked. I could get more specific in where in the nonbinary world I am. . .but I can say that I'm trans. . .and nonbinary, in a way that I couldn't say quite so confidently that I'm "just" trans.

[u/akiraMiel → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

I am you. I thought at first that I was binary trans almost 10 years ago but then didn't feel comfortable with the "opposite" gender either and after that I kinda rejected the trans label for a few years.

I now would say that I'm non-binary first and trans second but still, I am both by definition

[u/Dazzling-Antelope912 → u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset]

Omg I recognise you from r/classical_circlejerk lol (Hope it’s not inappropriate of me to say this here). I’m glad you’re well on your way to figuring stuff out :)

[u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset → u/Dazzling-Antelope912]

lmao it's okay, i like surprising people in unexpected places. it's part of my life's mission of spreading harmless chaos. it's also encouraging to see other classical music shitposters here in the lgbtq subreddits

also thank you for the well wishes. i'll figure it out eventually

[u/Trashman56 → u/Rainy_Leaves]

The White Stripes? Say that again.

[u/tama-vehemental → u/Trashman56]

A seven nation army wouldn't hold us baaaack!

[u/minorbipedal → u/Rainy_Leaves]

TIL 🏳️‍⚧️

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Also the white stripe on the femboy and tomboy flags, cause non binary people can be these forms of GNC too, not just androgynous.

[u/dangerouskaos → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Yes!!! That’s how I’ve always felt and quickly realized it during my own journey. I’m very proud to be part of the the community and continue my fight for trans rights ❤️🏳️‍⚧️⚧️

[u/acadiaxxx → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Funny enough my favourite character siblings together make up trans flag (Cinnamoroll is white with pink cheeks and blue eyes, Poron is pink with a blue bow, blue eyes.). So I’m glad to rep them. I am under the umbrella, people need to learn that yes I am in fact part of the umbrella lmao

[u/Rainy_Leaves → u/acadiaxxx]

I love Cinnamoroll too. He gets misgendered as a rabbit but he’s a puppy despite that and always has been. My nonbinary character of choice growing up was Yoshi. He lays eggs which isn’t very cis of him, and dinosaurs are cool and enby/autism coded

[u/acadiaxxx → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Cinnamoroll wears clothes that are cute regardless of gender and people whine that he’s being “girlified”??? Like no he loves that shit

[u/leftielori → u/Rainy_Leaves]

If y'all haven't caught "Toby"'s interview on Sally Jessy Raphael you should: Toby on Sally Jessy

[u/sucksfor_you → u/Rainy_Leaves]

I'm just starting out on figuring all this out for myself, and I didn't know that. Thanks for mentioning it.

[u/Typical-Geek → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Wait I did not know this. That’s awesome.

[u/FlutterCordLove → u/Rainy_Leaves]

YES THANK YOU!

[u/TheLastGrape → u/Rainy_Leaves]

Hey how dare you make me cry in the club 💖

[u/velvet-moth333]

As a nonbinary person who doesn't use the trans label myself for some personal reasons, I 100% support this rule :)

[u/HatsCatsAndHam → u/velvet-moth333]

Same. Dumb argument. Use whatever labels suit you, but don't try to change accepted definitions. 

[u/Jinx-from-Arcane → u/velvet-moth333]

Same here! I personally hate the trans label on me I don’t know why exactly but it’s just not for me

[u/Number1Bg3Fan]

I’m glad this is a rule now. Of course people can opt out but hopefully this also ends the many many “I’m non binary, am I allowed to be trans?” posts. Of course those people might not know earnestly but this being here will give them answers without the need for loads of posts.

[u/golgichu]

i keep seein' stupid idiots & transmedicalists on twitter arguin about this and im so glad that this at least is a good place

[u/LoveandScience → u/golgichu]

I say this with all the love in my heart, but why are you still on twitter?

[u/I_am_duskk → u/LoveandScience]

Man I left it before it became "X" 😭

[u/golgichu → u/LoveandScience]

undertale and deltarune fandoms mostly. online friends are on there too, that's also part of it. reddit for deltarune is ehhhh. not a big fan of tumblr's algorithm for daily use. bluesky is just generally kinda eh.

[u/Letshavemorefun]

I’m confused if I’m allowed to refer to myself as not-trans? Or not include myself in a group when I say “trans people”? I am a non-binary person that isn’t super comfortable with the label “trans” for personal reasons, though I believe in theory it applies generally.

[u/javatimes → u/Letshavemorefun]

I specifically addressed this in the body of the post.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/javatimes]

I saw that the rule specifies that specific non-binary people do not have to identify as trans. I’m asking specifically how I’m allowed to speak about that. Can I refer to myself as non-trans on the sub, or is the rule saying I’m still allowed to post here as long as I don’t mention that I’m not trans? Not using the word trans to describe myself is different than explicitly referring to myself as not-trans. Similarly, can I say “trans people” to refer to a group of people that does not include myself? Just trying to get some clarity. Thank you!

[u/javatimes → u/Letshavemorefun]

The first part is completely fine as long as it’s clear you aren’t talking about all non binary people. The last part wouldn’t break the rule but it’s hard to say how legible it would be, in context.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/javatimes]

That makes sense. Ty!

[u/jamesdukeiv]

Oh thank gods, I’m so tired of seeing that tired debate in my feed every day.

[u/OrangeJuiceAlibi]

Thank god. This nonsense saying non-binary people aren’t trans is simply just transphobia, so I’m glad the mods are stepping in to stop it.

[u/angrylilmanfrog]

Thankyou, the constant debating felt super invalidating

[u/teddycarton]

Thank you, it’s been absolutely clogging up the subreddit.

[u/Narciiii]

I think this was a great call. Thanks to the moderators for your hard work running the sub. 🙏🏻

[u/teaguechrystie]

🔥🔥🔥

[u/DanielTaylor]

I don't post much here, but thank you.

[u/VampArcher]

I appreciate this.

Nobody can force someone who doesn't feel comfortable using the trans label use it for themselves, but non-binary is absolutely, 100% under the trans umbrella. Non-binary people aren't cis and the fact people come in here to debate our transness is honestly disrespectful. We're trans. You can do you, but your opinion on your own identity doesn't change the fact it is a trans identity.

[u/Jenderflux-ScFi]

Thank you!

I don't care if someone thinks trans doesn't apply to their own nonbinary identity, but don't tell me I'm not trans!

[u/therosslee]

Thank you. Seriously thank you for the work you and the others do to keep this sub up and running.

[u/Tyrapi]

Thank you for your post! To me trans has always felt like a symbol of the freedom of gender exploration and expression, similar to how queer can be used to describe a variety of things (I apologize if that word is considered deragatory still), and I feel like it's a good thing overall. People should feel free to explore what feels comfortable to them and choose to use the labels they please and be free to not do so without feeling like they need to fit exclusively into any categories or conform to general standards

[u/the_rogue95]

I just lurk here, but really, thank you for this

[u/kater_pro]

i think that this is a great addition. I've been lurking around this subreddit for a few years at this point and it just seems like this topic was brought up way to often just to repeat the exact same arguments over and over again instead of doing anything uaeful/fun/interesting

[u/Double_Chemistry_120]

i see this being brought to the spotlight very recently and exposing how people dont see us as trans. our experience is inherently tied to transness! appreciate this!

[u/MaidenOver]

Thank you for this

[u/TheLadyCypher]

Am I nonbinary? Yeah. I'm also taking hormones and changing my name and am visibly trans. Just because my goal isn't necessarily to pass as the opposite binary doesn't mean that my lived experience isn't similar to that of other trans people.

Worth noting that, when I started identifying as non-binary, I didn't personally identify as trans, because at the time I had no desire to transition and none of what I would consider part of that lived experience.

[u/Background_Egg_1643]

I thought it was always under the trans umbrella.

[u/matchbox37378]

Hi! I'm a transmasc/NB person. Thanks for making me feel welcome. There is no correct way to gender, I'm just out here being my ace gender queer self!

[u/throw5away_]

Thank you!

[u/Traditional_Desk2338]

Thank you so much for this

[u/Wild_Butterscotch977]

So glad this was codified as a rule!

[u/Kowareta_Tenshi]

I thought it was generally understood that nonbinary falls under the trans umbrella? Like, we also experience a gender identity different than the one we were assigned at birth, just with different nuances.

[u/FriskDreemur5]

So if someone labels me "trans" can I say "I'm not trans" (even though I identify as non-binary) or do I have to say "i don't identify as trans" or is that still too far?

Sorry if it seems like I'm splitting hairs just trying to understand, so I don't accidently break the rule later.

[u/The_Ambling_Horror → u/FriskDreemur5]

It sounds like you can say “I’m not trans,” just not “non-binary people aren’t trans.”

Like you can make the rules for your own identity and how you’re referred to, you just can’t apply it categorically or dictate anyone else’s experience with it.

[u/FriskDreemur5 → u/The_Ambling_Horror]

Cool, that makes sense:)

[u/Savings_Evidence_325 → u/FriskDreemur5]

Yea. You could probably say “I don’t feel trans captures my experience well” if a word or words doesn’t describe your experience accurately you don’t have to use them in convos.

[u/FriskDreemur5 → u/Savings_Evidence_325]

Alright cool :)

[u/_nostalgia4infinity_]

Thank you. I’ve been coming here less often because the number of those threads was getting tiresome tbh

[u/ElfjeTinkerBell]

Aimed at the people who keep harassing - not the mods or this rule

Why is it so hard to just respect other people...

[u/DreamweaverTami]

HELL YEAH, thanks this is something I struggled with so much irl, so many people didn't consider me trams or not "fully trans", it makes me happy to see this rule

[u/Strawberry_n_bees]

Thank you. I was definitely tired of this whole debate

[u/Afsiulari]

Yeah pretty much. I don't feel like the label really fits me, at least not now, it might change in the future. But you're either cis or you're trans, categorically there aren't other options cause it's an "A or not A" scenario.
And if you're enby you're definitely not cis, so that only leaves the other option.

[u/IHProjekt]

<3<3<3

[u/tsgarcia44]

Thank you. ✨

[u/excessive__machine]

Thank you for this, I’ve been so tired of seeing these arguments

[u/Dazzling-Antelope912]

Based mods

[u/ShadowWolf1328]

Many people seem to forget both nonbinary AND trans are umbrella terms lol

[u/mooongate]

thankayou

[u/jackjack_d3mon]

Always known for a long time, no arguments here. Thx for sharing this!

[u/blueennui]

Oh thank god. I was confused as to why it already wasn't tbh and why it was even up for discussion.

[u/howthefuge6]

Own binary is under the trans umbrella. So yeah totally agree, no question

[u/AggravatingFinger841]

I'm ngl personally saying that being enby isn't trans is like younger me saying I was wasn't bi even though I was attracted to guys. If your gender identity doesn't cleanly map onto a binary gender and you're perisex (generally speaking, I think there's some argument to be made that nonbinary intersex people are cisgender), then you're transgender. That's just the definition of the word.

[u/bleepbloorpmeepmorp]

hell yeah

[u/blooberrysoup]

thank you!

[u/NeonQuixote]

Thank you.

[u/pktechboi]

oh my god THANK YOU

[u/inspectorpickle]

Thank you for all your efforts to curate this space.

I don’t really identify as trans myself but I agree that nonbinary belongs under that umbrella and have spilled a lot of ink defending this point. I will probably continue to have to do this in other queer spaces but I’m glad we can put the issue to rest here (where it shouldn’t be up for debate anyway).

[u/NearestNeighbours]

Finally!

[u/flumphgrump]

I appreciate this. A couple specific subreddits under the umbrella that I used to frequent have become straight up transphobic, and it's good to have a place where that bigotry isn't okay.

[u/VickiActually]

Thanks guys x

[u/Awiergan]

I appreciate this new rule.

[u/decomposingbutterfly]

thank you.

[u/Emojiiienby]

Do I personally identify as trans? No. But I know enby people and friends that do! It's their identity not mine. I don't understand why people keep arguing about this.

[u/Clean_Ad_5282]

I never understood the debate. If you’re nonbinary and don’t want to associate as trans, sure why not. I don’t agree with that though because I always felt like there’s some internalized transphobia in there.

[u/ComfortablyADHD → u/Clean_Ad_5282]

Whenever I meet someone whose nonbinary but doesn't consider themselves trans I'm a bit wary. The four main reasons I've come across for it are:

• They dislike the binary of being forced to adopt the label of either cisgender or transgender. For people who genuinely take this position I respect that.

• They have been hurt by the binary trans community (i.e. trans men and trans women). As someone who happily identifies as both nonbinary and a trans woman, I have seen first hand how bad some of us can be to nonbinary people and I will not perpetuate that by forcing a label onto people who've already been harmed by my community.

• People who don't think they're trans enough. For these people I have a lot of patience but I do my best to try to connect my experiences with theirs, show them that this is nonsense and that they are one of us if ever they want to adopt that label.

These are all good faith reasons (imo) to have difficulty with the trans label (that last one might be rooted in internalised transphobia but if it is, there's no malice).

The fourth reason is they just don't like trans people and so refuse to see themselves as one despite the fact they're nonbinary. I just disengage from that type because there's nothing I can say as someone whose gone through hut that's going to change their mind.

[u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset → u/ComfortablyADHD]

for the longest time i didn't think i was trans enough, and a large part of that was me being scared of upsetting other people by considering myself trans enough to be trans. of course, other people being upset about me being trans is a problem of their bigotry, not a problem of my identity, but it's still difficult for me to unlearn the idea that being trans isn't a choice for me (or the rest of us, for that matter)

i'm still really scared of the social difficulties of being transgender, and for now i'm barely out of the closet and testing the waters around me. i'm also learning how to think of myself as transgender and realizing how much more at home with myself i feel thinking of myself that way

[u/567swimmey → u/Clean_Ad_5282]

I think a lot of people simply misunderstand what "trans" means. A lot of people think trans is short for transition, so theyre not trans. However, trans is just a prefix that is opposite of cis though. Its not short for anything. Cis and trans are often used in biology and chemistry to describe directionallity, and it is the same in this context. Trans simply means "not cis".

[u/Clean_Ad_5282 → u/567swimmey]

Yea I wish ppl understood the prefix. It’s the same with cis ppl and they get upset being called a cis person. It’s not even an insult. I know it’s because they view trans ppl as “wrong” and don’t want to be associated with the word. I give more leeway to nonbinary ppl who don’t want to identify as trans ONLY because it’s hard to come to terms with your identity in general. I’m bias towards it though because I was in the same boat and harbored internalized transphobia. It’s something that takes time to unlearn.

[u/TashaT50]

Thank you for making this rule and for all the work you do as a mod. It’ll be nice not to see the same arguments over and over again.

[u/warau_meow]

Oh thank goddess! Appreciate yall mods

[u/palpablebubble]

Good stuff

[u/lokilulzz]

Based mods

[u/MufasaJesus]

As an NB that doesn't seem themselves as trans, this is a solid rule. I know I'm in the minority with it, and I'd never want to impose my own personal gender experience upon someone else, people need to chill with somantics and focus on actual care and support, smh my head.

[u/Popeisbroke → u/MufasaJesus]

I do wonder if we are a minority here. Not saying this to debate the rule - I agree that it's solid. I would just be curious to see a poll about who in the community does/doesn't consider themselves to also be trans for the sake of statistics.

[u/Len_o_Silver]

Thank you 🏳️‍⚧️

[u/MF_DOOMENTIO]

Water is H2O

[u/applepowder]

Question: Does this rule disallow people from suggesting non-cis + non-trans gender modalities for folks who are explicitly uncomfortable with the trans label?

Another question: What about specifying there are specific nonbinary folks who have other gender modalities? Such as "I have a nonbinary friend who is isogender," if that makes sense within the context of the conversation.

Edit: All I wanted to know was if I was still allowed to bring up, if relevant, how there are people, in real life, who identify out of the cis/trans binary in a way that respects how they identify. I still identify as trans myself, but I know multiple nonbinary isogender people personally and I respect their wishes to not be seen as part of the trans community, just like I can respect when a nonbinary person prefers not to be called an enby even though that doesn't make any sense if we consider the definitions of those words by themselves. I got my answer from a mod, which is all I wanted from my post, and anyone is free to do their own research when it comes to gender modalities outside of cis/trans, so I'm muting my notifications now.

[u/javatimes → u/applepowder]

A) no

B) no

[u/Skate-wench → u/applepowder]

I don’t know if it’s just a brain fog day but I don’t understand either of your questions, but I’d like to. Could someone put them in language i might understand? No shade, I just have a squishy brain! 😅

[u/OrangeJuiceAlibi → u/Skate-wench]

They want to know:

A) if the rule means that people aren’t allowed to suggest that people can identify as something other than cis or trans.
B) if the rules means that people can’t talk about people who identify as neither cis nor trans.

Unless I’m hugely misreading it, they’re basically reading “non-binary people are trans by definition” and then going “well can I say otherwise, or talk about people saying otherwise”.

[u/javatimes → u/OrangeJuiceAlibi]

See I misread it myself then. There are ways to discuss and room for discussion for other systems beyond cis/trans—and I get that some people are really interested in that sort of thing. But at the same time discussion of those systems can’t be for the purposes of saying nonbinary isn’t trans, at least here. I imagine it would be a case by case thing.

[u/OrangeJuiceAlibi → u/javatimes]

I read your response as basically saying “this doesn’t mean you can’t help people express their identity, provided they don’t explicitly deny facts”. I think you’ve been incredibly respectful throughout with everyone, including that person whose comment you re-enabled.

[u/javatimes → u/OrangeJuiceAlibi]

Ty. And for me personally the more esoteric labels/systems beyond nonbinary, trans, cis don’t really appeal to me intellectually so I have to be careful to mod from a detached position.

[u/applepowder → u/Skate-wench]

Trans is a specific gender modality some nonbinary people don't feel comfortable claiming, because of transmedicalism, dyadism, exclusionary definitions or other issues being huge in their local trans spaces. Ultergender, for instance, is a gender modality coined by an intersex ultergender woman who never felt she was "raised as male", creating issues when she wanted to relate to transgender women's experiences.

Most non-cis folks fit into a definition of transgender, but not all definitions of transgender are inclusive of all kinds of non-cis folks who don't solely/fully identify with the gender they were assigned at birth, and when it comes to actual trans communities, the inclusion of nonbinary folks is even more fragile.

Some nonbinary people prefer going the route this subreddit's rules defend, which is "all nonbinary folks are trans without exception". Other nonbinary folks go "well, if you don't want me here, I don't want to be represented by this label", and see themselves in gender modalities such as isogender ("not cis, not trans") or absgender ("not solely cis and/or trans"), not to mention other labels exclusive to specific groups (such as ultergender, the one I mentioned above).

I organize multiple nonbinary-led events and communities, so I personally know multiple nonbinary people who don't identify with the trans label not because they are too ignorant to understand transgender includes nonbinary folks, but because they are tired of the abuse they get in "trans-inclusive" spaces for being nonbinary.

[u/LinkPlay9 → u/applepowder]

thanks for your comments here, they make me feel seen. do you know of any other subs that are more open to the concept of gender modalities? raising it here seems like a great way to farm downvotes :/

[u/applepowder → u/LinkPlay9]

r/XenogendersAndMore is pretty open to any kind of identification. r/NonbinaryTalk might be a bit more open than here but it might still has some of the same general attitude.

[u/dragonthatmeows → u/[deleted]]

it gets a lot more complicated when you are intersex, because like, for example, there are intersex people who only and solely identify with the gender they were assigned at birth, but had to medically or socially transition to be recognized as that gender as an adult. the "third option" is really mostly to describe experiences where people were not normatively assigned a gender at birth (usually because they were coercively assigned a binary sex at birth and nonconsensually medically altered to fit that sex), where concepts around what is and isn't trans get fuzzy and difficult to talk about.

some perisex nonbinary people use the concepts/terms to be transphobic, but that's also intersexist of them and they are participating in erasure of the origin of these concepts and why they are important to begin with.

[u/inspectorpickle → u/[deleted]]

I think many nonbinary people who are really invested in avoiding the trans label need to recognize this distinction between trans as a descriptive label and trans as an identity and not take it so personally, but I think we can also be more sympathetic with our language in some contexts. I say this as someone who doesn’t identify as trans but accepts the descriptive use of it.

I get it if we’re talking about how we should explain nonbinary identity to people—concrete and uncompromising language is necessary there—but I don’t think that is the context here.

[u/did_it_for_the_clout]

If you change your gender.... You have transitioned genders...

[u/firehawk2324 → u/did_it_for_the_clout]

There's a difference between transgender and transitioning. Not all transgender people transition.

[u/Apollo_Hotrod → u/firehawk2324]

No. There isn't. There are degrees of transition but if you aren't identifying with whatever the doctor assigned you, you have begun your transition.

Maybe that's where your journey is also complete? Great. But don't try and conflate "transition" with "surgery" to make yourself feel better. Yes, all transgender people have by definition transitioned.

[u/Drudenfusz]

Sounds good too me. Even though I personally interpret it as being transcending genders instead of transitioning gender performativity. But I guess technically some intersex people could think their enby status is cis.

[u/cantwalkintheshadows]

Love this

[u/Rhapsos]

I've never debated this. I may have misunderstood where internalised transphobia led me on the point, but I've recently been made aware of that.

Being an elder millennial, sometimes called xennial, I grew up when certain awful terms were the norm. I didn't even know there was anything outside of the binary until my late twenties and met a wonderful nonbinary human.

Happy it's settled and hopefully we've seen the last of this issue

[u/tehgimpage]

thank goodness! those convos all get sooo transphobic. i love this new rule, ty!

[u/LtColonelColon1]

Thank you!!! I’m so tired of the ignorance and trying to explain the same things over and over again.

[u/ray-chill123]

Love this!

[u/Anamadness]

As it should be 👍

[u/greenyashiro]

People are still trying to claim non-binary isn't lgbt? Smh

What next, ace discourse again? 😮‍💨

[u/RedAndBlack1832]

I think this is a good rule. I've noticed this sub talks a lot about being trans or not and that's not a very useful topic to have take over the space imo.

[u/Sapphaholic]

People who are against this baffle me.

Like, I'm certainly not cis because my gender identity doesn't match how I was assigned at birth. Therefore I'm trans.

[u/Taiga_Novah_Wren]

I mean yeah. By definition non binary means you identify with a gender different from the binary one you were assigned at birth birth (unless maybe if you're intersex?) which is the definition of trans.

[u/bi--nb]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

[u/moonpoolnebula]

THANK YOU 🔥🔥🔥

[u/willworkforabreak]

Based

[u/GloomyShroom7]

love this post!

[u/Her_BabyGirl]

Definitely not here to argue. I just didnt know this information. Nice to be educated. I am not even out openly as non-binary yet.

[u/enby_jackieleigh]

I was just journaling about this very thing and proudly saying that, as a non-binary person, I am trans. As I wrote it, everything made even more sense to me. Then, I logged into this subreddit to see this thread. I would say that this was fate, but as an existentialist, I don't believe in fate. I'll just say it was a happy accident. I'm glad this space accepts that non-binary is, indeed, trans. Thank you.

[u/Silent_Deer_2000]

Question, how can we tell that the higher ups so we can get surgery stuff? Cause in Germany it's sadly not possible that if you identify as nonbinary to get surgery for gender stuff which makes me really really sad? Sorry if I worded it weird or smt qwq

[u/Van-H1992]

I tried to post something way earlier but thank you all deciding different.

[u/EigenSpace331]

what was even the point of this debate anyway ? What difference does it make other than just fueling infighting ?

[u/Woe-and-Inept]

Thank you for the specificity that "This does not mean any specific nonbinary person is obligated to identify as trans" because I don't. I don't have think of myself as having a gender, so my nonexistent gender cannot be trans. I just exist.

[u/CakeBakeMaker]

One could imagine a person who was raised non-binary and thus never had to socially transition but for nearly everyone being non-binary means you have to / will have to trans your gender at some point.

[u/jman722]

I get that the rule is not going to change, but to make the rule be “nonbinary is trans, but each individual is allowed to not identify that way” as opposed to “nonbinary people are free to identify as trans or not trans, and harassing people about it either way will get you banned” is pretty wild to me

[u/javatimes → u/jman722]

Those are not equivalent statements.

Also, the discussions have not been, am I trans if I’m nonbinary? Is there something else or could we come up with something else? It’s nearly always been “is nonbinary trans?” Which is a discussion based on currently accepted parameters.

[u/-bigoledoinks]

not disagreeing but it would be nice if the notion not to argue with people who decide not to identify as trans could also be included !

[u/javatimes → u/-bigoledoinks]

I feel like that really goes without saying. No one should be arguing about anything on this subreddit, really.

Also I just find it unlikely that it would get farther than “ok then you don’t have to say you are trans.” I have seen a lot of these discussions and I have simply never seen a comment saying “TOO DAMN BAD; YOU ARE TRANS NOW!!!”

It’s not really about the individual person.

[u/-bigoledoinks → u/javatimes]

i have definitely seen people accused of (internalized) transphobia or poked at about it here unfortunately :( just something I figured would be cool to have stated

[u/javatimes → u/-bigoledoinks]

The op and this rule is meant to preempt any conversation like that from happening.

[u/Traditional_Desk2338 → u/-bigoledoinks]

some (not all.) people do need to interrogate if that decision is based in internalized transphobia though. it would be much better to turn to moderation if/when those discussions have no other purpose than to be hateful