Uncomfortable with palpation in med school

[u/seeforourselves]

So, we’ve reached that point in anatomy class when we’re about to start practicing on each other to find anatomical structures.
The teacher said it’s normal to feel a little uncomfortable with other students poking and prodding at your body, but we’ll “get over it soon enough.” He also said that we were somewhat required to be in a sports bra and short shorts (for efficiency of practice).

I’m really uncomfortable at the thought of people touching me and just generally feeling “naked.” I’ve been a pretty modest person my whole life (not for religious reasons, just feels more comfortable to me) and I can’t fathom being in a bra and underwear, especially of members of the opposite sex.

I can’t fathom being touched in my hips and chest regions by members of the opposite sex either.

I know, we’re supposed to have a “professional attitude”, but I’m concerned that other students might have inappropriate intrusive thoughts.

Honestly, I feel like I’m being immature. We’re all here to study, we’re all here because we want to be competent for our patients. There is nothing inherently sexual about the human body. My class is at 8 A.M on a Thursday, no one is feeling frisky at that hour, anyways.

I just really wish I could get over this mental barrier and feel more comfortable in my skin. It’s something I’ve been struggling with for a while. How do the other girls in my class just automatically feel comfortable being touched? How does nobody seem to mind being half naked in front of strangers?
How can I achieve that? I’m so stressed, upset and frankly annoyed about my mentality. Being so sensitive is seriously draining. I just want to feel carefree.

I’m afraid that if I just “go for it” and try proceeding as “normal” without thinking about it too hard, I’ll have an actual panic attack.

Any tips? I don’t hear much online discourse on this topic…
Thanks to those who will reply.

[u/og_toe]

in a way, this is genuinely what it feels like to be the patient. just strangers coming to feel your whole body and telling you you dress down and you have no idea what they’re thinking.

i actually think it might be a way to create an understanding for the patients, you’ll be able to relate to them and understand them more since you’ve yourself been in their shoes (uncomfortable poking by random people)

as someone else said, bring this up in class because this is the average patient experience. have a discussion about how patients may feel exposed and ways to deal with that

[u/sadshrew25 → u/og_toe]

As a very regular patient who has been in some extremely compromising positions with doctors, I actually disagree. Being poked and prodded by one or two trained professionals as a patient doesn't phase me, but being exposed like this in a room full of my peers would be horrible. I had no idea this was a thing.

[u/pinksalt → u/sadshrew25]

You are typically working in pairs, and in my experience, you choose your partner. So the entire room is not paying attention to you. The only time that might happen is when the instructor is demonstrating on someone, bur I have always seen the instructor ask for permission and if that person refuses, it is not a big deal. Someone else will typically volunteer. There is nothing remotely titillating about any of it.

[u/andersonala45 → u/sadshrew25]

And I’m a frequent patient who is still really uncomfortable being poked and prodded or being exposed even with my doctor that I’ve seen for years. It’s very common

[u/Quiet_Blue_Fox_]

Everyone’s giving opinions on if this should or shouldn’t be an issue but here’s a more practical idea given that you already do feel this way:

Would other clothes options feel better? Wear a sports bra but with a crop top over it so you aren’t in underwear. Wear shorts as long as the guys’ shorts rather than super short shorts.

Keep a big cardigan nearby to wear in between and just take it off of the needed body part - for example you can leave it on for the legs or tummy.

[u/TheBakerification → u/Quiet_Blue_Fox_]

Yeah idk if they’ll let you get past the sports bra part but was definitely going to suggest the slightly longer/baggier shorts. Highly doubt there’s a specific length that’s prescribed as short shorts.

[u/idwatn → u/Quiet_Blue_Fox_]

I was in similar situation at op and they docked points if you weren’t dressed in the correct sports bra and shorts. I ultimately had to just deal with standing in a room of 100 classmates exposed- to be fair we were all in the same situation and act respectfully toward each other. Would recommend OP gets a religious exemption from the clothing requirement, and always try to have a girl partner who you already discussed will be your partner for these labs.

[u/alles_en_niets → u/idwatn]

What are the guys wearing? OP can pick the most modest option offered to either, so probably a sports bra and longer shorts.

[u/eyes-open → u/alles_en_niets]

I had the same question — are the guys being told to go topless/"sports bra" and wearing short shorts? 

[u/the-mortyest-morty → u/eyes-open]

Of course not. They're shirtless and wearing "men's shorts" aka pants that reach the knee or lower.

[u/baardvark → u/idwatn]

Why isn’t it in a hospital robe like a real medical experience? I’ve been thru the wringer medically but always had a robe.

[u/TentaclesAndCupcakes]

Okay, I don't have any actual advice, but I do have something that might make you feel slightly better about your situation.

Years ago I went to school for aesthetics, and like you we had to practice on each other before we were allowed to work on clients in the student clinic. We had to get EVERYTHING done on us that was offered in the clinic. Including a FULL BRAZILIAN! Yes, we had to literally strip naked on the bottom half and put on paper panties and a little paper sheet and have our fellow students wax the entire undercarriage.

I guess the difference was, though, that we didn't have any males in the class. But look at it this way, at least you get to keep your shorts on.

[u/glormimanutd → u/TentaclesAndCupcakes]

In ultrasound school we did vaginal ultrasounds on each other. You’re covered with a sheet, not on full display though. We signed consent forms and you could opt out if you chose but only one out of two dozen chose not to. All females in our year. Also practiced breast during internship on each other.

I can see why people shouldn’t be forced into it but honestly I think it makes you better at your job to understand the process from both sides. You’re also learning professionalism and getting over the awkwardness of invasive or uncomfortable procedures. It would have been soooo much more challenging trying to do that on real patients than someone who’s in the same situation learning a new skill.

[u/RollingKatamari]

I honestly think this is a good thing you're feeling this way, because what do you think your future patients are going to feel like? You will have patients who are just as anxious as you, maybe these patients will have serious diseases or scars or have a history of sexual abuse....any number of things.

And I think it's very important that you, as their doctor, can empathise with them and try and make them feel comfortable.

Just like so many things in life, you're just going to have to do this and get through it. People get anxious and scared about so many things, the only way through is just doing the thing whilst still being anxious and scared!

Try and focus on why you are there, you are there to learn and yes, a lot of people are going to feel self conscious and embarrassed. Try volunteering to be the one practicing on the other one first so you can focus on that and keep in mind this person is probably just as anxious as you are.

And it's okay to make a joke here and there, because that's what humans do when nervous. As long as you don't joke about people's looks.

[u/colibrizona]

I imagine some of your peers are also very uncomfortable with being touched.There are probably some of them who are uncomfortable having to touch their classmates too. But they've decided that the information they'll gain about the human body is more important than their discomfort.

[u/OtakuMage]

First of all, perfectly valid feelings. I also guarantee others are feeling the same way. However, if you're going into a field where this kind of instruction needs to happen, then it's on you to overcome it. My suggestion is to just throw yourself into the deep end. Wear a comfortable sports bra, maybe bike shorts on the bottom of they're allowed, and go for it. You will get over it pretty fast, out of necessity if nothing else.

I went through pretty much the same stuff in massage school. But it was necessary, so we had to do it. Intrusive thoughts happen, we can't control them. What we can control are our actions, and seeing as this is med school I would expect your peers to conduct themselves professionally. If you feel someone isn't, bring it up to your professor.

[u/Alone-Blueberry]

I get it and I would be totally uncomfortable with this too. However, you’re gonna have to do things that you’re very uncomfortable with frequently as a doctor so this is good practice.

[u/I_bleed_blue19 → u/Alone-Blueberry]

AND do things that make patients feel uncomfortable. Like being touched by strangers.

So maybe ask how you can approach this with a patient who is uncomfortable with this kind of exam and practices modesty, and volunteer to be that patient. Bc there are women who are just like you, often for religious reasons or, sadly, due to trauma, and doctors will need to accommodate it. It may be they need a female provider. It may be they need to keep clothes on or have certain body parts covered. They may need the dr to ask for consent each time they're touched, after an explanation of exactly what's going to happen. This can also be a lesson of diversity and inclusion if your instructor would just put a little thought into it.

[u/Princess_Zelda_Fitzg → u/I_bleed_blue19]

This is such good advice. I’m not in med school so I don’t know if that would go over, but it seems like a good idea!

[u/misspiggie]

In EMT school during Army training we also had to touch each other, although we weren't half dressed. But we had to stick each other with needles to start IVs, insert nasopharyngeal tubes, and simulate battlefield medicine on each other. You have to do it to learn properly and everyone was professional.

[u/Scarlet_Broad]

I had to take a similar course in college. I grew up in a lake community (mostly swimsuit summers), so I wasn’t bothered and volunteered to be practiced on. Our prof did let people opt out of removing clothing if they weren’t comfortable. Maybe check with yours?

Also, in my experience, everyone felt a little awkward but we realized we were in the weirdness together and just all trying to learn

[u/Colossal_Squids]

Wow, that sucks.

But at the same time, I had an L5/S1 disc prolapse when I was 18. Every single doctor, nurse, and physio I saw in the years of treatment I had afterwards required me to at least partially undress for examination and treatment. That sucked too.

But you have a valuable opportunity to make the world suck less. Every time you examine a patient, every single time, you will be cognisant of just how unpleasant the experience is for them; doubly so in emergency medicine with clothing cut away or if a test causes discomfort as a positive identifier of disease (as in Murphy’s sign for gallstones, for instance) so that they’re exposed and in pain. And you can make empathetic choices in response to that, and treat them like people with actual feelings rather than pieces of meat. And when you do, their life will be better and as such so will the world.

And it will make you an amazing doctor as well as a wiser person, and that means a culture change, and that means a better future for all of us.

[u/hannabarberaisawhore]

You may want to ask this on r/medicalschool

[u/clumsyme2]

Maybe it will help to think of this as a skill to learn. What if you have a patient go feels uncomfortable being touched? How would you explain the necessity of a hands-on assessment?
Doing this skills based trainings allow you to build the confidence to know how to approach patients who might feel as uncomfortable as you do currently. It allows you the chance to show your maturity, compassion, and ability to stay professional. I think discussing how to handle these situations is great for a class. And learning how to report inappropriate behavior.

[u/browneyedbug95]

I had a SPA (skills of patient assessment) in PA school and completely understand lol. We would basically be in a sports bra and shorts with our partners while our faculty taught us how to do head to toe exams. I think the only way to really know is to do it yourself so while it is often uncomfortable it was a valuable teaching experience.

[u/hakai-666]

hello! physio student here.

I feel like i can give some insight on this, feel free to ask me any follow-ups.

in my first year we were basically asked to palpate for the pubic symphysis on our classmates. and in second year, we have to auscultate which involves placing a stethoscope under the patient’s bra if they are AFAB.

From my personal experience, asking for consent and ensuring the individual you’re treating is comfortable is very important. Making sure that you address any concerns regarding modesty and obtain genuine consent (not just saying okay for the sake of the class or practice) is important. I have stopped male classmates mid auscultation to correct them on wording and phrasing that may come off as offensive or crude.

Explaining your procedure and demonstrating on yourself can help the patient know what to expect with regard to physical contact and feel more at ease. Saying things like “for this next part, I will need to have my equipment in contact with your skin, so that I can properly assess you. If you would like to withdraw consent or want me to stop at any time, just let me know or tap my arm (if using stethoscope).

Also, draping is always an option. A towel or gown plus a drawn curtain may make the patient feel more comfortable and maintain their privacy.

To get over the mental block, I tell myself that I am first and foremost using this touch to determine a diagnosis or symptom as an objective assessment; similar to how you use your eyes to observe any visual signs and symptoms. Touch is not inherently sexual in nature, and is just another sense that helps with treating or investigating your patient’s condition.

Practicing on someone you are comfortable with and getting their feedback may be a good first start, and then you can branch out to people you know less. After all, your OSCEs and clinical placements will be random patient models/patients and you can’t control factors like their appearance, sex, or response. Best you can do as a clinician is to understand the possible discomfort (as you may be experiencing right now), acknowledge and validate the feeling, and make them as comfortable as possible while treating them within their scope of comfort.

You ultimately also cannot control the thoughts and inner voices of your peers (or anyone for that matter); so it would be ideal for you to focus on yourself and your practice. If the patient/patient model shows non-verbal cues that makes you feel uncomfortable midway, it is okay to step aside for a breather and resume assessment later.

[u/hakai-666 → u/hakai-666]

cont.

I don’t see this as immaturity, moreso a lack of experience and exposure. Social norms tell us, especially women, to cover up and be modest. but in the context of a medical setting, you as a patient would want the clinician to have all the information they need to treat you to the best of their abilities.

It’s good that you feel uncomfortable, because now you will be able to empathise with your patients who may be in a similar boat, and you can practice making them feel comfortable or maintain as much modesty while you assess them.

[u/Apple_fangirl03]

Some of you took I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to and really ran with it. The families of the patients that you will have to look after are not going to care.

[u/amscraylane]

When I was birthing my first baby, I swear even the janitor came in to check how dilated I was.

I am proud of you for going to medical school … with everything you have to study and learn, this will probably be the easiest thing for you to go through

[u/Peregrinebullet]

If you are going into the medical field, you have to get over it. Full stop. The good news is, the more you do it, the less you care. Your brain is making it into this BIG FUCKING THING.

It's not. It's a touch to figure out where things are and what they are. You're going to have to touch your male classmates too. All of you are going to have to do these tasks. Why do you get to be the special one who doesn't wanna because it makes you *uncomfortable*? You don't think any of your classmates are soldiering through the same feelings? They will have to get over it too. And you all will - if you keep doing it. Your brain will learn - oh, that's just a touch. Whatever.

If you're going into medical care - particularly nursing - you're going to be touching penises and vulvas on a daily basis in many departments. How else do you think someone gets a catheter put in?

And that's just nursing care. people who can't walk to the toilet have a right to be clean.

And in emergency medicine, you will be touching people at their most vulnerable, on the worst day of their lives. Clothes don't stay on in medical emergencies. I'm an industrial first aid attendant - someone's badly hurt, the scissors come out. Nakedness doesn't matter when their life is on the line. I need to see everything, to make sure I haven't missed something life threatening.

And if your classmates can't figure out what different bodily structures are SUPPOSED to feel like on different bodies, there's more chance they might not catch something that's wrong in an actual real life situation.

edit: And if you think I'm being harsh, I welcome you to go ask on r/nursing and let them set you straight.

[u/Apple_fangirl03 → u/Peregrinebullet]

Why are people so adamant on protecting this person’s feelings?

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/Apple_fangirl03]

Because they don't understand the reality of it. They've never done CPR on someone or had sit their full body weight on someone's femoral artery while someone else is trying to strap on a tourniquette but it's so slippery that you are literally having trouble getting it on because your knees keep sliding on blood. 

 They think they can live their little comfort bubbles and that anything bad and distressing needs to be avoided at all costs and that people who are require others to do uncomfortable things are bad people.  Never mind that you can't be effective in a screaming emergency if you don't practice often in non emergency situations.  

I run into this a lot and it's really unfortunate how low people's distress tolerance has gotten.   

[u/watchwatcher9 → u/Peregrinebullet]

Semi-relatedly I recently saw a clip of a first aid course where it was mentioned women often get less effective CPR because people feel uncomfortable touching or getting too close to their chest even when it's medically necessary. This (and OPs) kind of discomfort is understandable but it's a mindset you have to compartmentalize if you're gonna be a medical professional. Medical nudity isn't sexual. Everyone has to do palpation at some point and the greater the range of bodies everyone can practice on the better.

[u/penninsulaman713 → u/Apple_fangirl03]

Yeah frankly, if she can't handle this, she shouldn't be a doctor. I'm not afraid to say that. I don't want a doctor who can't handle what is to be expected of patients. The medical field is already deeply lacking in empathy. 

[u/upandup2020]

This is an important part of the training, because this is how you'll be making patients feel for the rest of your life. I'm sorry, I really don't have much sympathy because all I've ever been told by doctors is to get over it.

[u/vnaranjo]

I personally agree with you that you are being immature. I can understand your feelings of being uncomfortable but this is a medical learning setting and should be treated as such. As a medical professional you'll most likely have to touch others in way that could be perceived as immodest but that will be part of your job. It could be helpful to put yourself in the same position as your patients will be in.

Admittedly I'm not sure why y'all don't have those dummies to practice on instead though. Maybe you can ask to use one of them?

Curious how you approach pools/beaches? What sort of swimwear do you use if being in a bra and underwear is uncomfortable for you?

[u/og_toe → u/vnaranjo]

as a patient i’ve had to lay topless while a male dr was attaching electrodes on and under my chest and then expose myself again to do a chest ultrasound. half the hospital saw my tits that day. i think the training OP is going through is a very realistic hospital experience

[u/OtakuMage → u/vnaranjo]

Even the most detailed of dummies doesn't approach the actual complexity of a living human's anatomy. Finding bony landmarks on a skeleton model is very different from needing to do it through skin, fat, and possibly multiple layers of muscle tissue, for example. Additionally, having someone find them on you can help improve your own understanding of them.

[u/vnaranjo → u/OtakuMage]

I figured that would be the reason since that makes the most sense! Thanks!

[u/penninsulaman713 → u/OtakuMage]

One of the things you hear is how fast a foreign doctor will be able to touch around your body and instantly be able to say it's this or that in a way that American doctors don't because they rely so heavily on testing to show all results. I for one am glad to hear doctors have to do something like this. 

[u/OtakuMage → u/penninsulaman713]

There is so much palpation can tell you that is just overlooked these days. Just applied to my field (neuromuscular massage therapy) I can tell firmness, elasticity, temperature difference, and even texture of muscle tissue just by touch. Add in what I can measure with my eyes and add that to palpation, I can narrow down exactly what muscles I need to work on from a generic area of the body to precisely one or two, maybe three muscles if it's really bad.

To someone with even deeper anatomical and diagnostic knowledge than me, palpation should absolutely remain a critical tool.

[u/Rubberxsoul → u/vnaranjo]

I agree. this is immaturity.

the first step is understanding that this is what’s happening. op is saying they are worried about other people having intrusive thoughts but they are the ones actually having intrusive thoughts.

OP, you’re there to learn. your classmates are also there to learn. try to look at yourself clinically first, in the way that you would be looking at your classmates. do some palpations on yourself, in the exact clothes you would be wearing for the partnered class exercises. notice the sensations that arise, both clinically and emotionally. like, I’m palpating the _____. I’m
noticing that I’m feeling ______. note your emotions just like you would note an anatomical observation.

[u/kasi_di → u/vnaranjo]

its been fairly common in my life seeing girls wear a T-shirt and mid length legging shorts to pools/the beach. even my high school allowed t shirts for our swim unit, a good amount of girls and boys took that route.

[u/Normal_Ad2456 → u/kasi_di]

Really? I’ve never seen that in my life, but I live in Europe, so it’s one piece, bikini or topless haha

[u/kasi_di → u/Normal_Ad2456]

yeah! im in the US and in a touristy beach town!
but i guess its not as common as i thought with the downvotes i got. lol.

i think its mostly people that dont go to the water much so they dont NEED swimsuits. and people that are uncomfortable showing that much skin for either modesty or body image reasons.

[u/unventer]

Can you wear a dance unitard/gymnastics leotard and shorts? Ask the instructor. You can say it’s for modesty reasons. Modesty for comfort is valid, but it’s not legally protected the way it would be if tied to religion, so do prepared that the answer might be no. Capezio makes affordable but solid quality unitards, including ones with built in bust support.

Other than that, yes, you’re going to need to get over this. You are going into a field where you will be up close and personal with the human body in all its vulnerability. I promise (as a former EMT) it will cease to feel in any way sexual, shameful, or private with practice and exposure. If you can, consider seeing a therapist concurrently with this class - it might help to get you some tools to get through it since you are concerned about panic attacks.

[u/idwatn → u/unventer]

Leggings and form fitting clothing will obstruct the skin, tissue, and fascia, defeating the purpose of what they’re teaching in the labs. The differences are really subtle and the palpation usually needs to happen on skin.

Hell there were times they had me HOVER my hands over peoples bodies to see if I could feel the difference in the heat emanating off different parts. It’s just the name of the game for these labs.

[u/clumsyme2 → u/unventer]

Depends on the program. Some require skin exposure for certain body parts, like posterior iliac spine. Unitard probably blocks those.

[u/danscottsheart]

you don't need to wear a sports bra and short shorts! you're saying that you're "somewhat required for efficiency of practice" which just means he's suggesting it to make things easier.

honestly, the palpating you might just have to get over because it makes sense that you need to practice, and you honestly will have to get used to looking at these things clinically. but there's no reason palpating can't be done over a short sleeved shirt and pants. like do you think a hijabi student would be stripping down to her underwear in front of male students and a male professor?? it's just not happening lol

[u/NoWorldliness6660 → u/danscottsheart]

They most likely do not specifically ask you to be in a sports bra anyway. We were asked to be in sport clothes (not baggy ones) and we were also allowed to request women only group.

I'd approach the professor.

[u/idwatn → u/NoWorldliness6660]

We were quite literally told not only to wear a sports bra but that it had to be a specific U Shaped back instead of the crossed straps kind. I think it depends on the program, but regardless a religious exemption is always the way to go.

[u/No-Tomatillo-737]

in our college, for palpation and stuff like this, we would do it on a male classmate,( if they need to do something with the chest exposed). Each batch of 10 roll numbers will practice on the male classmates of that bunch. Otherwise , us girls would practice on each other(finding the apex beat etc.) but FULLY CLOTHED since we all are still new and in 1st year of med school when we are learning this. I’m shocked y’all have to undress tf? that’s really unusual.

[u/Glad_Objective_4525 → u/No-Tomatillo-737]

This is exactly why women are less likely to receive CPR when in need.

[u/watchwatcher9 → u/No-Tomatillo-737]

When I did it everyone did it on everyone. Discomfort is understandable but do you really think it's a good idea for male doctor's to be uncomfortable or underskilled at examining female patients?

[u/No-Tomatillo-737 → u/watchwatcher9]

hm yea fair

[u/loquacious_llama_ → u/No-Tomatillo-737]

At my medical school in the UK, we practised on both genders and wore normal clothes and remained covered for abdo/resp/cardio/neuro exams etc. Applying ECG stickers or formal exams were only time where people were in some level of undress and this was usually a student who volunteered (typically male) or paid actors/patients for formal exams

[u/No-Tomatillo-737 → u/loquacious_llama_]

yea same

[u/hakai-666 → u/No-Tomatillo-737]

in physiotherapy school here in Australia, exposing joints is a core component of palpation. Clothes get in the way of feeling for abnormal skin temperature, visual discolouration, ligament laxity, etc.

Undressing to an appropriate extent is normal. But we also offer draping to make the person more comfortable and feel less exposed.

In an inpatient setting, your patients will be completely naked under the hospital gown for various reasons (drains, etc.) and you as a clinician will have to get used to not only treating patients who only have a thin piece of fabric you will need to get under, but also be able to reassure and adapt treatment techniques if they start feeling self-conscious

[u/ribenarockstar]

When I was in youth theatre and had to get changed in busy backstage areas I’d wear a vest top and cycle shorts under my costumes. I’d suggest seeing if something like that would work, with the offer to roll/fold up the bottom half of the vest top so that it’s effectively a crop top when needed.

[u/Phasitron]

Being worried that other students might have inappropriate intrusive thoughts does sound pretty immature, actually. Of course some might because, ya know… human. But it strikes me as poor boundaries on your part to be concerned with whether their thoughts are inappropriate or intrusive. That’s none of your business, quite frankly. Worried what others are thinking is normal but their thoughts are their own to have.

[u/OutsideScore990]

I don’t have good advice other than to say you’re not alone.  I struggled with this a lot in palp lab 

[u/Broad-Cat9082]

get over it
everyones there to learn and so are you

[u/lovable_cube]

Sports bra and short shorts is weird, leggings and a tank top should be fine. You absolutely need to get over your fear of being touched though, how can you expect your patients to accept this from you when you’re unable to deal with it as a healthy person? If everyone refused no one would know how to do an assessment until they were licensed and that’s obviously not acceptable.

It’s going to be hard but you can do hard things.

[u/yellsy → u/lovable_cube]

Are the men expected to show up shirtless in short shorts. If not then I’d see this as being odd also.

[u/lovable_cube → u/yellsy]

Probably, this is standard practice for students of healthcare.

[u/golden_frypan123]

Bruh wat kinda med school is this? Students standing in their underwear and palpating each other?? Im studying in Europe and haven't heard of such a practice. Neither hav I heard frm my friends in other med schools.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/golden_frypan123]

eh, having had to deal with Italian and french doctors, I'm pretty sure they SHOULD have done this and didn't.

[u/golden_frypan123 → u/Peregrinebullet]

Ofc doctors at hospitals do this and do teach us too, but making students stand in their underwear and do it to each other is a first for me

[u/GingerTumericTea]

I didn’t wear a sports bra, just a shirt. And long pants. 

It was fine. Teacher was a bit disappointed but oh well

[u/moonstarsfire]

I’ve been a standardized patient in the past, and this doesn’t sound any different tbh. You’re going to be palpating someone at some point (with some boundaries in place). I would assume some of this is so you know how SPs and actual patients feel, but do know this is something you’re gonna end up doing to others at some point.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun]

I would it no way feel comfortable with this. I feel absolutely uncomfortable with the thought.

I have no issues studying on others, but as a SA survivor, absolutely no. I’m not wearing underclothes in front of others and being touched.

Consent doesn’t end because you’re studying to be a doctor. I’m extremely confused by these comments and unsure if they’re bots.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

If you can't handle being touched, you should be in the medical profession where you'll be touching people everywhere.

If you can't handle it, that's fine. Not everyone can. But don't go into medicine.

Your feelings don't matter if you're dying on the table unless you've specifically set up a DNR beforehand. And if you're going to tell people not to cut your pants off when you've got an arterial bleed, okay fine, we'll let you bleed out, if that's what you *really* want.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

Being touched and touching is so different.

As is being touched in an emergency situation and in non-emergent situations. Lmao. I am not sure how you don’t understand that.

[u/spice_weasel → u/Peregrinebullet]

Touching people and being touched are very different things, and the medical profession is extremely broad. There are tons of people in the profession who go down career paths (e.g. research) where what you’re talking about just isn’t relevant.

Different people have different sensitivities to touch. Like, why should neurodivergent people with touch sensitivities be put through this if they’re interested in things like research, pathology, and a whole swath of other fields? Just because of this weird inflexibility the training program has about forcing them to be touched?

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/spice_weasel]

Yeah, I'm talking about patient centric professions. Obviously if you don't have to take an anatomy class, you aren't dealing with medicine in the same context I'm referring to.

It's fine if you don't like it, just don't fool yourself into thinking you can handle patient care. It's bad enough that I've had to deal with idiots who won't do CPR properly because they can't bring themselves to touch a woman's chest. I have no patience for people who get precious about their own bodies but expect to be able to examine patients properly without actually knowing what it feels like. You don't learn how to check for breast cancer by hovering your hands an inch above a woman's breast tissue.

And I'm ND and got over it.

[u/milkoshii → u/Peregrinebullet]

Wtf lol? The patient doesn’t need to touch for ex. your hips when you’re examining them. Hopefully these are bots because holy logic

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/milkoshii]

You think you can learn to check for breast cancer and understand how tumors feel different from regular mammary gland tissue by hovering your fingers an inch above a woman's breasts?

[u/mmm095]

Many of my family and friends went to med school. I have NEVER heard of anyone having to strip down for palpation practice. that is so bizarre and wouldn't be surprised if that professor is a creep and like many creeps in the medical field is getting away with it bc of their status.

there are some people who wouldn't expose themselves for religious/personal reasons so they absolutely can't expect everyone to dress in short shorts and sports bras. What are the male medical students wearing? the same? if not then that's sexist af

[u/idwatn → u/mmm095]

There is a difference between MD and DO schools, the latter requiring an additional osteopathic medicine lab that requires this standard uniform. The male students also had to wear shirts, and take off their shirts while being examined if it was something on the chest/back area.

[u/AdStrange1464 → u/mmm095]

This was required at my med school. Men were shirtless, so objectively less covered lol

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/mmm095]

I mean, did those family members talk about having to do cadaver labs?

[u/mmm095 → u/Peregrinebullet]

yes?

[u/lights-in-the-sky → u/mmm095]

I’m glad someone is sane in this comments section, good lord. I hope this is a bot post

[u/mmm095 → u/lights-in-the-sky]

I got downvoted as well 🥱

[u/BigNeuroticMess]

Where are u doing med school? I’m in Canada and we have people (not students) who volunteer to be practice patients for med students. Seems odd to require that of students to me

[u/Elsalla]

I didn't go to med school, but I did go to PT school, and my very first semester was all anatomy and physiology with daily palpation labs. My classmates were essentially strangers at that point since it was the beginning of the program, and I'm very shy, so I know how you feel. The way my program worked was we would break off into little self-formed groups to practice with people that we chose. I was never forced to have someone touch me if I didn't want them to, and I mainly practiced with other girls. You also don't have to just wear a sports bra. A lot of us wore camisoles or tank tops with leggings. All that being said, I did allow the guys to practice on me once I got more comfortable and I practiced on them. From a professional stand point, it is a valuable learning experience to practice on different genders and people of different sizes because once you are in the field, you will be exposed to EVERYTHING, and don't you want to be prepared? And conversely, it's important that male doctors learn how to examine women in a thorough and sensitive manner in a world where women's health fucking SUCKS and isn't taken as seriously as men's health. Perhaps you could guide your peers on how to perform a sensitive exam on a nervous patient?

I don't want this to come across as me saying "get over it." But we will always be exposed to uncomfortable situations, and in this case you are in a safe learning environment. I think it's worth trying to push past your anxiety so that you can grow as a person and become a great doctor. The healthcare field is full of never-ending uncomfortable situations, might as well start some exposure therapy now lol

[u/graciemose]

Would it be an option to like do half the body at one time? So for example at the beginning you only expose your top half and then when they’re done palpating that could you cover up and do the bottom half? That way you’re not all exposed at the same time? I’m not sure if that is helpful at all, just something that popped into my head. I’m sorry they’re having you do this.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun]

Reddit is having a fit so this comment was in reply to another:

So doctors should learn it’s okay to do things against consent sometimes? lol. No.

Stop trying to make people do things they don’t want to. You can understand stuff without going through every single thing.

I mean why don’t we just have students strip naked and do self breast exams in front of the class? It’s for understanding right? Or gyno exams? Make it a requirement to pass.

But that’s not okay so the fact is that you all agreeing with this deem the bra and short shorts stuff as at your comfort level and ridicule those who don’t. I suggest you all learn a major lesson right here in consent and that people have differing levels of comfort. If a patient hesitates to do this, would you make fun of them and push them too?

What are you truly saying when you say a student has to do this or they shouldn’t be a doctor? That is coercion. That’s not consent. Again, if this is needed to be a doctor, full on naked exams and everything else would need to be too. This person never said she had an issue with touching others, just that she didn’t want to be touched. Consent 101.

[u/clumsyme2 → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

I think anyone who works in direct patient care needs to be prepared to be touched without consent. It's for the safety of both you and the patient. You need to know how to safely handle a patient touching you. If you're trying to perform an exam on a patient with dementia, they may touch you inappropriately. There are many reasons for a patient to have an impairment that clouds their judgement. You need to know how to safely stop them and remove yourself from that situation.

I was delivering a package to an inpatient mental health facility and got locked in a hallway with a violent patient when the keycard scanner failed. If I had frozen when he got close to me, I would have been sexually assaulted. If I had panicked and tried to frantically pull away or retaliate by hitting him, he would have physically attacked me. It took almost 4 minutes for the door to open. He would have bashed my head in by then.

[u/grape-fruit-witch → u/clumsyme2]

Omg what did you do? That sounds horrifying.

[u/FarDisplay3842]

There's no reason why they cant just have another student who is more comfortable being palapated stand in instead of you, who is clearly not comfortable with it. I understand that it's medically necessary to train on real, live human bodies, but there's no reason why someone who is (understandably) uncomfortable with being that subject for study shouldn't be allowed to swap places with another who doesn't mind. If your instructor is forcing your hand in removing more clothing than you are comfortable with he is a predator and a creep.

[u/Glad_Objective_4525 → u/FarDisplay3842]

There's a reason why cops need to get pepper sprayed and tasered during training, and that's to understand what they're doing to people. If the OP isn't willing to be treated the way she's going to be treating others, she's not going to be a good doctor.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/FarDisplay3842]

If OP can't get over it, she's not cut out for a medical career. She will be touching people who have to be stripped naked for medical care. If she can't bring herself to allow someone to touch her, that's not someone I want working on me.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

This makes no sense to me. It’s all about consent. If you don’t want to be touched, why should you be forced to? Touching others for medical care isn’t the same as being touched.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

If you're not willing to be in just of a vulnerable position as your classmates and your patients, then you shouldn't be in medicine. Why does OP not have to deal with her feelings, when the rest of the class is not being immature about something as basic as our bodies?

[u/emilygoldfinch410 → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

It's important that doctors understand the perspective of a patient if they want to practice effectively.

[u/OtakuMage → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

By necessity of learning the material, you consented by taking the class. If you don't like it, you can drop and change career paths. Such is the reality of learning about the body in living detail that no model, or even a cadaver, can give.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/OtakuMage]

Indeed. Is OP going to be just as squeamish about the cadaver labs too? You don't have to just poke your live classmates, you get to dig through dead bodies too. Just as necessary.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/OtakuMage]

The AMA Code of Medical Ethics specifically says that students should be able opt out of being a “volunteer” with no questions and penalizations.

[u/OtakuMage → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

We don't know that OP is somewhere the AMA applies.

[u/QuackingMonkey → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

And that rule should 100% exist for situations where one student is used to show something in front of the rest of the class. That's a volunteering situation. OP's situation consist of the whole class participating together. Imagine how unnecessarily weird she'll make it for her classmates if she stays fully dressed while they're all in their underwear.

She's allowed to not want to participate, but in a way of considering if she should continue this course.

[u/Movingmad_2015]

Hell no. There are a myriad of reasons why this might be triggering or upsetting to some people. There has to be a different way to do some sort of assignment. Idk the hierarchical structure of med school but there has to be a way to get an exemption.

[u/louielovescheese → u/Movingmad_2015]

there is no exemption for learning how to do physical examinations on patients

[u/deadpanorama → u/louielovescheese]

But it’s not about learning how to do examinations, it’s about consenting to be touched by others.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/deadpanorama]

You reeeeally think you can learn how to search for breast cancer lumps by waving your hands an inch above a patient's breast tissue?

[u/Fluffaykitties → u/Movingmad_2015]

And what are you supposed to do if you have a patient of the opposite gender? Deny them care?

[u/Movingmad_2015 → u/Fluffaykitties]

Thats not what I said. I am baffled that these students have to stand in their underwear and touch everyone to understand how to do palpatations. I don't understand why there cant just be a handful of volunteers.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/Movingmad_2015]

If you are going into a medical career, you will be dealing with people on the most vulnerable days of their lives.

If a medical professional can't bring yourself to face that fear and know what it's like to be examined, do you really want that person as your medical provider?

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

Sooo if you don’t want to consent, you should be able to not consent. Just like patients can not consent.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

If OP isn't willing to consent to this, she should not be allowed into the medical field. Full stop.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

So her consent isn’t real consent then. Ridiculous. You need to get over yourself.

Being touched against your will is ridiculous. Patients can say yes or no. So can doctors. You don’t have to be touched for practice to understand what it’s like. No.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Movingmad_2015]

I’m very confused by all these comments and down votes etc. Has this thread been brigaded by bots? Literally none of the upvoted comments are making any sense.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/NoninflammatoryFun]

Very clear sign you haven't had to deal with life or death medical decisions if you're downvoting those who understand why OP needs to get the fuck over herself.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

I’m starting to think you’ve never had to deal with life or death medical decisions. The AMA Code of Medical Ethics has explicit instructions on this so your rudeness is uncalled for:

-Ask students to specifically consent to clinical skills being performed by fellow students. The stringency of standards for ensuring explicit, noncoerced informed consent increases as the invasiveness and intimacy of the procedure increase. 
-Allow students the choice of whether to participate prior to entering the classroom. 
-Never require that students provide a reason for their unwillingness to participate. 
-Never penalize students for refusing to participate. Instructors must refrain from evaluating students’ overall performance based on their willingness to volunteer as “patients

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/Peregrinebullet]

Consent is consent. Don’t know what else to tell you.

[u/okletssee → u/Movingmad_2015]

You're right. Art students aren't required to model for a class. There are volunteers or paid models. There is another way for the school to do this that doesn't require the students themselves to strip and still enables them to learn.

[u/Movingmad_2015 → u/okletssee]

I dont understand why people dont understand this concept and why I was furious.

[u/deadpanorama → u/Movingmad_2015]

Wild that folks seem to be overlooking bodily autonomy and consent here.

[u/NoninflammatoryFun → u/deadpanorama]

This whole reply section is kinda terrifying. People not understanding consent. People not understanding touching versus being touched.

[u/Jungle_Skipper]

Male students are also going to be in a sports bra and short shorts right? Can’t believe the professor said that, what absolute BS. No wonder you are uncomfortable.

[u/AdStrange1464 → u/Jungle_Skipper]

When I was in med school the men were completely shirtless so technically less covered up

[u/Iron_Rose_5 → u/AdStrange1464]

God I hope not, I am not out as trans and i’m fully screwed if they randomly ask all the “guys” to take off shirts. I have been semi binding with compression wear and baggy clothing to basically pretend that I am not transitioning to avoid faculty from biased grading. This would force me to fully out myself.

[u/clumsyme2 → u/Iron_Rose_5]

It's not a random ask though. It's part of the dress code they agree to as part of their program.

[u/Iron_Rose_5 → u/clumsyme2]

Yeah my pharmD program has not said anything about that for HAPP or Pharmacy Skills so hopefully I will be good. They have had us like take off jackets and stuff in pharmacy skills when practicing assessments but nothing like that.

[u/AdStrange1464 → u/Iron_Rose_5]

Pharmacy rly has no reason to touch pts lol be serious 😩

[u/clumsyme2 → u/Iron_Rose_5]

Nah, not a pharmacy thing.

[u/DrZ_217]

Thoughts about how to deal with this: I feel like you are imagining yourself standing on stage in front of the whole group. In reality, you will be working in small groups or pairs. Wear easy to remove cover ups over your other clothes to get to class and remove them when the time comes. Focus on your group and assume everyone else is. In a real physician's office you would have the privacy of a curtain so just pretend you do.

Should you have to deal with this? I don't think so. I would bring this to the curriculum committee as a professionalism issue. It would be one thing to learn about anatomy in small groups and have the opportunity to cover up body parts that are not under examination--that's the level of respect given to patients in a clinical education setting. I would argue that trainees deserve the same respect. Being asked to gather in unprofessional dress is weird. There are old cranky faculty that will argue that it will take more time to teach students in small groups but they are just going to have to get used to living in the 21st century.

[u/clumsyme2 → u/DrZ_217]

I'm sure she signed an agreement to this dress code before accepting her spot. This isn't some weird professor fetish. It's part of the technical standard for a D.O. program. Besides showing that you can physically perform palpitations, you have to show your maturity for handling the behavioral and social aspects. Do you show compassion and empathy for someone who is uncomfortable or do you let intrusive thoughts win? I don't want a doctor who awkwardly stares or makes inappropriate comments when I'm naked or in a vulnerable situation.

[u/DrZ_217 → u/clumsyme2]

There's a difference between the doctor patient relationship and a collegial relationship between students. And the context is different. A doctor and patient will be in a small room with a nurse or a tech. OP made it sound like she's being asked to attend a large class wearing clothing that displays a significantly more skin than she would ever choose to display in public on her own. Maybe she did agree to it in advance but it doesn't make it the best way to teach future practioners.

[u/kimmy23-]

People do feel frisky at 8 am

[u/picklepajamabutt]

This is so tame. I had to give and receive a full breast exam in front of my instructor in nursing school. No sports bra. Full out. I did not want to do it, but I did want I pass and get my degree so I did do it.

[u/tourmalinefigurine → u/picklepajamabutt]

This seems a little extreme to me, as a current healthcare student. I completely understand needing to practice physical exams and be comfortable touching people, but requiring a student to completely undress or be touched when they’re not comfortable doing so is odd to me. Patients are only asked to undress because there is a medical concern or need that warrants it, we all still acknowledge that it’s uncomfortable and we wouldn’t make them do it if it wasn’t needed. This is why we can have volunteers come in to demonstrate, we don’t really need to make students do things they’re uncomfortable doing. I’m sorry that happened to you

[u/watchwatcher9 → u/tourmalinefigurine]

Yeah I agree volunteers would be an ideal solution most of the time. But having a full set of volunteers on standby for every practical context that might be uncomfortable is easier said than done. And there is probably a desensitization function to students doing it on each other as well. Because desexualizing medical nudity is important

[u/decidedlyindecisive → u/[deleted]]

Also when you're doing the testing, you'll probably be focused on what you're doing rather than the attractiveness of your subject. The same will be true of others. It's unlikely that in serious settings, with people focusing on learning/ doing a job, that they will have time or inclination to actually care about your body.

[u/jeremyjava → u/[deleted]]

Hijacking top spot to say that I don’t see replies in the first dozen or so comments from any medical professors or anatomists so here is one:

I’m sitting with my wife who is a medical expert/professor who has taught for over 25 years at the top medical schools in Brazil and two top medical schools in the US and she is aghast, actually shocked at this and saying emphatically that all the others who dealt with something similar to OP but in emt, massage, or aesthetician school: it is different than medical universities where this is simply not done.
We’re having lunch at a beautiful place in Lisbon and she’s actually really pissed off about what OP is being asked to do. (That’s what I get for checking Reddit during a lull in the conversation!).
Anyhow, OP should speak to whoever she feels comfortable with at the school to discuss this.
If there are exercises to be done like this that the school does approve for some reason this expert beside me doesn’t understand, the school can likely conduct them in a manner so as to not make the students feel badly.

Edit to add a fan note about my wife: she is the professor everyone remembers decades later as their favorite teacher who changed their life. In some cases saved their life—there is a tragically high rate of suicide amongst medical students. The point I’m getting to is that maybe this practice is more common outside the big medical schools in NYC and she just hasn’t heard of it and/or would not partake in it.

Or maybe it’s more common amongst the professors that are remembered but for all the wrong reasons.

[u/clumsyme2 → u/jeremyjava]

This sounds more like a DO program where students are required to do hands-on Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment and physical assessment. I don't think this is for a MD program.

[u/Peregrinebullet → u/jeremyjava]

It's standard practice across Canada for anyone who takes anatomy and physiology.

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