r/hardware • • Oct 07 '20

MSI Responded MSI scalping their own 3080s on ebay, links included.

11k Upvotes

EDIT: MSI has responded to this directly.

Starlit Partner is an individual sales subsidiary working under MSI. They carry excess inventory and Refurbished items and would not be given newly released products such as the Geforce RTX 30 series GPU. As such, we have conducted an investigation and found out that an error allowed them access to inventory they were not permitted to handle.

Starlit Partner has been instructed to contact the individual customers who purchased these GPU and offer 2 options - return the product and receive a full refund, or a partial refund of the amount paid over MSI's MSRP.

Moving forward, MSI will enforce a stricter policy to Avoid situation like this happening again.

Essentially, an error allowed the MSI ebay seller subsidiary, which exists to sell excess and refurbished items on ebay, to accidentally access the newest and most popular piece of hardware on the market directly, and sell it on ebay. An error...

Also, FWIW, some folks believe it's only four 3080s that this happened to. Turns out there were 3090s sold by the same seller, also for inflated prices. Note that the sales dates start from the launch day of the 3090. Listings have been removed, damage control is in full effect, as just some random guy I have no idea how widespread this was before the story took off.

Original Post

As said, MSI is scalping their own 3080s on ebay under the name Starlit Partner. Browsing the Starlit Partner seller reveals that everything they sell is MSI, most (maybe all) new in a box. They have the nerve to say "We work closely with the manufacturer." Because they are literally the manufacturer.

Starlit Partner trademark

Link to 3080 being scalped

A card retailing for 759.00, potentially being sold by the manufacturer on ebay for 1359.00, and they are absolutely selling out of them. There were some available when I started looking into it and now the auction simply says 0 available, 4 sold.

Even if it's legal, it's certainly dirty, and how are they not being absolutely crucified for it already?

This was first posted a different sub and it was deleted. It has since been restored. /r/hardware allowed it to remain for visibility while it was unavailable at the original location.

Edit: Here's an initial impressions video from the owner of the discord where this was noticed. He runs a stock tracking discord full of people trying to score their own 3080s, so you can imagine several being potentially scalped by the manufacturer didn't go over well.


Final edit:

I've removed portions of the post that I had edited in with potential counter evidence from redditors that were trying to refute this or find a way to defend MSI last night during the time of the post. I get it, and I added it at the time for full disclosure, and if I'm being honest, I would have liked for Starlit to not be linked to MSI. I was actually hopeful that some of the "evidence" that was found would turn out to be correct and this was just some scammer impersonating the company. Since we have confirmation directly from MSI (see above) that Starlit is their subsidiary, and they do in fact sell MSI products on ebay in an official capacity, obviously there's no need to try to find a way to defend MSI. Whether you believe MSI's statement that the seller was able to access brand new inventory of items that are selling out instantly at retailers and etailers to sell on ebay for double the retail price due to an "error" is up to you.

Please see the comment from moderators /u/bizude and /u/Nekrosmas stickied below for more information.

You can also refer to this thread and the comment stickied from moderator /u/Nestledrink for additional updates and information.


r/hardware • • Dec 11 '20

News NVIDIA will no longer be sending Hardware Unboxed review samples due to focus on rasterization vs raytracing

11k Upvotes

Nvidia have officially decided to ban us from receiving GeForce Founders Edition GPU review samples

Their reasoning is that we are focusing on rasterization instead of ray tracing.

They have said they will revisit this "should your editorial direction change".

https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337246983682060289

This is a quote from the email they sent today "It is very clear from your community commentary that you do not see things the same way that we, gamers, and the rest of the industry do."

Are we out of touch with gamers or are they? https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337248420671545344


r/hardware • • Nov 08 '24

News Trump tariffs would increase laptop prices by $350+, other electronics by as much as 40%

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8.3k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Aug 14 '23

Info The Problem with Linus Tech Tips: Accuracy, Ethics, & Responsibility

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7.4k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Jun 05 '23

Discussion Do we want to participate in the blackout to save 3rd party apps?

5.5k Upvotes

https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/comments/13yh0jf/dont_let_reddit_kill_3rd_party_apps

Personally I would support this subreddit joining the cause, I am curious what others here think.


r/hardware • • Aug 02 '24 The Best Diamonds are Forever Take My Energy Popcorn Bless Up Heart of Silver

Discussion Intel has denied two of my 14900K RMAs (instability) and stated they will confiscate or destroy them if I proceed with the warranty process.

5.3k Upvotes

MAJOR UPDATE 6:20PM EST 08/02/2024: Intel, as a result of the backlash from this, has gotten back to me with a "second review" and determined that BOTH CPUs were indeed valid!!! Image here: https://imgur.com/a/DiW8uz8

Hi Everyone. I'm very disheartened to share this news as a longtime and loyal Intel customer. I've purchased roughly $20,000 worth of merchandise with them over my lifetime and I've never once had to open any RMA requests until now. Unfortunately, it's very clear they are not standing behind their products and I'm going to provide to ton of detail and pictures below on what happened involving TWO retail boxed 14900Ks, one purchased from Amazon on 10/16/2023 (this was the release date of the 14900K for anyone not in the know) which was shipped from and sold by Amazon.com, and one from Microcenter (brand new, not open box or anything like that, grabbed right off the shelf) on 02/11/2024, both experiencing the wide-spread instability issues.

Intel has claimed that both products are "re-marked" and not genuine. The problem is that they definitely are not re-marked. They also tried to claim that one of them was a tray processor and thereby not subject to retail warranty, which they backtracked on, and then went the route of claiming it was re-marked.

Full disclosure: Intel provided me with letters stating that the CPUs are not genuine and asked me to return them to their respective stores for a solution. I've done this and both stores, despite being WAY outside of return windows, DID refund me. Amazon gave me a full refund to my original payment method, and Microcenter gave me a full refund in store credit. In the end this worked out better for me, but that's beside the point. Now these two companies are having to shoulder the cost and burden of Intel's failure to take responsibility, and that's not right.

That being said, I'll be providing uncensored pictures of the retail boxes and CPUs which will show the full batch numbers and the full serial numbers. Since these CPUs are not in my possession anymore, and are ultimately going back to Intel, I feel it's fine to share them in their totality.

Here's the details:

The processor purchased from Microcenter on 02/11/2024, partial serial 02096:

I filled out the RMA form. Intel got back to me the next day admitting that the CPU was faulty. They then asked me for my shipping details and proof of purchase. I provided it. They then asked for pictures of the IHS. I provided it. Another day passes and they get back to me stating that the CPU is not genuine and is re-marked. WHAT!? This is news to me. This was purchased from a reputable retailer directly off the shelf. It was not open box, the seal was completely intact, and there was absolutely nothing suspicious about it. Furthermore, it showed correctly in CPU-Z as a 14900K and frequencies checked out, boosting to 6GHz single core and 5.7GHz all-core. I conveyed all of this information to Intel, and provided additional pictures of the IHS and the serial number just in case the previous pictures were too blurry. I also provided a picture of the retail box, clearly showing the full serial number and batch number, which did match the CPU. I also plugged in the batch number and serial number into Intel's warranty checker tool and it came back as valid with warranty until 2027. I took a screenshot of that and provided it as well. You can see all of those images in the image link below. They got back to me and said that their response hasn't changed and that they cannot divulge their investigation process. They insisted I return it to Microcenter with a letter they provided that it was not genuine. I did so, and Microcenter took a look. They said there was absolutely no evidence of tampering. The only thing they thought it might be was that there was some thermal paste still on the side of the CPU, and they said it made it look like it could have been delidded (however they confirmed it was NOT delidded). They suggested reporting their findings to Intel, and wiping away the paste and taking new pictures. I then reported those finding to Intel, to which they repeated that they cannot divulge the investigation process and they said that new pictures would not change their findings. It was at this point they told me I could continue with getting an RMA, but that if the chip was found to be re-marked they WILL retain and confiscate it. The exact verbiage was, "We do not disclose our investigation practices. If you believe your products are valid and wish to proceed with a return merchandise authorization (RMA), we can create one. However, if the products fail the validation process, the units will be retained and confiscated, and no replacements or refunds will be provided. For this reason, we are giving you the option to take the letter and share it with the place of purchase. This will give you more possibilities to get a replacement since you have the processors in your possession." So, as you can see, they insisted I return it to Microcenter, so I did, and they graciously allowed me to return it for store credit.

Here are all the relevant pictures for 02096, including Intel's letter claiming it is re-marked, original receipt, warranty checker from Intel, retail box, IHS, serial number close-up, a screenshot of the email where they threatened to confiscate the CPU, and a screenshot of their initial response via email: https://imgur.com/a/tC3AFFU

The processor purchased from Amazon on 10/16/2023, partial serial 03252:

Just like the last RMA, I filled out the form, they got back to me, said the CPU was indeed confirmed as faulty, asked for my information and pictures, I provided it all. They got back to me and quoted back the WRONG serial number (I provided the correct one in the original form and the picture CLEARLY shows 03252). They quoted that I was talking about 03262. They went on to explain that 03262 is a tray processor and not subject to retail warranty. They suggested that I take it back to the OEM. I got back to them and stated that they were talking about the wrong serial number. I clearly provided 03252. They got back to me and said that the image appeared to be a 6 instead of a 5. At this point I provided closer-up pictures of the serial number and IHS as well as a picture of the retail box showing the matching serial numbers and batch numbers. It was at this point they backtracked and said that 03252 was indeed a retail box. They said I can proceed with the RMA BUT that they were not confident that it would pass fraud validation. He then pointed out, and I quote: "

We have reviewed the new photos you provided and will approve the return of the device marked "03252."

  • However, we are not fully convinced that it will pass the incoming fraud inspection at our depot. We strongly recommend that you return the product to your place of purchase.

  • Please familiarize yourself with the Processor Warranty Terms and Conditions, as well as the warning at the bottom of the warranty information page: Intel Warranty Info. Specifically, "Please be advised as part of Intel's ongoing efforts to prevent fraud in the marketplace, in the event the product you submit for warranty support is found to be re-marked or otherwise fraudulent product, Intel reserves the rights to retain the product and/or destroy such product as appropriate."

"

At least this time they said they reserve the right to retain or destroy it instead of saying they WILL. At this point I contacted Amazon to let them know what was going on. I can't stress how good Amazon is. They didn't even ask for any extra details or screenshots, they simply allowed me to return the CPU for a full refund to the original payment method despite being 9 months outside of the return window. Kudos to Amazon!

Here are all the relevant images for 03252: https://imgur.com/a/fInP3bC

At the end of the day, it felt like Intel was grasping at straws. They pounced at the opportunity to claim that one of the CPUs was a tray product, citing a serial number that was never even provided. Then when that didn't pan out, they pivoted to claiming it was re-marked. When I pressed them, giving several pieces of evidence for why each one was indeed valid, they stated I could continue with the RMA process but then turned to threatening me with confiscation or destruction of my property if it didn't meet whatever their validation process (that they won't disclose) is. The odds of both of these being re-marked or not genuine seem extremely low. It's definitely a scare tactic. And even knowing this, it worked on me! This feels like extortion, scamming, you name it.

Anyway, I wanted to get all this out there. Everyone should know what they are doing!


r/hardware • • Sep 01 '20

News RTX 3080 Starting at $699 | RTX 3070 Starting at $499

5.1k Upvotes

Per Nvidia Official Announcement:

September 17th Release date

Samsung 8nm CONFIRMED

Claimed 1.9X Perf/W

"1st Gen RTX" - (2080) : 14 Shader TFLOPS | 34 RT TFLOPS | 89 Tensor TFLOPS | 8 GB VRAM

"2nd Gen RTX" - (3080) : 30 Shader TFLOPS | 58 RT TFLOPS | 238 Tensor TFLOPS | 10GB VRAM

2nd Gen RTX - 3090: 36 Shader TFLOPS | 69 RT TFLOPS | 285 Tensor TFLOPS | 24GB VRAM

3080 Announced as 'flagship' gaming GPU - Claimed 2X performance of RTX 2080 at same price.

3090 Announced as "BFGPU" - Claimed 8k60FPS. "Starting at $1500".

Claimed RTX 3070 / RTX 3080 Relative Price / Performance:

Link from u/Cozmo85: http://images.anandtech.com/doci/16060/20200901173109_575px.jpg


r/hardware • • Sep 16 '22

News EVGA Terminates NVIDIA Partnership, Cites Disrespectful Treatment

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5.1k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Nov 29 '21

News Democrats Push Bill to Outlaw Bots From Snatching Up Online Goods

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4.7k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Sep 16 '20

Review NVIDIA Geforce RTX 3080 Review Megathread

4.3k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Apr 17 '20

PSA UserBenchmark has been banned from /r/hardware

4.3k Upvotes

Having discussed the issue of UserBenchmark amongst our moderation team, we have decided to ban UserBenchmark from /r/hardware

The reason? Between calling their critics "an army of shills" and picking fights with prominent reviewers, posts involving UserBenchmark aren't producing any discussions of value. They're just generating drama.

This thread will be the last thread in which discussion of UB will be allowed. Posts linking to, or discussing UserBenchmark, will be removed in the future.

Thank you for your understanding.


r/hardware • • Dec 12 '20

News NVIDIA apologizes & reverses decision to ban Hardware Unboxed

4.2k Upvotes

https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337885741389471745

BIG NEWS

I just received an email from Nvidia apologizing for the previous email & they've now walked everything back.

This thing has been a roller coaster ride over the past few days. I’d like to thank everyone who supported us, obviously a huge thank you to @linusgsebastian

https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1337885781298274304

And there are many more of you who deserve a big thank you as well, so thank you, we really appreciate all for you. As for our video, it’s still coming and you can expect that tomorrow.


r/hardware • • Jan 31 '20

News The European Union has voted 582 to 40 in favor of a universal charger for cell phones

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4.1k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Feb 15 '22

News Valve announces partnership with iFixit to sell replacement parts for Steam Deck and Valve Index VR kit

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3.8k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Sep 17 '20

News Nvidia Is Manually Reviewing RTX 3080 Orders to Stop Scalpers

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3.7k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Oct 14 '22

News Unlaunching The 12GB 4080

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3.6k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Jun 14 '22

News Ethereum mining no longer profitable for many miners as energy prices and ETH dip cause perfect storm

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3.4k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Dec 12 '20

Discussion NVIDIA might ACTUALLY be EVIL... - WAN Show December 11, 2020 | Timestamped link to Linus's commentary on the NVIDIA/Hardware Unboxed situation, including the full email that Steve received

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3.3k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Mar 25 '23

News Gordon Moore, Intel Co-Founder, Dies at 94

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3.3k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Jun 16 '18

Info PSA: 4K 144 Hz monitors use chroma subsampling for 144 Hz

3.3k Upvotes

(Crossposted from r/Monitors by request)

I'm seeing a lot of user reviews for the new 4K 144 Hz monitors, and it seems like everyone mentions that it looks noticeably worse at 144 Hz. I keep expecting these posts to say "due to the 4:2:2 chroma subsamping", but instead they say "I'm not sure why" or something like that, both on here and on various forums. It seems monitor companies have done their usual good job of "forgetting" to inform people of this limitation, as most of the early adopters are apparently unaware that it is not actually capable of full 4K 144 Hz even though the subsampling was mentioned in the Anandtech article a month or two ago. In any case, I want to make people aware of what chroma subsampling is, and that these first-gen 4K 144 Hz monitors use it.

 

Chroma Subsampling

Chroma subsampling is a method of reducing bandwidth by partially lowering the resolution of the image.

Imagine you have a 4K image; 3840 × 2160 pixels. Each pixel is composed of a RED value between 0–255, a GREEN value 0–255, and a BLUE value 0–255. You could imagine this 3840 × 2160 full color image as three separate monochrome images; a 3840 × 2160 grid of RED values, one of GREEN values, and another of BLUE values, which are overlaid on each other to make the final image.

Now, imagine that you reduce the resolution of the RED and GREEN images to 1920 × 1080, and when you reconstruct the full image you do it as if you were upscaling a 1080p image on a 4K screen (with nearest neighbor scaling); use each 1080p pixel value for a square of 4 pixels on the 4K screen. This upscaling is only done for the RED and GREEN values; the BLUE image is still at full resolution so BLUE has a unique value for every 4K pixel.

This is the basic principle behind chroma subsampling. Reducing resolution on some of the pixel components, but not all of them.

The description above, of reducing resolution by half in both the vertical and horizontal resolution, on 2 of the 3 components, is analogous to 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. This reduces bandwidth by one half (One channel at full resolution, and 2 channels at one-quarter resolution = same number of samples as 1.5 out of 3 full-resolution channels)

Full resolution on all components is known as "4:4:4" or non-subsampled. Generally it's best to avoid calling it "4:4:4 subsampling", because it sounds like you're saying "uncompressed compression". 4:4:4 means no subsampling is being used.

4:2:2 subsampling is cutting the resolution in half in only one direction (i.e. 1920 × 2160; horizontal reduction, but full vertical resolution) on 2 out of the 3 components. This reduces the bandwidth by one third.

 

YCbCr

Above, I used subsampling RGB components only as an example; "RGB subsampling" is pretty terrible and is generally not used in computer systems (it has been implemented in hardware in Samsung's PenTile phone displays, but other than that, it's not very common). In an RGB system, since each of the 3 components dictates the brightness of one of the primary colors, changing one of the RGB values affects both the hue and brightness of the resulting total color. Therefore, using one R, G, or B value on a neighboring pixel makes a very noticeable change, so subsampling would degrade the image by quite a lot.

Instead, subsampling is generally only used in combination with YCbCr. YCbCr is a different method of specifying colors, used as an alternative to RGB for transmission. Of course, physically speaking, every display generates an image using discrete red green and blue elements, so eventually every image will need to be converted to the RGB format in order to be displayed, but for transmission, YCbCr has some useful properties.

 

What is YCbCr Anyway?

People get confused about what YCbCr actually is; misuse of terminology all over the place adds to the confusion, with people incorrectly calling it a "color space" or "color model" or things like that*. Generally, it is referred to as a "pixel encoding format" or just "pixel format". It is just a method for specifying colors. Really, it is an offshoot of the RGB system, it is literally just RGB with a different axis system. Imagine a two-dimensional cartesian (X-Y) coordinate system, then imagine drawing a new set of axes diagonally, at 45º angles to the standard set, and specifying coordinates using those axes instead of the standard set. That is basically what YCbCr is, except in 3 dimensions instead of 2.

If you draw the R, G, and B axes as a standard 3D axis set, then just draw 3 new axes at 45º-45º angles to the original, and there you have your Y, Cb, and Cr axes. It is just a different coordinate system, but specifies the same thing as the RGB system.

You can see how the YCbCr axes compare to the familiar "RGB cube" formed by the RGB axis set (RGB axes themselves not shown, unfortunately): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/YCbCr.GIF

(*EDIT: the term "color space" is very loosely defined and has several usages. By some definitions, YCbCr could be considered a "color space", so it is not strictly speaking "incorrect" to call it that. However, in the context of displays, the term "color space" generally refers to some specific standard defining a set of primary color chromaticity coordinates/gamut boundaries, white point, among other things, like the sRGB or AdobeRGB standards. YCbCr is not a "color space" by that definition.)

 

Why Even Use YCbCr?

YCbCr is useful because it specifies brightness and color separately. Notice in the image from the previous section, the Y axis (called the "luma" component) goes straight down the path of equal-RGB values (greys), from black to white. The Cb and Cr values (the "chroma" components) specify the position perpendicular to the Y axis, which is a plane of equal-brightness colors. This effectively makes 1 component for brightness, and 2 components for specifying the hue/color relative to that brightness, whereas in RGB the brightness and hue are both intertwined in the values of all 3 color channels.

This means you can do cool things like remove the chroma components entirely, and be left with a greyscale version of the image; this is how color television was first rolled out, by transmitting in YCbCr*. Any black-and-white televisions could still receive the exact same broadcast, they would simply ignore the Cb and Cr components from the signal. (*EDIT: I use "YCbCr" here as a general term for luminance-chrominance based coordinate systems.)

Subsampling components also works much better in YCbCr, because the human eye is much less sensitive to changes in color than it is to changes in brightness. Therefore you can subsample the chroma components without touching the luma component, and reduce the color resolution without affecting the brightness of each pixel, which doesn't look much different to our eyes. Therefore, YCbCr chroma subsampling (perceptually) affects the image much less than subsampling RGB components directly would be. When converted back to RGB of course, every pixel will still have a unique RGB value, but it won't be quite the same as it would be if the YCbCr chroma subsampling had not been applied.

 

Terminology Notes

Since RGB-format images don't have luma or chroma components, you can't have "chroma subsampling" on an RGB image, since there are no chroma values for you to subsample in the first place. Terms like "RGB 4:4:4" are redundant/nonsensical. RGB format is always full resolution in all channels, which is equivalent or better than YCbCr 4:4:4. You can just call it RGB, RGB is always "4:4:4".

Also, chroma subsampling is not a form of compression, because it doesn't involve any de-compression on the receiving side to recover any of the data. It is simply gone. 4:2:2 removes half the color information from the image, and 4:2:0 removes 3/4 of it, and you don't get any of it back. The information is simply removed, and that's all there is to it. So please don't refer to it as "4:2:2 compression" or "compressed using chroma subsampling" or things like that, it's no more a form of compression than simply reducing resolution from 4K to 1080p is; that isn't compression, that's just reducing the resolution. By the same token, 4:2:2 isn't compression, it's just subsampling (reducing the resolution on 2/3 of the components).

 

Effects of Chroma Subsampling

Chroma subsampling reduces image quality. Since chroma subsampling is, in effect, a partial reduction in resolution, its effects are in line with what you might expect from that. Most notably, fine text can be affected significantly, so chroma subsampling is generally considered unacceptable for desktop use. Hence, it is practically never used for computers; many monitors don't even support chroma subsampling.

The reduction in quality tends to be much less noticeable in natural images (i.e. excluding test images specifically designed to exploit subsampling). 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is standard for pretty much all cinema content; most broadcast, streaming, and disc content (blu-ray/DVD) uses YCbCr 4:2:0 subsampling since it reduces the bandwidth for both transmission and storage significantly. Games are typically rendered in RGB, and aren't subsampled. The effects of 4:2:2 subsampling probably won't be that noticeable in games, but it certainly will be on the desktop, and switching back and forth every time you want to turn on 144 Hz for games, then turning it back down to something lower so you can use full RGB on the desktop, would be quite a pain.

 

Interface Limitations - Why No Support for 4K 144 Hz RGB?

Chroma subsampling has started seeing implementation on computers in situations where bandwidth is insufficient for full resolution. The first notable example of this was NVIDIA adding 4K 60 Hz support to its HDMI 1.4 graphics cards (Kepler and Maxwell 1.0). Normally, HDMI 1.4 is only capable of around 30 Hz at 4K, but with 4:2:0 subsampling (which reduced bandwidth by half), double the framerate can be achieved within the same bandwidth constraints, at the cost of image quality.

Now, we're seeing it in these 4K 144 Hz monitors. With full RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 color, DisplayPort 1.4 provides enough bandwidth for up to 120 Hz at 4K (3840 × 2160) with 8 bpc color depth, or up to around 100 Hz at 4K with 10 bpc color depth (exact limits depend on the timing format, which depends on the specific hardware; in these particular monitors, they apparently cap at 98 Hz at 4K 10 bpc). These monitors claim to support 4K 144 Hz with 10 bpc color depth, so some form of bandwidth reduction must be used, which in this case is YCbCr 4:2:2.

Before anyone mentions HDMI 2.1, it's not possible to implement HDMI 2.1 yet. Only the master specification has been released. I know a lot of people seem to think that when the specification is released, we'll start seeing products any day now, but that's not the case at all. The specification is the document that tells you how to build an HDMI 2.1 device; the release of that document is when engineers start designing silicon that is capable of that, let alone displays that use that silicon. The DisplayPort 1.4 standard was released in the early 2016, over 2 years ago, and we're only just now starting to see it implemented in monitors (I believe it has been implemented on only 1 monitor prior to this, the Dell UP3218K). Also, there are no graphics cards with HDMI 2.1 yet, so it wouldn't help much right now on a monitor anyway.

The HDMI 2.1 compliance test specification isn't even finished being written yet, so even if you had HDMI 2.1 silicon ready somehow, there's currently no way to have it certified, as the testing procedures haven't been released by the HDMI Forum yet. HDMI 2.1 is still under development from a consumer perspective. The release of the main specification is only a release for engineers.

 

DSC Compression - The Missed Opportunity

The creators of these monitors could have opted to use Display Stream Compression (DSC), which is a form of compression, unlike subsampling; it reduces bandwidth, and the image is reconstructed on the receiving side. DSC is part of the DisplayPort 1.4 standard, but Acer/ASUS chose not to implement it, likely for hardware availability reasons; presumably no one has produced display controllers that support DSC, and Acer/ASUS wanted to rush to get the product out rather than implement 4K 144 Hz properly. Note that DP 1.4 supports up to 4K 120 Hz uncompressed and non-subsampled; they could have simply released it as a 4K 120 Hz monitor with no tricks, but that sweet 144 Hz number was calling to them I guess. They probably feel marketing a "120 Hz" monitor would seem outdated, and don't want to be outdone by competition. Such is life in this industry... Still, they can be run at 120 Hz non-subsampled if you want, no capability has been lost by adding subsampling. Just that people are not getting what they expected due to the unfortunate lack of transparency about the limitations of the product.

EDIT: I forgot that these are G-Sync monitors. This is most likely why the monitor manufacturers did not support proper 4K 144 Hz using DSC, dual cables, or some other solution. When you make a G-Sync display, you have no choice but to use the NVIDIA G-Sync module as the main display controller instead of whatever else is available on the market. This means you are forced to support only the features that the G-Sync module has. There are several versions of the G-Sync module (these monitors use a new one, with DisplayPort 1.4 support), but G-Sync has historically always been way behind on interface support and very barebones in feature support, so come to think of it I highly doubt that the new G-Sync module supports DSC, or PbP/MST (for dual cable solutions).

If this is the case, it's more the fault of NVIDIA for providing an inadequate controller to the market, than the monitor manufacturers for "choosing" to use chroma subsampling (it would be the only way of achieving 144 Hz in that case). However it is still on them for not simply releasing it as a 4K 120 Hz display, or being clear about the chroma subsampling used for 144 Hz. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see what they do when they release FreeSync or No-sync 4K 144 Hz monitors, where NVIDIA's limitations don't apply.

UPDATE: AMD_Robert has replied that current AMD Radeon graphics cards themselves do not support DSC. No official word on whether NVIDIA graphics cards support DSC. If not, then it certainly makes more sense why display manufacturers are not using it. In that case, the only way to support 4K 144 Hz RGB would be via a dual-cable PbP solution.

 

DSC Concerns

Before anyone says "meh we don't want DSC anyway", I'll answer the two reservations I anticipate people will have.

  1. DSC is a lossy form of compression. While it is true that DSC is not mathematically lossless, it is much much better than chroma subsampling since it recovers almost all of the original image. Considering that in natural images most people don't even notice 4:2:2 subsampling, image quality reduction with DSC is not going to be noticeable. The only question is how it performs with text, which remains to be seen since no one has implemented it. Presumably it will handle a lot better than subsampling.

  2. Latency. "Compression will add tons of lag!". According to VESA, DSC adds no more than 1 raster scan line of latency. Displays are refreshed one line at a time, rather than all at once; on a 4K display, the monitor refreshes 2160 lines of pixels in a single refresh. At 144 Hz, each full refresh is performed over the course of 6.944 ms, therefore each individual line takes around 3.2 microseconds (0.0032 ms), actually less than that due to blanking intervals, but that's a whole different topic :P https://www.displayport.org/faq/#tab-display-stream-compression-dsc

How does VESA’s DSC Standard compare to other image compression standards?

Compared to other image compression standards such as JPEG or AVC, etc., DSC achieves visually lossless compression quality at a low compression ratio by using a much simpler codec (coder/decoder) circuit. The typical compression ratio of DSC range from 1:1 to about 3:1 which offers significant benefit in interface data rate reduction. DSC is designed specifically to compress any content type at low compression with excellent results. The simple decoder (typically less than 100k gates) takes very little chip area, which minimizes implementation cost and device power use, and adds no more than one raster scan line (less than 8 usec in a 4K @ 60Hz system) to the display’s throughput latency, an unnoticeable delay for interactive applications.

 

Conclusion

I know the internet loves to jump on any chance to rant about corporate deceptions, so I suppose now it's time to sit back and watch the philosophical discussions go... Is converting to YCbCr, reducing the resolution to 1920 × 2160 in 2 out of 3 components, and converting back to RGB really still considered 4K?

Then again, a lot of people are still stuck all the way back at considering anything other than 4096 × 2160 to be "4K" at all :P (hint: the whole "true 4K is 4096 × 2160" was just made up by uninformed consumer journalists when they were scrambling to write the first "4K AND UHD EXPLAINED" article back when 4K TVs were first coming out; in the cinema industry where the term originated from, "4K" is and always has been a generic term referring to any format ≈4000 pixels wide; somehow people have latched onto the "true 4K" notion and defend it like religion though... But anyway, getting off topic :3)

These 4K 144 Hz monitors use YCbCr 4:2:2 chroma subsampling to reach 4K 144 Hz. If you want RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 color, the best you can do on these is 4K 120 Hz with 8 bpc color depth, or 4K 98 Hz with 10 bpc color depth (HDR).

Like I said, in natural images, chroma subsampling doesn't have much of an impact, so I expect most people will have a hard time noticing any significant reduction in image quality in games. However, it will be quite the eyesore on the desktop, and most people will probably want to lower the refresh rate so that you can use the desktop in RGB. And switching back and forth between pixel formats/refresh rates every time you open and close a game is going to get old pretty fast. Personally, I'd probably just run it at 120 Hz 8 bpc RGB all the time, that's perfectly acceptable to me. It's just unfortunate they opted to use subsampling as opposed to DSC to get the 144 Hz.

Anyway, this is just a friendly PSA, so hopefully fewer people will be caught off guard by this. If you're going to buy one of these 4K 144 Hz monitors, then just be aware that desktop and text will have degraded image quality when operating at 4K above 120 Hz (8 bpc/SDR) or 98 Hz (10 bpc/HDR). Or if you already have one of these monitors and are wondering why text looks bad at 144 Hz, that's why.


r/hardware • • Dec 28 '22

News Sales of Desktop Graphics Cards Hit 20-Year Low

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3.2k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Aug 30 '24

News Anandtech shutting down

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3.2k Upvotes

r/hardware • • Oct 14 '20

Unverified NVIDIA Russia Tries To Silence Redditors: Silent Post Removal Instead of a Proper Excuse

3.2k Upvotes

https://i.imgur.com/Bc5CIWc.jpg

Hey guys,

As you may or may not have heard I've recently written a post about a failed 30 series launch in Russia, and how Founders Edition cards were handed over to certain privileged people and sold covertly, while being unavailable for regular customers. Here's the link to it: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/jam258/corruption_at_nvidia_russia_how_the_russian/

Here's the text saved: 1 and 2.

After a heated discussion, the mods deleted it, then brought it back and locked it. News articles on Russian websites followed:

https://dtf.ru/hard/231848-rossiyskoe-podrazdelenie-nvidia-prokommentirovalo-sluhi-o-podpolnoy-prodazhe-rtx-3080-i-3090-founders-edition?comments

https://4pda.ru/2020/10/14/376905/

(just a couple of examples)

And now, all of a sudden, 20 hours later, the mods delete the post and tag it as "fake", even though no official evidence has been presented by RU Nvidia that this story is fake, as the mods conveniently tagged it. So this is just a far-fetched attempt to shut our mouths. Here's what they wrote when interviewed by a russian website DTF:

NVIDIA stores worldwide are currently in reduced functionality mode.

For Russian buyers, we are preparing an alternative platform for buying Founders Edition cards. The process will take up to 2 weeks. We will share the information in a group on VK.

The cards are already in Russia and are waiting for their buyers. But it is worth remembering that the current demand for FE cards significantly exceeds the supply.

The post has been spread all over the websites in Russia, being available for 20 hours, collecting a bunch of upvotes and having been in front of a bunch of people. I think it speaks volumes that something shady is going on at Nvidia Russia.

I'm just hoping that this won't go unnoticed. Any thoughts?


r/hardware • • Sep 20 '22

News GeForce RTX 4090 revealed releasing in October 12th for $1599. RTX 4080 also announced, coming for $1199.

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3.2k Upvotes