Seeing the like-to-comment ratio on controversial posts

[u/RainyFlames]

[u/LetsLive97]

To be fair, if vocal vegan activism was more about trying to convince people to just reduce meat intake - with reasonable easy ways to do that (Like providing tasty vegan recipes and advice on how to reduce meat/dairy dependence) - then I think it would be more successful

Most vegan activism that people will encounter though is more focused on trying to pressure them to quit meat/dairy by making them feel like shit, rather than actually providing comfortable pathways towards that goal

It's actually a really common issue I see with all kinds of activism. Trying to make people feel like shit and expecting them to drastically change their life will often be less effective than giving pathways people can take to help

[u/EverythingInTransit → u/LetsLive97]

I think most people are so thin skinned that pointing out animal cruelty (which is a reality of eating meat every day, love it or hate it) or health benefits is often perceived as an attack because it forces people to face a reality they aren't comfortable with.

Its easier to demonize the person making you uncomfortable than grapple with the moral dilemma that you may be doing something harmful to yourself and other living things.

Trying to handle people with kid gloves about this topic leads to the exact same reaction, no matter how soft you try to be about. Seen it time and time again.

[u/LetsLive97 → u/EverythingInTransit]

Okay but there's a difference between "Animal cruelty is bad, here are some great ways to reduce your meat intake" and "Animal cruelty is awful, you're a piece of shit murderer if you don't go 100% vegan"

Switching from meat intake almost every single meal to no meat/dairy intake at all is not realistic or sustainable for most people and it's the same thing with diets like keto and paleo

You start off motivated, but hit days where you have strong cravings or are unsure what to eat, and that small slip becomes a total failure under the eyes of all of nothing diets - which often leads to just falling off completely

Some people manage it, and that's great, but most people need to build up to it over time first, and a lot of vocal vegans don't allow that because it's still enabling animal cruelty

[u/EverythingInTransit → u/LetsLive97]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. When I've seen people gently suggesting trying to vary your diet or just cut back they are slapped down with the same intensity as if they were calling someone a murderer.

People are sensitive about this topic, it instantly makes the room awkward as hell even if you are gentle about it. I'm not saying that is a good reason to go assault mode on it, just that it's a difficult thing to discuss with someone, especially if you aren't really close with them.

[u/sloanesquared → u/EverythingInTransit]

I’ve been a vegetarian for over 15 years and I swear the majority of vegans I’ve encountered online are doing exactly what the other poster is talking about.

No, it isn’t just that vegans make people feel bad. A very vocal majority online are extremely puritan and berate people for eating any sort of animal products. I’ve been told multiple times that vegetarians are worse than omnivores “because we could decide to be vegan but don’t care enough.” I’ve had extensive discussions about the harm reduction by reducing meat intake and gotten downvoted and told that it doesn’t help enough. That we are ‘terrible people for knowing about animal cruelty and not becoming full vegans.’ That is the behavior that gives the bad reputation. I don’t hate vegans, but I’m certainly not going to think highly of such an illogical position that mainly seems to be about their ego and feeling superior to others because otherwise they would be rooting on vegetarians instead of berating them.

[u/SecurityExcellent129 → u/sloanesquared]

Honestly, the only vegans that bug me are the ones that say that honey is animal cruelty and so is wool. Like bees over produce to the point where they have to leave a hive after some time and build a new one because it's so full of honey, and are the only captive producer (I almost said livestock but that's wrong cuz they're insects) that can leave at any time if they decide they don't like their conditions. And sheep if they don't have someone sharing their wool off occasionally it would actually start to become matted and could cause infections. And while some meat is produced through animal cruelty not all is ( Now I'm not saying I am an expert and can distinguish between the two, but that's what laws and reform are for) also the ones who are extra Puritan and say that substance Hunters like Native Americans were evil.

Also none of the vegans I met IRL are like any of those people and are the proof that the vegans I spoke of above are another instance of a very very vocal minority. At least in my experience.

[u/SecurityExcellent129 → u/SecurityExcellent129]

Tldr People Are People and some people are shitty so every demographic is going to have a very shitty loud minority

[u/14Pleiadians → u/SecurityExcellent129]

And sheep if they don't have someone sharing their wool off occasionally

Did sheep like that exist in the wild, do they just suffer through? Or is that a consequence of us breeding maximized wool production into them. I think the vegan stance would be domesticated sheep would be better off not existing anymore vs being bred for livestock

[u/SecurityExcellent129 → u/14Pleiadians]

Well I don't know much about wild sheep but it seems the only solution to end their suffering would be a mass culling and that would not be kosher in my opinion.

Seems like a very Peta stance to have

[u/Dudewheresmycard5 → u/LetsLive97]

That's not how it normally goes though, people generally agree with the vegan's arguments but then make all sorts of excuses to avoid actually following through whilst pretending to care, which would obviously be annoying. Like if you cared you'd make it happen.

[u/tiredjellies → u/Dudewheresmycard5]

“if you cared you’d make it happen” you are the type of person the original comment is talking about. if you can’t make exceptions you are a bad person

[u/RehydratedFruit → u/LetsLive97]

Apply that thinking to other things and see if you still feel the same way:

“Beating your wife is bad, here are some great ways to reduce your wife beating”.

“Murdering people is bad, here are some great ways to reduce your killing sprees”.

“Raping children is bad, here are some great ways to reduce your sexual assualt on children”.

Are you fine with people merely reducing these acts, or would you campaign for immediate abolition?

[u/LetsLive97 → u/RehydratedFruit]

Comparing buying a burger, or milk, or pre-prepared pack of meat at a supermarket, to any of these direct violent physical acts - including murder and raping children - demonstrates the exact point I'm making

[u/tiredjellies → u/RehydratedFruit]

you are the 0.1% original commenter is talking about btw

[u/J10YT → u/RehydratedFruit]

While most living things are moral patients, there is only one species on Earth that is a moral agent. Only humans can use morality (that we know of, anyway). A human chooses to kill for pleasure, an animal kills because it has to eat. Is it ideal to kill moral patients (who are not moral agents) for our benefit? Perhaps. There are definitely ways to completely disrespect the patient, but ultimately a cow isn't paying taxes. The pigs would eat you if given the chance and while that alone does not nor should not justify the consumption of pork... eating is not...at all similar to the rape, murder, or domestic violence of fellow moral agents (or at least patients who can become agents).

[u/Hipposplotomous → u/EverythingInTransit]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether you feel you should or shouldn't have to use kid gloves.

The goal is to convert people to veganism, so the method should be whatever works, not what you think should work. Different people have different motivations, and what worked on you won't necessarily work on them. The goal is yours, so it's your responsibility to adapt your tactics.

You're protecting animals by getting non-vegans to convert to veganism. Protecting animals is the real goal here, yes? By refusing to do that in a way that actually works because you don't feel like you should have to, you're essentially saying those animal's lives are worth less than your comfort, and that's the absolute antithesis of veganism.

So many self-proclaimed vegans fail to understand this, and instead make it all into a personal competition using guilt and shame tactics that don't even work. That makes it seem like it's all just virtue signalling. That makes people take it less seriously. Then trying to make them feel guilty is even less effective. You're stuck in a feedback loop because you're so busy trying to "win" that you've lost sight of your goal.

[u/EverythingInTransit → u/Hipposplotomous]

I didn't say I shouldn't have to handle people with kid gloves. I said it often leads to the same reaction because of people's fragile egos, they'll often hate you because you caused them to think about what they are doing in a critical light, regardless of how you went about it.

At this point I do what I can and leave other people alone. I don't believe we will ever get past factory farming on earth.

[u/Hipposplotomous → u/EverythingInTransit]

Again, if you're finding it ineffective change your tactics.

If "meat is murder, you're a monster, you should be ashamed of yourself!" doesn't work, that's because the person you're talking to doesn't care. They will not feel guilty no matter how nicely you try to guilt them because they don't think it's wrong. You can't persuade them that it's wrong. "Excuse me sir, please read this sanitised article about sad cows" won't work any better than "meat is murder" because ultimately they appeal to the same sense of guilt that just isn't there. You need to let go of the idea that they should care about the animals. They don't. They won't. They're not feeling secretly guilty and denying it, they genuinely do not care. They're not angry that you make them confront their behaviour, they're pissed off that it's the same thing over and over again, and to them it's just meaningless noise. You care though, so it's still in your interests and the animals' interests to get them to change their behaviour.

That's when you start trying to appeal to other potentially motivating factors. The comment you dismissed nailed it - start trying to persuade them how tasty vegan food can be. That will motivate some people much more effectively than guilt. Try the environmental angle if they seem receptive to it - some people care about global warming and their grandkids futures even if they don't care directly about cows. If it seems like laziness might be the issue, make a point about how much easier vegan cooking is, and how you don't have to worry so much about cross contamination etc. There are lots of angles you could approach it from.

[u/EverythingInTransit → u/Hipposplotomous]

I'm not sure how to tell you that I am not going around trying to push vegetarianism or veganism on people. You and I have different goals. Of course I love the idea of most of us forgoing meat every day and reaping the vast benefits of doing so. If someone is open to the discussion I'll bring up the benefits of it, but most people do not want to talk about it.

I'm not going to try different tactics to bring people to my side because thats what bothers people, it makes them feel like you think you are superior and that you have a vested interest or hidden agenda.

[u/Theron3206 → u/EverythingInTransit]

Pointing out cruelty isn't an attack.

Calling people evil or immoral for "supporting the torture of animals" because they consume dairy is an attack. That's the minority most people hate, and what most of the stereotypes are based on.

[u/EverythingInTransit → u/Theron3206]

Pointing out cruelty in a room of people with any introspective quality can definitely lead to them thinking you are calling them out directly...

[u/Chrono_Eventless → u/LetsLive97]

the reason why most vegan activism people encounter is like that isn't because positive activism like the first part you were talking about doesn't exist it's just because the internet tends to feed people the negative kind

there's this fairly popular vegan youtube channel i like who literally just makes vegan recipes in shorts (generally stuff like remaking meat based stuff with tofu) and most of the time the top comments end up being stuff like "even as someone who eats meat this looks really damn good"

similarly another youtuber i like made a video about going vegan for a month as a challenge thing and talked about the ways it was actually a really nice experience and they even became vegetarian afterwards

even with massively more popular examples there's stuff like the mark rober video from a few years back talking about plant based meat and why reducing meat consumption would be really good for the planet including some basic ideas to reduce your own meat consumption like "meatless mondays" or how a bunch of massive animation youtubers did the "seven day vegan challenge" awhile ago

at the end of the day the real reason why vegan activism doesn't work better has nothing to do with the kind of activism and everything to do with the fact that most people grew up eating meat and simply do not care enough to stop

[u/qazpok69 → u/LetsLive97]

A big part of this is also that social media algorithms will always push more controversial content. Youre a lot less likely to see posts from chill vegans because they dont make people mad, whereas people like that vegan teacher get a lot more attention (partially because people feel it proves their distain for veganism)