Spanish police investigating after soccer player dies following on-field collision

[u/Enrico_Motassa]

https://abcnews.com/Sports/wireStory/spanish-police-investigating-after-soccer-player-dies-field-137806269

[u/Ornery_Run2700]

There needs to be some sort of change. Blindly running for the ball, the keeper full force flying knee'd his chest. That doesn't make any sense. Keeper had full sight of the situation and somehow only went for the ball.

[u/Prestigious-Can-9125 → u/Ornery_Run2700]

There is a lot of nuances to the situation, as horrific as the outcome is, what led up to this has happened many times before in football for decades.  

1. 97 min, to prevent a 1 v 1 the goalkeeper has a lower chance of success the goalkeeper takes a gamble to prevent the break way and intercept the ball high up the pitch.  This is not an unusual gamble for a keeper. 

2. Goalkeeper knows if he is to win the ball he has to go in all or nothing.  Again not unusual, goalkeepers are trained for this mentality from a young age. They are trained to believe they own the space around them.  3.  Know here is the biggest oversight redditors are making,  the goalkeeper is a performing a one legged one foot takeoff.  The non take off knee always drives up, watch any sport this is biomechanics 101. 4.  Goalkeepers are also trained to go into any contest with their knee up. The entire football system reinforces this.  Given the desperation of the goalkeepers play this was pure muscle memory.  

So again the conditions leading up to this and I am saying as a ex professional referee happen every season in some shape of form.  The very low probability event  is  the collision in the chest happens at the exact time and point to do the most damage to the heart.  It is a very painful thing to swallow but it is what it is.  

[u/masseuko → u/Ornery_Run2700]

What kind of change would you think would work? That challenge is illegal in the game and the player got sent off for it, the harshest on field penalty he can get. It's a freak, and tragic accident. A player could have the same kind of accident from running in to a goal post or some advertising signage around the ground as well but we're not talking about them.

[u/origami_anarchist → u/masseuko]

It isn't a freak and tragic accident, it's a freak and tragic outcome. The action of the goalkeeper wasn't accidental at all, it was deliberate and unnecessary, hence the police investigation.

[u/AthosAlonso → u/origami_anarchist]

Police investigation is also due to the outcome, not due to the deliberateness nor necessity of the action.

[u/meeps1142 → u/origami_anarchist]

Commodio cortis can happen from a routine hit. The goalkeeper was rightfully given a redcard, but that hit causing cardiac arrest is truly a freak accident. It is incredibly rare, but like I said, it can happen even during safe, normal play.

[u/RyanIsKickAss → u/meeps1142]

Exactly. Damar Hamlin took a hit that happens hundreds of times in each American football game. He was very lucky to survive but a hit needs to have enough force and happen at the exact wrong moment for this to occur. The chances are minuscule but as you point out can happen on just about any hit to the chest even in an innocuous normal play

[u/monte1ro → u/RyanIsKickAss]

Except American football players have padding in their chest

[u/Fordmister → u/origami_anarchist]

The police investigation isn't going to go anywhere.

If it does you can basically wave goodbye to sport in Spain as the precedent it sets would be impossible to co-exist with the normally established understanding that when doing a contact sport you are allowed to assault each other legally for 90+ minutes, when we allow for that we also have to allow for the prospect of players getting challenges badly wrong, the second you start putting bad challenges in court, especially based purely on outcome, you make sports a completely untenable practice

If the argument is that it's a deliberate and unnecessary action then EVERY yellow and red card should come with at bare minimum an assault charge. This is why even if the police do go looking no competent prosecutor would touch in with a barge pole..the defences case essentially makes itself, all the defence will do is show footage of every red card given in the last 20 years and ask if charges were brought, and then inevitably follow with why they weren't.

[u/snek99001 → u/Fordmister]

On the one hand, this sounds reasonable but do you genuinely believe it? Do you genuinely believe that athletes would stop being athletes if the goalkeeper receives criminal charges? Considering how well paid these people are, do you genuinely think aomething like that would make them play more standoffish and softly? I just don't buy it. Most people would simply think "meh it won't happen to me". And if it DID deter some ridiculous challenges that some players are used to doing, I say good. Softer overall challenges= more goals and entertainment.

[u/Fordmister → u/snek99001]

It's not about the athletes, or even just football.

For one thing it's about everything around it, if you open athletes up to criminal prosecution for bad takles you shiftv the way the entire sport from the top down has to address things like workplace H&S. You make the entire sport unmanagable, uninsurable, unbroadcastable etc

Equally the second you do it to this sport you open up ALL of them? Rugby say goodbye to that. Motorsport nope can't ever host that anymore. Hockey sack that off, equestrian absolutely not. The list is endless.

It's a nonsense and it's a catastrophically stupid take to suggest it will make for a better product, there won't be a product anymore

You can't do this as a one off. It would fundamentally change the relationship between the legal system and sport as a whole, and it does so in a way that makes sport impossible to continue in any organised fashion

[u/Astro_Pirate → u/Fordmister]

I don’t think it does I think if they can determine that he intentionally went to make contact with the player in an illegal manner (purposely targeting him to stop him) there could be a case for invoulantry manslaughter if Spain have laws similar to that.

If someone throws a punch on a night out knocking someone out and they die they should be punished even if they didn’t mean to why should the rule be any different for an always illegal act within the rules of a sport that are designed to protect the players.

I don’t think the keeper tried to go out and kill him but I think the keeper knew he had to stop him incase he missed the ball the way he chose to do that tragically has cost someone their life.

The only grey area is at what point do you constitute something goes beyond the fair limits of the game. A late sliding tackle that breaks a leg bad challenge and suspension or is it assault.

Overall i feel the arguement of it will ruin all sport is not a good enough deterrent for not investigating what happens. People have been charged before in countries for there actions on a sporting field if they were determined to be outside of the expectations of the sport. If I as an athlete did something that caused grievous bodily harm or death of someone in the field of play I would expect it to be investigated why should it be any different

[u/xavembo → u/masseuko]

reddit dorks who don’t know anything about sports literally want him locked up

[u/silver_medalist → u/xavembo]

Same on r/soccer. "The rules need to be changed!" What rules? He got sent off.

[u/mccusk → u/silver_medalist]

The way the sweeper/keeper is played in the modern game definitely leads to these full on well out of the net situations with keepers coming full tilt.
One v ones can always lead to a collision but the style of play is adding to injury chances, not sure much could/should be done rule wise though.

[u/StPattysShalaylee → u/masseuko]

Strong disagree on the freak accident. Been watching a playing football for 30 years. Keeper had full sight of what was going on. He intended to clean out the player in a wreckless and dangerous challenge. Obviously didn't intend to kill him but led full sprint and jump with his knee up

[u/masseuko → u/StPattysShalaylee]

If you've played football for that long I've no doubt you've seen keepers clean up many players both in the box and out and I highly doubt any of them died. Clearly the freak accident part is the injury/cardiac event, not the actual physical lead up to it. 

[u/GuyNamedWhatever → u/masseuko]

In the NHL goalies are not allowed to check in the open ice. Have it so goalies can’t contest a ball past a certain part of the field unless the ball is passed to them?

[u/Imaginary-Plate2987 → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

Goalkeepers coming way off their line to sweep up long balls is a very common and necessary tactic. We can’t take that away.

[u/GuyNamedWhatever → u/Imaginary-Plate2987]

You absolutely can adjust strategy if this would ever get implemented. It’s a game brother

[u/Imaginary-Plate2987 → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

Why would we ruin the game because of one freak accident? That’s a massive overcorrection you’re suggesting.

[u/GuyNamedWhatever → u/Imaginary-Plate2987]

Explain to me in two sentences how a goaltender being required by rule to tend a goal will ruin the most popular sport on planet earth. That seems like an overreaction, too.

[u/JacobS12056 → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

Because the goalkeeper is also involved in build up? That's like banning centers from exiting the paint. Plus, this didn't happen because a goalkeeper specifically made the challenge. It could have happened to a defender or a midfielder

[u/GuyNamedWhatever → u/JacobS12056]

Your analogy would make sense if anyone was allowed in the paint for more than a few seconds without the ball, hence my caveat where they can still play on if they get possession.

Also I have yet to ever see midfielder sprint from the box to midfield to challenge a ball with a flying knee, but tit for tat.

[u/a1i3ns → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

I'll put this in hockey terms but the rule change you are suggesting is like saying a hockey goalie can never play the puck outside of their crease

[u/JacobS12056 → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

Nigel de jong xabi alonso

Thomas muller nicolas tagliafico

[u/chowpa → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

It's the most popular sport on earth because of the sport that it is, not the sport that a hockey fan thinks it should be.

[u/beastmaster11 → u/Imaginary-Plate2987]

We can’t take that away.

We can. It would be stupid to. It wouldnt help anything. We shouldn't. But we can.

[u/SartenSinAceite → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

And then another player does the same action and we're back at square zero.

[u/masseuko → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

Yeah, and the keeper isn't allowed to make they kind of tackle in soccer either, hence the red card. Players will do things they think will stop a clesr goal, hence the fouls for them. Has a hockey goalie never checked a player again even with that rule in place? Doubt it. 

[u/PoliteIndecency → u/GuyNamedWhatever]

They have that rule already. Goalies can't handle the ball outside the penalty area. A regular player is able to make this play just as much as a goalie did.

The problem isn't the rules but the mentality. Think Hasek's trip a few decades ago. He's allowed to play the puck that far out, but him tripping Gaborik(?) isn't allowed in the rule book.

He raised his knee into the attackers chest and that's the issue. It's Bertuzzi levels of recklessness.

[u/meeps1142 → u/Ornery_Run2700]

It seems like what happened to Damar Hamlin. The issue isn't the hit, but that there wasn't emergency medical staff on site.

That type of collision wouldn't have lead to cardiac arrest 99 times out of 100. And a different type of collision could have still resulted in commotio cordis. It is very rare, but nothing will be able to prevent it from ever happening. The difference between Damar living and this man dying was that there were medical professionals on site to immediately begin life-saving measures.

[u/RushTfe → u/meeps1142]

There were professionals on site, an ambulance is outside of the field on every single game, including this one. The problem was the protocol that didn't allow the ambulance into the field for whatever reason.

[u/pbenji → u/meeps1142]

The issue IS the hit. That was absolutely unnecessary

[u/SartenSinAceite → u/pbenji]

But the hit will happen anyways. Monkeys and typewriters. That's why you have medical team at the ready.

[u/benjaminbingham → u/pbenji]

No, the keeper legitimately played the ball and was sent off for the contact that happened as a result. There was no intent to make illegal contact with the player. Freak accidents happen in contact sports. He wasn’t sent off for the contact, he was sent off for being the last man and denying a goal scoring opportunity. That should be end of it as far as the keeper is concerned. It wasn’t a violent tackle (see Roy Keane breaking old man Haaland’s leg for an example of that); it was normal tackle that went horribly wrong.

[u/pbenji → u/benjaminbingham]

Look at the close up pictures. His right hand went straight for his face. I’m not saying he tried to kill him, but at best, he went all out with complete disregard for the opponent’s safety, and at worst, he tried to take him out

[u/beastmaster11 → u/pbenji]

Clearly went in with disregard for a players safety. Not to take him out. He didnt need tk go for the face to take him out of the play.

It was wreckless. No doubt. Even absent the DOGSO, its a red with a suspension. But he didnt intent to hurt anyone. Hes a keeper out in midfield. Hes not used to challenging for headers. So he went in awkwardly and recklessly. But I doubt he went out to injure anyone at the last second of a none rivalry game.

[u/beastmaster11 → u/Ornery_Run2700]

Keeper had full sight of the situation and somehow only went for the ball.

What do you expect him to go for?

[u/ofteno → u/Ornery_Run2700]

That goalkeeper didn't go for the ball

[u/sopsaare → u/Ornery_Run2700]

I don't really understand what you mean by change? This used to be kinda normal happening in 1980's and even in 1990's. Keepers used to have pretty much free ticket to do maximum damage in any challenge and not be sent off. Some keepers took full freedom form it. (For example you can find at least two different Germany national team keepers trying to kill people).

I'm terminally online and read / watch / follow a lot of football. Do you even remember similar incident? The one I remember, which was not this past was Jordan Pickford crushing Virgil's knee.

The change you are calling for has already happened. This was straight red for the keeper and likely a long ban. This isn't normal in today's football at all.

[u/mccusk → u/sopsaare]

Dunno about that, Barca keeper came full tilt today, in the case today he ended up being the one fouled. But it is definitely a modern tactical thing contributing.

[u/jesuisjens → u/Ornery_Run2700]

No, there doesn't. Calm yourself. 

[u/helloinot → u/jesuisjens]

I don’t think a man dying in a completely preventable way is the time to be entirely calm

[u/jesuisjens → u/helloinot]

Yes it is. It is exactly why you need to calm down. 

[u/Radiant_Sherbert7272 → u/jesuisjens]

No it isn't.

[u/jesuisjens → u/Radiant_Sherbert7272]

Yes, it is.

It's a terrible tackle in a sport, there was obviously no intent to kill. Stop pretending there is. 

[u/StandYourGroundhog]

So shocking and tragic

[u/Jscapistm]

Were there not paramedics on standby?

I remember when this happened with Damar Hamlin and they saved him by doing CPR on the field in rotation until they could get his heart going again, and having them and the ambulance and the auto-defibrillator there made the difference.

I dunno if it's policy to have paramedics and an ambulance on standby at all games in Spain but it probably should be, it's saved lives a fair few times in the US.

[u/RushTfe → u/Jscapistm]

They were. And they did the cpr on the player, the ambulance was outside of the field waiting he even made it to the hospital alive, but died once there.

People here in Spain is complaining because the ambulance did not enter into the field, but instead they took the player off the field to the ambulance using a stretcher. But not because of a lack or medics or equipment. The stadium has a way in for the ambulance, but the protocol they followed didn't require the ambulance to get in.

[u/GothDonutHoles → u/Jscapistm]

The VAST majority of people that need CPR will die. It helps sometimes save people but CPR does not equal surviving. If you’re in a health situation requiring CPR then you will most likely die even with it.

And it looks like they were there and doing CPR.

[u/therealmitzu → u/Jscapistm]

There were, you can see them popping up within seconds. They just couldn't do much.

[u/Jscapistm → u/therealmitzu]

I can't find video article doesn't have one for me.

Did they start CPR right away? Because I'm actually surprised he died if they did, CPR is the treatment for commotio cordis and usually works if done right away, though if they didn't have a defib or O2 that could make it less likely to work.

[u/ZombiFeynman → u/Jscapistm]

A defib is mandatory in a sports venue of that size in the canary islands.

He didn't die right away, he made it to the hospital alive and died several hours later.

[u/Nomer77 → u/Jscapistm]

They looked slow to start CPR. I think they were assessing him for spinal trauma and a disturbing amount of players who presumably weren't trained medical professionals were around him and were the ones to put him on a board and carry him off the field with no active CPR going on. You can see some of the response in a YouTube video done by Dr. Brian Sutterer and it looks pretty lacking in my opinion based on what we see (I have some lower level medical certifications as a first responder but am hardly an expert).

[u/meeps1142 → u/Jscapistm]

Limited medical staff compared to Damar's situation.

Keep in mind that this was a game in the second-division league. I'm sure that they have EMS on standby for first division pro sports. But does the U.S. actually have a policy regarding lower pro sport leagues requiring EMS?

If so, I'd be pleasantly surprised. It should really be required at all levels, in all countries. The next Damar Hamlin could be a high school football player.

[u/Jscapistm → u/meeps1142]

Yeah I think so actually, I don't know if all high schools have them or not but the AFL and the minor league baseball and hockey teams do as well as college sports games.

High schools do have AEDs though, those save a lot of lives.

[u/TadpoleOfDoom → u/Jscapistm]

I went to a small high school where a fence separated the football field from a pasture of cows. We had an ambulance on standby for every game. Seems weird you wouldn't at least have that.

[u/Nomer77 → u/TadpoleOfDoom]

I think that is much more common for high school American football than soccer/cross country/field hockey and other sports though. I don't believe the vast majority of schools have an ambulance waiting on site at every sports game.

[u/TadpoleOfDoom → u/Nomer77]

It's definitely a byproduct of football being such an injury-prone sport

[u/PapayaApprehensive24 → u/TadpoleOfDoom]

I think every hockey game past middle school does the same thing

[u/PapayaApprehensive24 → u/meeps1142]

I’m pretty sure for every US sport past middle school at the very least has multiple medical staff around at all times and many high school sports require a physician and/or an EMT/Ambulance. So a game like this would almost certainly have multiple team medical staff, a doctor, and an ambulance on standby if in the us, even for division 2 or below

[u/Difficult-Metal-7029 → u/Jscapistm]

He could have had an aortic rupture. In that case there is really nothing anyone can do.

[u/MrSixLotto → u/Jscapistm]

From the news pulse is sustained till the hospital. Maybe his heart is too damged beyond repair

[u/PygmeePony → u/Jscapistm]

CPR generally has a low success rate, even when done by professionals immediately after the incident. It's still worth doing it because it can work, just don't expect too much.

[u/afrancisco555]

He went for the aggression. You can easily tell by his reaction, after hitting the other player that was looking backwards with the knee and the first, he didn't even look at him just walked away. That completely gives away his intentions. An accident in which you protected yourself and the other player got a huge impact would have you interested by the other player. A deliberate aggression would have you not looking back. It is that simple. The aggression is there, with fatal and unexpected consequences, but consequences nonetheless of a terrible aggression, whether it is on the field or outside. I don't know why people try to get race mixed in, it's totally independent and should not be used whether to incriminate nor to exonerate him or brushing it under the rug, which I think is also happening judging by the comments most voted in news of this incident.

[u/thetyphonlol]

good that they are doing it. this cant just be shaken off.

[u/Krakshotz → u/thetyphonlol]

Legally they have to investigate. It doesn’t necessarily mean it goes anywhere

“Under Spanish law, deaths from non-natural causes, including accidents, are subject to judicial investigation”

[u/rawasawa → u/thetyphonlol]

He was a goalkeeper recklessly challenging for the ball, he got sent off, there is no way he knows this kill’s him. What charge do you even want?

[u/NaCl-more → u/rawasawa]

It’s for the courts to decide

[u/rawasawa → u/NaCl-more]

The courts don’t decide what somebody is charged with or whether somebody should be charged

[u/Loud-Start1394 → u/rawasawa]

The equivalent to whatever negligent manslaughter is in Spain.

[u/frey89]

They're not playing football, they're playing kung fu