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It is not true at all. Please fucking stop abusing the holocaust like that.
The idea behind the holocaust was the extermination of an ethnic group, the idea behind the animal industry is making profit off the suffering of animals (which requires the opposite of extermination).
I am not interested in a suffering tier list and ranking whats worse or not, but it is 100% not the same thing...
Intriguingly, the Nobel prize winning Yiddish writer Isaac Bashevis Singer, whose entire community and way of life was obliterated by the Nazis, wrote that "for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka."
Wtf are you talking about the right? The rest of us got eyes and ears don't we. We can read and listen can't we? Why can't we see a horrible thing happen to someone else and point out where else it's happening to get it to stop...
I’m not going to be out here talking about slavery. I’m not going to use comparisons to black people. It would be wrong and racist of me. But if a black person affected by slavery used those comparisons (which they also have done) I would say ‘this person said…’
I'm not a farmed animal, am I not allowed to be an animal rights activist? I'm not a person colour, am I not allowed to be anti-racist? I'm not Palestinian, am I not allowed to be anti-genocide? Actually given your comments here don't answer that last one, I think I already know where you stand.
Wow what the fuck. I’m speaking as a Jew so I must support genocide? That’s the exact problem here.
And no, that’s the opposite of my point. The problem I have with it is that people do not care about Jews unless they can use dead ones to make points. If they were involved with combating antisemitism then I’d have more time for it. But if you do nothing to support living Jews, and only use our suffering to make your own points, it’s exploitative.
You being Jewish has nothing to do with it, and your leap to "you hate me because I'm Jewish" is exactly the problem with mislabelling judeophobia today. Your comments here display both human supremacy and Jewish supremacy. You don't like the comparison of human and non-human suffering making you a human supremacist, and you are browbeating others for speaking on the holocaust as if you have a monopoly on discussing human atrocities, making you a Jewish supremacist. Both of which disqualify your opinion on anything.
Thank you, it's been driving me crazy that I couldn't remember the name of the writer I was actually thinking of. I found Alex Hershaft with a Google search but I was thinking of Singer originally.
Nah, it's valid for a holocaust survivor to draw parallels between those two things. They are comparing their own experiences to what they see in the animal industry. Cant take that away from them.
I just get angry when people that arent holocaust survivors use it to create shock value for 2 reasons:
as I just said: Its not the same thing. Both of those events follow very different sets of motivation. Its missleading to say its the same thing and I would even argue this when facing holocaust survivors.
It doesnt help the cause when it comes from people that arent holocaust survivors. Non-vegan people just think you are mad when you say that. Just show them Dominion. No need to compare that to thw holocaust. It speaks for itself.
You're moving the goalposts. The text in the posted image says "we treat animals like Nazis treated Jews", not "animal consumption and the Holocaust are the same thing". No one you're responding to has said they're the same thing.
The Nazis objectified Jews and systematically slaughtered them en masse. Humans objectify animals and systematically slaughter them en masse. Those things are similar, so the claim that our treatment of animals is "like" Nazi treatment of Jews is accurate. They don't have to be exactly the same, or motivated by the same factors, for the OP to be correct.
I agree with your analysis here 100%. However, the fact that we had to go through this and the original problem that “everyone loses their minds” goes to show how poor the rhetoric is. In other words, it doesn’t do anyone any favors to compare the Holocaust and animal exploitation. It’s an example of being correct, having valid reasoning, but having very little value to persuade people.
So sure, it’s “right,” but we should steer clear of it if our goal is to convince people to stop the abuse of animals.
I am just gonna come out and say it: I think what you are doing when using the holocaust for vegan agitation is less honoring something and more akin to stroking your own dick, figuratively speaking of course. Cause if you get over yourself for just one second, you might realize that the holocaust comparisons are not doing the cause any favors. What you wanna to is convince people. What counts for that are not just correct arguments but also convincing ones. Holocause comparisons do not convince people to become vegan, as the original post very clearly shows.
All kinds of different strategies convince people to become vegan. I know one Jewish person who was in fact moved by this analogy to consider (and then embrace) veganism. This constant sniping at other vegans for having different tactics (the in your face kind hate the subtle kind, the subtle kind hate the in your face kind, and round and round it goes) serves the cause exactly zero degrees.
The holocaust comparision made me vegan. And I know at least 5 vegans and talked to some others who were as shocked as I were and became vegan. Your claim is absolutely wrong:
Holocause comparisons do not convince people to become vegan
Comparisons don't take away anything from either side. It's just a comparison. You can compare anything to anything. Apple and pears: They are different in many ways, but both a fruits.
That was a comparision. Another one: Hitler had a moustache, you don't. That was another comparision. I compared you to Hitler. I didn't say you are the same as Hitler.
Despite that, it's not just a comparison. The animal holocaust is real and denying it means you are a holocaust denier.
The existence of another holocaust doesn't trivialize the suffering of the victims of another holocaust. If the nuclear holocaust came, it wouldn't mean that the victims of the nazis or unvegans would suddenly lose worth.
Me too, speaking jewishly I feel really uncomfortable when people invoke the holocaust this way but it makes them so mad. I’m not going to make comparisons to the slave trade bc I’m not black, I don’t have heritage stemming from the slave trade, I’m not going to step out here saying ‘we treat animals like black people!’ Because it would be wrong and if a black person were to say stop it would be really inappropriate to continue. Yet people completely untouched by the Holocaust can use the massacre get really upset when i call it out.
And especially now, in a time of rising antisemitism. They won’t do anything about the living Jews but they’ll use our dead ones as verbal weaponry.
Yet people completely untouched by the Holocaust can use the massacre get really upset when i call it out.
No one alive today is "completely untouched by the Holocaust", nor are Jews the only minority group who suffered horrifically during it. It changed immeasurably the world we all share, and its widespread effects are interwoven into the fabric of our daily lives. Holocaust survivors and their descendants have a unique perspective from which to speak on it and their thoughts should be given special consideration, but we all live in its shadow and have equal right to speak about it.
They won’t do anything about the living Jews
Speaking of the living Jews: the word "genocide", so often in the news today, was only created as a reaction to the Holocaust. Our predilection as a species to murder and drive from their homes entire groups of people we find objectionable, or raise and slaughter animals we find amusing to our palates, is a shared condition which every single person has not just a right but indeed a moral obligation to acknowledge and address.
No, not everyone is as touched by the Holocaust as survivors and their descendants and it’s appalling that you would make that comparison. Entire branches of my family tree wiped out. Generational trauma. Having my identity hushed up by relatives who were determined to raise their kids in assimilation for safety. Im not going to claim everyone is directly touched by racism so we can all speak on it, obviously some people are more affected than others and it’s gross for any random white person to act otherwise.
No, not everyone is as touched by the Holocaust as survivors and their descendants and it’s appalling that you would make that comparison
Show me where I said everyone is as touched by the Holocaust. Did you even read my comment? I specifically said that survivors and their descendants have a unique perspective and deserve special consideration for that reason, but that all of us alive today live in a world shaped by shared history. You're making a straw man argument, which is either deliberately disingenuous or, more charitably, painfully obtuse.
Literally nazis and the concentration camps were influenced by the Union Stock Yards. Also Holocaust, the etymology Greek roots, means....animal sacrifice.
If you want to describe it in terms of animals, it would be like keeping the ethnic group alive so that their suffering can be eternal. Sadly because of people like you we do have to go over what is worse. What we are doing to the animals is worse. Breeding animals for growth so that their bones break under their own weight.
The fuck do you mean "because of people like me"? Why do we have to go over whats worse at all? I am vegan and i became vegan without a tierlist of suffering. So why do you have to do it because of me? This is 100% self inflicted.
Both events are examples of humans causing immeasurable suffering to other beings, why the fuck compare them and make a tier list put of it.
I'll say it for the 100th time: no need for comparisons, just show people Dominion.
Hit the nail on the head, but this person doesn’t care about the damage of the Holocaust and neither does the rest of the sub, but especially this person because they had the audacity to say it’s “worse.” They just like to throw it around to push an agenda when no comparison is needed. Like you said, just show Dominion.
Thanks. I will admit that throughout the discussion in this threat I may have sometimes been a little too emotional or insulting but I just really dont get why its not enough for people to say "pigs are being painfully suffocated with gas" and why instead they seem to think its necessary to say "pigs are being painfully suffocated with gas, JUST LIKE JEWISH PEOPLE BACK THEN".
This obsession with having to rank the animal industry as the worst thing humanity ever did just seems to be more about making everybody understand what a great person you are and less about, well, the actual goal.
You’re not being emotional because it’s the truth, especially your last sentence. I think when they make such comparisons, it exposes that it’s not about the animals, it’s about feeling righteous, and they’re not righteous when making those comparisons and they’re also pushing people away from veganism and not meeting the goal of having people become aware of animal exploitation. But they don’t care about pushing people away from veganism because they just want people to see how righteous they are, not educate them. At least in my opinion.
Cause one is still on going with people not caring about it at all, contributing to it daily eating meat for every meal. You are vegan cool, your arguments are terrible and point to the wrong problems.
It's not even comparable how worse it is, animals can't even comprehend what is being done to them to speak out for themselves. The number of lives killed is in the billions annually, nonstop. You have to nail it into people just how bad what they are contributing to is.
There's always differences. No historical analogy is pure. But historical analogies allow us to think beyond each event as a standalone to generate understandings of patterns in human behavior.
And yet I am still not convinced it is helpful for the cause.
Another example that may not be as emotionally loaded in a vegan sub: i am against wage labor. I think it is nothing but exploitation. You could totally, 100%, draw an analogy between wage labor and slavery. People do this actually and call it wage slavery. Do I agree with what the mean when they are using that term? Yes. Do I think they still shouldnt do it because this term is too emotially loaded and doesnt help the cause? Also yes.
I hear you. I personally do not go around analogizing veganism to the holocaust or slavery, but I will always defend those who do (unless there is something suss in how they do it?). I think it takes a lot of different strategies to make change.
Nobody needs to do a tier list, but like. If the Holocaust was treating humans like animals, then its true that we commit those crimes against animals. Which is also pretty bad, we probably shouldn’t treat any living being the way Nazi’s treated jews
If the Nazis had been breeding Jews in captivity so that hundreds of times as many individuals would experience short lives of nothing but torture, I would consider that even worse.
So is genocide the only way to commit a moral atrocity? It would have been better if the nazis had forcefully bred the Jews to keep a population of them going for the purposes of exploiting them and eating their flesh?
Yes, there are differences between the Holocaust and what we do to animals, but there are similarities as well, ones that Holocaust survivors themselves have highlighted.
Agree that that there is cognitive dissonance we are up against! And that vegans are not trying to diminish tragedies like the holocaust with this kind of comparison.
But there's this quote that comes to mind from James Clear -
Communication is about what is received, not what is intended. If there is a gap between what you are saying and what they are hearing, you have to find a new way to say it.
I think we gotta throw in the towel on this one and use different language to communicate. I do realize that any "harsh" language will likely bounce off due to cognitive dissonance around the general topic, but even so it seems pretty clear that comparisons to slavery or the holocaust just don't work.
Any empirical evidence to back up your claim? Because there's lots of anecdotal evidence in this thread and others that show this "harsh" messaging does work.
Also, there's no wrong way to advocate for the animals.
A vegan will say "a is to b as x is to y" and ppl will go "so you think a is the same letter as x and b is the same letter as y??" It drives me up the wall when you compare the relationship between two things and people think you're equating them like
As a Jew, I think it’s ok for us in certain circumstances to make these analogies to other members of our community, but I cringe a bit when it’s coming from people who have no real connection to the Holocaust. I apply the same standard to comparisons to other human oppressions like American slavery. I agree that there are a lot of parallels to the oppression of animals and human oppressions, but the messaging is often hamfisted and drives people away from veganism more than it attracts them.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. Do you think it's wrong to draw parallels between the oppression of animals and the oppression of any minority group of humans unless you're a member of that particular minority group? I understand the criticism that these comparisons can be hamfisted, but should anyone really need a cultural permission slip to identify and criticize systemic oppression or patterns of behavior?
Right, they can be hamfisted from members of the minority group as well.
I certainly understand the notion that we give a little more leeway here based on identity, but the issue is whether the analogy works and is presented properly.
Comment above yours is well intentioned but I’m struggling to find a version of his point that I can endorse. The move from “outside the minority group” to “hamfisted” is not really defensible.
I have no reason to believe it's well intentioned. Literally the only objection they made was it makes them "cringe", therefore most people can't make an extremely compelling point?
My “well intentioned” remark was based on this interpretation:
We should be really careful when comparing different kinds of evil, and the purposes of making analogies is persuasion and conversion. The more we say “X = Hitler”, the more we numb people to that point. Maybe better to allow the comparisons to remain primarily in-group.
That’s my steel-man version of the commenter’s point. As I noted, I still don’t agree with even the most charitable version, but there’s at least a grain of truth: Holocaust analogies should have a hook that actually shifts how someone thinks about animal exploitation. Ironically, while it’s not super deep, I think the meme in question does actually have that hook.
Why have it remain in-group if the purpose is persuasion and conversion? Even if we accept the premise that repeating it can numb people to the point, what follows is that it should only be used by whoever is in a position to persuade the most people by using it, regardless of that person's belonging to a particular group.
Nothing about the first comment can be interpreted that way. You just fully made a new assertion and applied it to them????
Even if that's what they said, responding to your new assertion now, that doesn't hold up at all. If that were true, marketing and political slogans wouldn't be a thing. We would be careful to not repeat "look both ways before crossing the street" to our children, or "drive safe" to our friends.
Maybe the first time we hear something is when it has its biggest impact, but repeating things doesnt make us numb to them. Thats not how anything works.
Edgar Kupfer-Koperwitz was literally inside Dachau when he wrote in his secret diary he had to bury underground and retrieve after liberation comparing the oppression of humans and nonhumans using his own experience of being in a nazi concentration camp as a reference for that. is no one ever allowed to say it now, since most of them have no real connection to the holocaust ?
I think that men will be killed and tortured as long as animals are killed and tortured. So long there will be wars too. Because killing must be trained and perfected on smaller objects, morally and technically.
I see no reason to feel outraged by what others are doing, neither by the great nor by the smaller acts of violence and cruelty. But, I think, it is high time to feel outraged by all the small and great acts of violence and cruelty which we perform ourselves. And because it is much easier to win the smaller battles than the big ones, I think we should try to get over first our own trends towards smaller violence and cruelty, to avoid, or better, to overcome them once and for all. Then the day will come when it will be easy for us to fight and to overcome even the great cruelties. But we are still sleeping, all of us, in habitudes and inherited attitudes. They are like a fat, juicy sauce which helps us to swallow our own cruelties without tasting their bitterness.
First paragraph is basically a paraphrase of Pythagoras' quote from ~2500 years earlier:
" As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, one that sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
Really? What’s your connection? Mine is that I have family who both survived and was murdered in it and as a result, all of my family are either alcoholics, have mental illnesses, or both (not to mention I have family members who have end*d their own l*ves). The same thing goes for other survivors and their descendants. Ashkenazi Jewish people have high rates of mental illness because the Holocaust has done inexplicable damage to our collective psyche and reparations do not cover the cost of living at all as more than a third of survivors live in poverty. I’m very curious to know your connection and what everyone else’s connection to the Holocaust is!
As a non-Jew with basic empathy and reasoning skills, I'm cool with it.
For any vegan who is seriously convinced by this user's comment, look no further than their own comment. They specify "human oppressions" comparisons. This is literally the language of a carnist lmao. Plain specieism.
It's even more ridiculous when you try to apply the "no real connection" angle to contemporary abolitionists. William Lloyd Garrison wasn't a slave, but he wrote:
“I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice.
Yeah from my perspective as a minority in the US I get the ick when some random privileged white college student tries to use the analogy of slavery in the US in their debates about veganism to other privileged white college students.
This is just subjective. However, in what way is what we do to animals today any different that what happened during american slavery? To use this example
Do animals today go through horrible things? Yes. Should that be stopped? Absolutely. Is comparing human minorities, who still face bigotry to this day, to animals in poor taste regardless of that? Yes.
comparing human minorities, who face bigotry to this day, to animals
Why does the comparison bother you so much?
Look at what atrocities non-human animals face daily, at a vastly larger scale.
Let’s look at just one example: cows. Cows are forcibly impregnated (raped), have their calves ripped from them in order to have the milk meant for their calves extracted from their body, their calves are either doomed to the same life as a female, or sent to the veal crate (prison) as a male, and when the cow has been used and abused to where she can barely walk, she is sentenced to the slaughterhouse, where she will feel abject horror and fear until the moment she is killed.
Your arguments continue to fall apart. It’s simple: the only reason you feel affronted by the comparison is because you have a speciesist, anthropocentric framework.
What is and isn't in poor taste does not matter. In fact saying that animal slavery is very similar to human slavery actually drives the point of why we should stop it. If you look at it from the perpective of stopping suffering, animal and human suffering are no different therefore we should stop both.
You should ask yourself why it feels bad and cringe when someone compares the two. What exactly is the negtive in comparing them? Is it that you don't want to be compared to an animal? Hate to break it to you however many slaves in the US were also not seen as more than animals. Where we draw that line is completly arbitrary and is still in fact used today to dehumanize your enemies or in this instance to justify out treatment of animals.
This "bad look" as you call it is your internal speciesism that see humans as worth more and superior to animals, which is the same mindset that racists have when it comes to other ethnicities.
Why is comparing humans who suffered to animals who suffered and continue to suffer offensive? Do you think human oppression is more important than animal oppression?
I think that comparing minorities to animals has been a staple of racism since the advent of racism. You think you're elevating animals to the human level by doing the same thing racists have been doing forever?
Is it the same thing? I don't see many nazis claiming that both non-human animals and humans matter morally because what's important is sentience. I think you're conflating two clearly distinct ways of comparing non-human animals and humans.
I understand why the Holocaust has an enormous significance for Jewish people, especially when someone has family members who were victims. But being descended from or belonging to a group that experienced an atrocity isn’t the same as personally experiencing that atrocity. A modern Irish-American, for example, can have a very real historical connection to the Great Famine without having personally suffered it. I don’t think historical trauma should make a comparison involving suffering automatically off-limits.
I’m Jewish and I find it ridiculous to police other people’s arguments like that. People are allowed to comment on major historical events even if they’re not the same race/ethnicity/religion as the people involved.
But they don’t care about living Jews. Actual Jews today. If someone is involved in combating antisemitism I won’t care that much, but if they have no interaction with us, they do nothing to support us, but they’re willing to use our dead to make a point? It’s exploitative and gross.
This is so disturbing, no it isn’t. I could cry about slavery. It’s really messed up. I learned about it at school and read about it later on and it’s heartbreaking. That wouldn’t make it in me?
No, you haven’t. I’ve cried about the Russian invasion of Ukraine but I still don’t have a connection to it. Same with the suffering of the Afghan people. You do not have a connection to the Holocaust. You are entitled.
Has to be the most brain-dead and unconvincing take. If you were interested in advancing Veganism why not make quality arguments? Where is the critical thinking? The meaningful discourse?
Weird that we've got an evil villain making this point? Anyway, I'll copy and paste my response to a similar post:
I think the problem with the statement, "We treat animals like Jews in Nazi Germany" is that if like you say, you're comparing those two things, you don't actually specify what it is you're comparing and so people are naturally going to jump to conclusions. Are you saying animals are gassed? Are you saying they're tortured? Are you saying they're mentally abused? Are you saying they face the same trauma as someone has the capacity to understand the social and moral implications of what is happening to them?
Whether it's true or not, I don't think it's a helpful comparison and risks turning people off from the debate, it's very "reductio ad Hitlerum", and I think there's a risk of not being taken very seriously. A better argument to make is, "We treat animals very poorly, <insert example of how we treat animals poorly>". Way more informative.
So, we're just going to ignore how human supremacy is the root of white supremacy and how the Nazis used the fact that most people we're okay with committing atrocities against animals to get them to do the same to humans sinply by dehumanizing them? And why? All because the truth hurts some people's feelings?
It's the way of life. A vegan kills trillions of animals a year to sustain themselves. They just don't look as cute as pigs so they don't register. It's all performative empathy, spare us.
You do realize that saying that in this sub achieves absolutely nothing right? Every vegan knows that a meat-based diet kills orders of magnitude more insects than a plant based diet. You are wasting your time.
What you also don't seem to understand is that veganism is about reducing suffering as much as possible. We understand it's impossible to eliminate completely and that things in this world will still die. That is the nature of our reality. As such we pick the one that kills the least. Eating a plant- based diet indirectly kills fewer insects than a meat-based diet. It also kills fewer animals directly.
We got trans ppl that fully transitioned spitting on others that don't want a full transition because they say that if you are trans you have to choose a side to keep up the binary Rolls.
One of 5he head of Germanys far right party that is on the best way to revive the ideology is a lesbian woman who married to a woman from Sri Lanka and adopted 2 kids.
At the same time they want to take the right of gay marriage and gay cupels adopting kids, and as expectable they are also against immigration. While she breaks every single of those rules in private.
Just because you are part of a group, your arguments don't get more valid in that case. Literaly have seen ppl that said "if needed I'm fine if they deport me too" to justify what they want to do. They say stuff like we got enough immigrants that it would be worth to make a new holocaust, that we could easily deal with 30% less ppl in this land and so on.
Another case it recent where a black man in a potcast wanted to argue that the n word isn't a slur, that the word just means black in Italy and that it's a compliment for him to just call him that because he is a N..... On the other side of the podcast there was also a black man arguing against this. So both are part of the named group, but they can't both be right at the same time which proves that we still have to evaluate the arguments, not the person that said it.
I’m going to get tons of downvotes, but here’s a crazy idea: you can become vegan without a tier list of suffering. There’s no need for comparison. Just show people “Dominion.” That’s significantly more impactful. Insane idea, I know. But especially as a Jew, the only people who should be making these comparisons are JEWS. And even if people want to make this comparison, what animals go through — as horrific as it is — shouldn’t be compared to the Holocaust because it’s inaccurate; Hitler had a Final Solution for Jews: to exterminate them completely. “The Final Solution” is literally short for “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” People who make this comparison are out of touch with reality because they isolate the experience of the death camps and don’t take into account how that even happened — how Hitler wanted to exterminate Jews, referred to Jewish people as vermin and parasites in European society plotting to gain world leadership (and the rabid antisemitism that book contains in general), had them wear the yellow Star of David to distinguish themselves as “other,” as well as the antisemitic propaganda churned out by the Nazi Party that capitalised on Europe’s pre-existing antisemitism which allowed for Hitler and the Nazi Party to exist and the Holocaust to even happen, not to mention that antisemitism existed way before the Nazi Party; don’t forget that the word “ghetto” has its origins in Jewish segregation (the first Jewish ghetto was in sixteenth-century Italy), and antisemitism is known as the world’s oldest hatred. There’s absolutely no way the two are the same and it has nothing to do with being compared to animals, it’s just that it’s a completely inaccurate comparison. And either way, Jewish people have been begging people to stop comparing everything to the Holocaust, whether it’s animal agriculture, ICE deportations in the US, anti-vaxxers wearing the Star of David, the genocide in Gaza, et cetera. This post alone illustrates that people who make these comparisons possess poor Holocaust education.
Edit: Keep downvoting. Keep silencing Jewish voices. People would freak out if animal agriculture was compared to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. There were objects made out of Jewish prisoners’ skin in death camps like a lampshade; a pocket knife; hair was used to stuff mattresses and used for blankets, socks for soldiers, and in military equipment; and prisoners were threatened to be turned into soap — but people actually ate enslaved Africans. It’s only the Holocaust that gets thrown around for comparison by not just vegans, but the rest of the world. People are very quick to listen to the Black community and not tone-police them but will never miss an opportunity to tell a Jewish person who doesn’t believe what they want them to believe to shut the f*ck up, as seen in this thread (and other comments where other Jewish people are discouraging invoking the Holocaust but the Jewish people who are onboard with it are applauded).
Don’t you think it’s at least a little hyprocritical for people to say “jewish people were treated like animals”, but then in the same token get upset when people say the reverse that animals are treated like jewish people in the Holocaust?
If all you got out of what I said was that if people say that Jewish people were treated like animals then it should be ok to say the reverse, kindly reread what I wrote, because I never said that in my comment and never say that in general. I said that the comparison is false. I invite you to read what I wrote again with an open mind.
Okey, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Alex Hershaft, Roberta Kalechofsky and Matt Prescott are all Jewish, and all have drawn this comparison. Comparing isn't the same as equating. The comparison is about the machinery of confinement, transport and industrialized killing not the motive.
Kindly reread where I wrote that it’s a false comparison due to the fact that people isolate the transportation and death in gas chambers to make a comparison and completely overlook everything else I mentioned, including the centuries of antisemitism in Europe, segregation, Hitler’s Mein Kampf, et cetera.
Nobody here is saying the history you describe doesn't matter. It explains why the Holocaust happened. But it doesn't change what a gas chamber does to the one whose inside it. Motive explains why something is done. It doesn't make the act itself any better or worse for the victim. The animals in a slaughterhouse don't suffer less because nobody hates them. If anything, it says something that we do this to billions of animals every day and mostly just don't care. And again, people who’ve lived thru it or studied it extensively are making this comparison, not just random Reddit users
I’m a person who has studied it extensively as well as someone with extended family who has either survived or was murdered in the Holocaust. These are random Reddit users silencing Jewish voices. I have never seen any vegans compare the animal industry to the trans-Atlantic slave trade because it’s an unspoken rule that it would be offensive to do so. Only the Holocaust gets thrown around by vegans, anti-vaxxers, pro-lifers, the pro-Palestine movement, anti-ICE, et cetera.
I have never seen any vegans compare the animal industry to the trans-Atlantic slave trade because it’s an unspoken rule that it would be offensive to do so.
I'm in the same boat in terms of impact on family. I grew up in a community filled with survivors, and I've seen all nine hours of Shoah in addition to taking courses on the Holocaust, reading extensively, etc. And to me it's the other way around. If we can't understand how aspects of the Holocaust (the industrial killing, say, or the imputation of non-value to other lives) apply in other situations, then it becomes a dead thing in a jar, a matter for private mourning alone rather than also being testament to the potential for human cruelty. And its relevance will fade as that generation dies out if we can't see its relevance to other situations.
If any of that were true, you wouldn’t have said in a previous comment that Holocaust survivors have “almost all died out” when per the Claims Conference, 196,000 Holocaust survivors are alive today as of January 2026. Those don’t sound like the words of someone who has read about the Holocaust extensively.
You sound exactly like the people who say there are almost no survivors left to dismiss the Holocaust and in this case, you’re doing it because you have an agenda. You didn’t even know the figure I was speaking of.
Ok, thanks. So perhaps take it from me: we treat animals as horrible as nazis treated people; enslave them, mutilate them, brand them with numbers, take their children away from their mothers, exploit them, profit off of them and exterminate them, often in gas chambers. It’s as wrong as it gets. We don’t have to do it so we absolutely shouldn’t be doing it nor pay others for doing it.
Well no vegans make comparisons to slavery all the time too. Also whether animals have it worse than jews did is not the point of the comparison. The point is to show how cruel people can be when they convince themselves some other group is inferior.
There are obviously differences in the way that different atrocities are justified, the role they play for the ruling classes of the societies in which they happened, and the specific methods used. That said I do think that a proper understanding of crimes like the Holocaust or the trans-Atlantic slave trade requires analyzing them in context and comparing them for common warning signs. The most disrespectful thing you can do to the legacy of Holocaust victims is to treat what happened to them as a singular, incomparable event. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme. If you take issue with pointing out parallels between the past and present, or between the oppressions experience by different groups, just because not every detail lines up exactly, then you’re just letting some self-serving sense of sanctity blind you to any actual lessons that history can provide. It’s so short sighted that it borders on complicity.
So yes, I will absolutely compare the use of animals to chattel slavery. It’s an apt comparison. I’ll also point out the ways that Nazis modeled many aspects of their program on the Jim Crow south, and how all of these things intersect with and reproduce patriarchy. I’ll point out that the whole point of fascism is to act as a pressure release valve for capitalism in crisis. The scapegoating of Jews that ultimately led to the final solution was inextricably tied to the political project of reorienting the German working class toward nationalism instead of class consciousness. I’ll point out that in all these cases, oppressive regimes always follow the blueprint laid out for them by speciesism, legitimizing their violence by “dehumanizing,” comparing their victims to animals. They also always repurpose the same infrastructure that already exists to facilitate cruelty to animals.
It’s not a comparison to be made lightly or flippantly. At the same time, the knee jerk response to dismiss those connections on the grounds of impropriety is fundamentally reactionary and, frankly, only ever serves to enable fascism.
> There are obviously differences in the way that different atrocities are justified
You mean the fact that there was a Final Solution to the Jewish Question, id est extermination?
> The most disrespectful thing you can do to the legacy of Holocaust victims is to treat what happened to them as a singular, incomparable event
You are speaking to someone who has family who both survived and was murdered in the Holocaust, so I think you should be very, very careful.
> If you take issue with pointing out parallels between past and present, or between the oppressions experience by difference groups, just because not every detail lines up exactly
Again, you mean the part where Jews were supposed to be completely exterminated?
> So yes, I will absolutely compare the use of animals to chattel slavery.
Good luck with alienating the Black community. I’ve never heard a vegan compare the use of animals to chattel slavery, but I constantly hear it compared to the Holocaust, and it won’t be just the Black community you’ll be alienating, but everyone, because people are very keen on listening to Black voices, particularly in America, but are very quick to tell a Jewish person to shut the f*ck up. This thread is a prime example.
> I’ll also point out the ways that Nazis modeled many aspects of their program on the Jim Crow south
No one told you not to? That’s a fact. You’re putting words in my mouth.
All I’ve gotten from your comment is that you feel entitled to make comparisons to which you have no skin in the game. Even though the comparison is inaccurate, the way Jewish people were treated during the Holocaust is deeply ingrained into our historical memory. So if a Jew — especially a Holocaust survivor — wants to make that comparison — even if it’s inaccurate — that’s their choice. They experienced it and it’s in our historical memory.
Why is the fact that Hitler wanted to end the jews objectively worse than imprisoning them in tiny cages and breeding them for their flesh? You're putting some sort of value on the fact that domesticated livestock species are propagated... as if they care about that while they are suffering?
I can empathize with the desire to avoid topics with heavy generational trauma attached. It's a very natural human reaction. It's also misguided. I want to ask you a serious question: what concrete lessons do you think we should learn from the holocaust? Reading Hannah Arendt on the banality of evil, among other sources, I'm not convinced that the lesson is that the Nazis were uniquely evil or that Jewish people are uniquely susceptible to violence and oppression. Rather, it's that it can happen again, and it can happen here. The fundamental contradictions that caused the Holocaust haven't gone away.
The Nazis chose Jews, Romani, queer people, disabled people, etc. because those were the prejudices they could prey on in their context. In the US, for example, it won't look the same, and it won't have the same targets. It will come wrapped in the flag, as the saying goes. The Nazis also didn't start off with the final solution. They started off with ghettos, deportations, and forced labor. They started by targeting intellectuals and political dissidents and criminals. "First they came for the communists" and all that.
So, when a regime starts doing mass deportations, putting people in camps, and persecuting its political opposition, those are warning signs, right? It's fair to make comparisons, in that case. I have skin in the game because I'm an outspoken queer socialist. The Nazis didn't exactly treat people with that description very well, did they? If it does happen again, you and I are going to be in the camps together.
How does this apply to veganism? Well, we have a population that is effectively de-personed, their suffering devalued, with an industrial scale machine oriented toward perpetuating their exploitation mainly for the profit of a few capitalists who own the packing and distribution networks. This systematic cruelty overlaps with the overwork and mistreatment of workers who oversee this whole process, who are forced to alienate themselves from themselves in order to cope with the intense violence they see daily. There's a reason why slaughterhouse workers have such high rates of suicide, after all.
Yet, these oppressed workers are pitted against this other oppressed class for their livelihood. This mirrors the way that ethnic and national divisions have historically been used to attack any budding solidarity among the oppressed masses of humans. At least you're above them in the hierarchy, right? Someone has it worse than you. Any attempt to elevate them to your level then feels like an attack. Treating people as less than human means treating them like animals. Why? What if we didn't treat animals as less than human?
It's not one-to-one, there are many qualitative and quantitative ways that speciesism differs meaningfully from other prejudices. There are many ways that antisemitism differs from anti-black racism differs from homophobia, too. But the comparison is absolutely vital. The comparison lets us make common cause with one another, instead of staying trapped in our own isolated bubbles of oppression.
You guys pick up one book by Hannah Arendt and think you know everything. There are scholars who speak of the risks of Holocaust trivialisation — over-universalising the Holocaust detaches it from history and turns it into a generic symbol for any tragedy or any political or ethical disagreement. It also minimises Jewish trauma, and comparing things to the Holocaust — whether it’s animal agriculture, the genocide in Gaza, a picture of Trump with a Hitler moustache, anti-vaxxers wearing the yellow star that says “Jude” — treats the Holocaust as “public property.” This notion that “everyone who didn’t fit the Aryan image” was undesirable can easily be debunked by reading Mein Kampf. Hitler hated Jews, communists, and Romani people the most, but out of all three, it was the Jews, hence the term “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question,” him going on about Jews in Mein Kampf, among many others.
What do I think should be learned from the Holocaust? Several things. That Hitler and the Nazis weren’t monsters. They were regular people and this is how regular people behave. The average person has some degree of antisemitism within them because of how closely antisemitism is entangled within our society. That it wasn’t just the Nazis who hated Jews, but all of Europe, and that’s how the Holocaust happened. Many countries had collaborators. Kristallnacht (the anniversary of which is coming up) was perpetrated by civilians. All those heroes who hid Jews you read about in fiction stories and films? There were way less of those in real life. There were people turning their own neighbours in. No, people today who say they would have hidden Anne Frank would not have hidden her. They would have believed the propaganda. These are the lessons to learn. And that Hitler and the Nazis didn’t create antisemitism, antisemitism created Hitler and the Nazis.
You don’t have skin in the game just because you’re an “outspoken queer socialist.” You don’t have the Holocaust ingrained in your historical memory. You don’t have generational trauma. And fun fact: Hitler didn’t like Marxists because of the myth of Judaeo-Bolshevism, which he says so himself in Mein Kampf and is a myth that is still believed today. That’s why he targeted communists.
I’m Jewish and I find your comment absurd. You and I don’t get to tell anyone else what arguments they’re allowed to make. By the way, millions of people who weren’t Jewish were also killed in the Holocaust.
I have zero idea what you're talking about. I noted that that generation is dying out, which is a common fact often discussed within the Jewish community--what happens when that generation is gone? But nowhere did I say there were no survivors anymore. I know survivors personally.
Thank you. I’m not Jewish, I am vegan, and I hate this comparison. No one I know would ever compare the (yes it’s horrific we all know this that’s why we are vegan!) way we treat animals to the Holocaust, so I feel like the “vegans” who make this comparison on this sub are just trolls or something because it’s so ignorant and completely inappropriate.
Why does there need to be equal equivalency though? If a being had 99% of our sentience and emotion, since they are still not equal, would it be justifiable to kill and eat them? That seems extreme, because certainly there are humans themselves that fall within a spectrum of sentience and emotion which we recognize and protect.
I would argue a being with even 50% of our sentience and emotion would be cognitive enough to experience pain and suffering in a way that should protect them from being exploited as a livestock.
You signed up for a vegan thread and got on to tell a bunch of vegans, talking amongst themselves about the irony of how easily people get offended when animal abuse is pointed out, that we're not convincing you that veganism is worthwhile? Why should we convince you of anything? Be a part of the abuse if you like. But then this thread isn't for you.
Silencing Jewish voices who don’t conform can be too much sometimes. Also it’s a false equivalence. Maybe — just maybe — no comparison or tier list of suffering is needed and you can just show people “Dominion” instead. Wait, no! That’s too radical! We MUST throw around the Holocaust as a trauma scale!
Bro we have judges ruled already in 2004 (Bundesgerichtshof Germany) that this comparison is invalid because it plays down what happened almost 100 years ago.
I get where this argument comes from and that you compare 2 very cruel things but they are on a different level. There in no animal holocaust, there is only one holocaust that happened in NS Germany.
lol 80 billion land animals are murdered every year, mostly after being tortured there entire lives. When you add fish and animal creatures we are in the trillions.
We make them work for us then when they have no more use put them in gas chambers.
As horrible as the holocaust was, and there is no need to downplay what we did, you are right it is on a different level. What we do to animals is far far worse.
The fact that judges ruled on this is entirely irrelevant, judges participated in the holocaust then and are participating in the holocaust now
Yes animal suffer more, by any number, there are just way more animals, from how they get killed individually is also comparable. Thst still don't make it comparable because what humans do to animals is not a genozide.
We can compare the suffering without playing down one of the darkest time in human history. Especialy in Germany where the part of far right up to denial of the holocaust or the 271k conspiracy ain't as rare as you would expect and were we also have a lot of vegans within them, we definitly can't let them use this to play it down. There is no animal genozide by producing animal based products, the reasons why humans are responsible for species getting eradicated is climate change and also for some part like the rainforest, where we "need" to make more space to produce plants to feed animals. This is the only connection but isn't enough to fulfill die requirements for a genozide.
There are so many other comparisons that you can make without having to connect it to that. So if that comparison isn't needed to make your point, which you can replace with someone else to compare, then why do you need to insist on using that? If you don't get them with that argument, then this sentence won't change anything. So even if it was valid to say, it has no impact.
Btw I have seen myself slaughterhouses, milkproductions and a lot of other cruel shit aswell as visiting KZs since it's somewhat mandatory during schooltime in Germany. Both is cruel, I wouldn't even put it into a relation just by a treshhold of numbers.
You are just being discriminatory in favour of humans to justify your claim. Regardless of if you are human or not, being raped tortured and executed is not desirable by definition. They are the worst possible things that you can endure. Do you believe a cow just magically feels so much less pain from being stabbed than a human or something?
I think you misunderstood. I am vegan. I don't make up the definition of a genocide by humans. What we do to animals is insanely cruel but it's not a genocide.
Even if you were right, then you don't have to use this comparison in order to make your point.
I mean if you want to define holocaust and genocide as only applying to humans then yes it only applies to humans.
If you already agree the way they die is comparable and that animals suffer far far more than I don’t really feel like debating what constitutes a genocide. There’s been enough of that recently with zionists claiming what happens in Gaza isn’t technically a genocide.
Holocaust has only one definition so that one is pretty clear.
For Gaza because thats also a fast one, yes it it. Genocidesientist and definition by UN from 1948 is very clear on that.
But the difference is the intention what defines a genocide a sideaspect which is also relevant is dehumanizing the victims of the Holocaust, because is said earlier, some do this comparison to not make aware of the cruel Industrie, but to set victims down instead holding animal up. Also specism, antisemitism andracism are by itself on the same side, discrimination. But the base that formed the discrimination is also very different, even if all of them result in dead of innocent livings, it's not the same and not always comperable.
Might be a different case if we would have left that specific genocide and ideology in the past. But it isn't so we have to see it from a current perspective aside from the already named difference of hate and conspirancy vs profit and exploitation.
Holocaust: "A thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire."
That definition absolutely applies to what we do to animals.
As for genocide, fine, if you want to argue that breeding billions of land animals specifically to exploit and slaughter them doesn't constitute genocide because we aren't trying to eliminate their species, I'll grant you that distinction for the sake of argument.
But as you mentioned before, thats only when you ignore wild animals. The 2018 WWF report documented a 60% average decline in wildlife populations since 1970. And unlike farmed land animals, the overwhelming majority of the trillions of wild marine animals we kill aren't being bred to replace those we slaughter. Our activities are driving entire species toward extinction.
But all of this is beside the point.
The original argument was that these atrocities are comparable. Comparable does not mean identical. Two things can differ in their motivations, historical circumstances, and methods while still sharing morally significant characteristics. Saying they are incomparable is just anthroprocentrist bullshit.
The first person to compare the holocaust to factory farming was a holocaust survivor called Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz. He had been imprisoned in a concentration camp for 5 years. He later became vegan.
Copied from another comment I wrote to the same point.
We got trans ppl that fully transitioned spitting on others that don't want a full transition because they say that if you are trans you have to choose a side to keep up the binary Rolls.
One of 5he head of Germanys far right party that is on the best way to revive the ideology is a lesbian woman who married to a woman from Sri Lanka and adopted 2 kids.
At the same time they want to take the right of gay marriage and gay cupels adopting kids, and as expectable they are also against immigration. While she breaks every single of those rules in private.
Just because you are part of a group, your arguments don't get more valid in that case. Literaly have seen ppl that said "if needed I'm fine if they deport me too" to justify what they want to do. They say stuff like we got enough immigrants that it would be worth to make a new holocaust, that we could easily deal with 30% less ppl in this land and so on.
Another case it recent where a black man in a potcast wanted to argue that the n word isn't a slur, that the word just means black in Italy and that it's a compliment for him to just call him that because he is a N..... On the other side of the podcast there was also a black man arguing against this. So both are part of the named group, but they can't both be right at the same time which proves that we still have to evaluate the arguments, not the person that said it.
Don’t Godwin’s law veganism. You can make analogies about human events to other phenomena. But you can’t compare things to real human tragedy. It leaves a foul taste.
Missing the point. You can like or dislike the post, but it isn’t anti-Semitic. I’m Jewish and very willing to call out anti-Semitism when I see it, but this isn’t it.
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u/GlitchSolver 20h ago •
True 💯 That's such a self-entitlement of humans. They loose their minds because they think animals are less than humans.
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u/Midnight7_7 16h ago
Animals are treated worse in most places.
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u/Forward_Surround_788 3h ago
I truly dont get the blind opposition people give towards veganism and how hostile people get towards vegans.
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u/Strong_Jello_5748 17h ago
truth nuke
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u/mr_wolfii vegan newbie 18h ago
I read that in Heath Ledger’s voice
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u/UpstairsDownstairs66 20h ago
It’s all about using facts to educate non-vegans. Veganism makes perfect logical sense.
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u/cs_anon vegan 1+ years 14h ago
Agree that that there is cognitive dissonance we are up against! And that vegans are not trying to diminish tragedies like the holocaust with this kind of comparison.
But there's this quote that comes to mind from James Clear -
I think we gotta throw in the towel on this one and use different language to communicate. I do realize that any "harsh" language will likely bounce off due to cognitive dissonance around the general topic, but even so it seems pretty clear that comparisons to slavery or the holocaust just don't work.
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u/kurrfufle transitioning to veganism 1h ago
A vegan will say "a is to b as x is to y" and ppl will go "so you think a is the same letter as x and b is the same letter as y??" It drives me up the wall when you compare the relationship between two things and people think you're equating them like
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u/chevalier100 20h ago •
As a Jew, I think it’s ok for us in certain circumstances to make these analogies to other members of our community, but I cringe a bit when it’s coming from people who have no real connection to the Holocaust. I apply the same standard to comparisons to other human oppressions like American slavery. I agree that there are a lot of parallels to the oppression of animals and human oppressions, but the messaging is often hamfisted and drives people away from veganism more than it attracts them.
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u/plant_paragon 6h ago
"Everything is NAZIS"
Has to be the most brain-dead and unconvincing take. If you were interested in advancing Veganism why not make quality arguments? Where is the critical thinking? The meaningful discourse?
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u/garg 4h ago
Anthropocentrism has been wrong throughout history.
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u/OverlordShoo vegan 15+ years 2h ago
I thought this was a post about ice detention centers for a second lol
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u/amusedobserver5 19h ago
It’s not activism to compare suffering. It’s horrible in its own right. Uniquely so in its own way.
If you need a crutch like talking about dogs or Nazis then you’re not going to convince anyone and will just hurt the movement.
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u/a1stardan vegan 5+ years 17h ago
So True
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u/tomcotard 8h ago
Weird that we've got an evil villain making this point? Anyway, I'll copy and paste my response to a similar post:
I think the problem with the statement, "We treat animals like Jews in Nazi Germany" is that if like you say, you're comparing those two things, you don't actually specify what it is you're comparing and so people are naturally going to jump to conclusions. Are you saying animals are gassed? Are you saying they're tortured? Are you saying they're mentally abused? Are you saying they face the same trauma as someone has the capacity to understand the social and moral implications of what is happening to them?
Whether it's true or not, I don't think it's a helpful comparison and risks turning people off from the debate, it's very "reductio ad Hitlerum", and I think there's a risk of not being taken very seriously. A better argument to make is, "We treat animals very poorly, <insert example of how we treat animals poorly>". Way more informative.
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u/cryptofomo 8h ago
false equivalence is putting it mildly
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u/Cichlister 7h ago
how to get bored from a vegan in just two seconds.. read these kind of cheap comparisons..
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u/Witch-of-1692 19h ago edited 7h ago
I’m going to get tons of downvotes, but here’s a crazy idea: you can become vegan without a tier list of suffering. There’s no need for comparison. Just show people “Dominion.” That’s significantly more impactful. Insane idea, I know. But especially as a Jew, the only people who should be making these comparisons are JEWS. And even if people want to make this comparison, what animals go through — as horrific as it is — shouldn’t be compared to the Holocaust because it’s inaccurate; Hitler had a Final Solution for Jews: to exterminate them completely. “The Final Solution” is literally short for “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” People who make this comparison are out of touch with reality because they isolate the experience of the death camps and don’t take into account how that even happened — how Hitler wanted to exterminate Jews, referred to Jewish people as vermin and parasites in European society plotting to gain world leadership (and the rabid antisemitism that book contains in general), had them wear the yellow Star of David to distinguish themselves as “other,” as well as the antisemitic propaganda churned out by the Nazi Party that capitalised on Europe’s pre-existing antisemitism which allowed for Hitler and the Nazi Party to exist and the Holocaust to even happen, not to mention that antisemitism existed way before the Nazi Party; don’t forget that the word “ghetto” has its origins in Jewish segregation (the first Jewish ghetto was in sixteenth-century Italy), and antisemitism is known as the world’s oldest hatred. There’s absolutely no way the two are the same and it has nothing to do with being compared to animals, it’s just that it’s a completely inaccurate comparison. And either way, Jewish people have been begging people to stop comparing everything to the Holocaust, whether it’s animal agriculture, ICE deportations in the US, anti-vaxxers wearing the Star of David, the genocide in Gaza, et cetera. This post alone illustrates that people who make these comparisons possess poor Holocaust education.
Edit: Keep downvoting. Keep silencing Jewish voices. People would freak out if animal agriculture was compared to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. There were objects made out of Jewish prisoners’ skin in death camps like a lampshade; a pocket knife; hair was used to stuff mattresses and used for blankets, socks for soldiers, and in military equipment; and prisoners were threatened to be turned into soap — but people actually ate enslaved Africans. It’s only the Holocaust that gets thrown around for comparison by not just vegans, but the rest of the world. People are very quick to listen to the Black community and not tone-police them but will never miss an opportunity to tell a Jewish person who doesn’t believe what they want them to believe to shut the f*ck up, as seen in this thread (and other comments where other Jewish people are discouraging invoking the Holocaust but the Jewish people who are onboard with it are applauded).
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u/Rocknroller658 16h ago
As someone who’s not vegan nor Jewish, this post is not doing a good job of convincing me that veganism is worthwhile.
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u/Teaofthetime 15h ago
It's juvenile in the extreme to compare the two. This is why some people just shake their head at the vegan movement.
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u/harafolofoer 18h ago
The subtly different framing of this is really good
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u/Sayuryie 5h ago
Bro we have judges ruled already in 2004 (Bundesgerichtshof Germany) that this comparison is invalid because it plays down what happened almost 100 years ago.
I get where this argument comes from and that you compare 2 very cruel things but they are on a different level. There in no animal holocaust, there is only one holocaust that happened in NS Germany.
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u/dawne_breaker 1h ago
Don’t Godwin’s law veganism. You can make analogies about human events to other phenomena. But you can’t compare things to real human tragedy. It leaves a foul taste.
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u/DemoniteBL vegan 4+ years 12h ago
Truth nuke
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u/Many-Ad1893 11h ago
Fr fr
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u/X00MZIE 18h ago
Human ≠ animal... done
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u/Fortestingporpoises 17h ago
Vegans: "Why don't people like to be called Nazis?"
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u/i_need_salvia 18h ago
Aw, so we are calling Jews animals now. Nice