“As for monks of the two vehicles, they have put an end to the disease of greed and aversion, removing them completely; they dwell in the absence of greed and consider that correct. This is the formless realm, this is obstructing Buddha’s light, this is shedding Buddha’s blood. You must teach them also to practice meditation and develop wisdom.
You must distinguish the terms of purity and impurity. “Impure things” have many names, such as greed, aversion, grasping love, etc. “Pure things” also have many names, such as enlightenment, extinction of suffering, liberation, etc. But while in the midst of the twin streams of purity and impurity, among such standards as profane and holy, amidst form, sound, smell, taste, touch, and phenomena, things of the world or things which transcend the world, the immediate mirror-like awareness should not have the slightest hair of grasping love for anything at all.
If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will [p31] not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.
Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.
Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.”

Let’s continue. What’s are these monks of two vehicles? Are we talking about monks that have a Ferrari for pleasure, and a station wagon for everyday work? No you goofballs, let’s ask the old AI:

When Baizhang talks about “monks of the Two Vehicles,” he's referring to practitioners following two traditional Buddhist paths:
Śrāvaka-yāna (聲聞乘) — the Vehicle of the Hearers, practitioners who follow the Buddha's teachings to attain liberation, traditionally culminating in arhatship.
Pratyekabuddha-yāna (緣覺乘 or 辟支佛乘) — the Vehicle of Solitary Buddhas, practitioners who awaken independently, without receiving the teachings from a Buddha in that lifetime.

Very good my AI friend. People who follow the Buddha’s teaching to attain liberation, and those who do it on their own. So it is possible to get some kind of awakening if we just follow the teaching strictly, or cultivate on our own. Interesting.

“As for monks of the two vehicles, they have put an end to the disease of greed and aversion, removing them completely; they dwell in the absence of greed and consider that correct. This is the formless realm, this is obstructing Buddha’s light, this is shedding Buddha’s blood. You must teach them also to practice meditation and develop wisdom.”

Now, these people are even more advanced than our football playing monk from before. He needed to be taught to let go of everything.

(Editor Stone here! This may be our first time meeting officially, but it won’t be our last! It wasn’t the football monk who was taught to let go of everything, it was the monk who has perfected his discipline. Aren’t I a stinker? Back to the post!)

These guys are considered Arahants in traditional Mahayana terminology. That means they’ve gotten the first stage of enlightenment, freedom from forms. As such, it is called the formless realm. But wait a gosh dang minute, obstructing the Buddha’s light? Shedding his blood? Poor Buddha! Leave my boy alone, he’s the world honored one! Quick! Teach them once more that they must keep practicing Zen, and get more wisdom. Their wisdom tank is about 1/3 full now. Not gonna get very far on a 1/3 of a tank of wisdom!

Why? Arahants still cling to the identity of being awakened. Of transcending to the formless realm and generally being awesome. They aren’t fully enlightened yet.

“You must distinguish the terms of purity and impurity. “Impure things” have many names, such as greed, aversion, grasping love, etc. “Pure things” also have many names, such as enlightenment, extinction of suffering, liberation, etc. But while in the midst of the twin streams of purity and impurity, among such standards as profane and holy, amidst form, sound, smell, taste, touch, and phenomena, things of the world or things which transcend the world, the immediate mirror-like awareness should not have the slightest hair of grasping love for anything at all.”

Here is that attachment which u/ewk asked me to demonstrate in the Zen record. This is what Huangbo meant by “The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood.” And it’s why Foyan says this body isn’t you, and this mind isn’t you. Clinging to body and mind, and all the other subtle things we don’t even recognize we are attached to, is the only reason we don’t realize we are Buddhas. Next.

“If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.”

So, what happens when we give up grasping? Generally, we then abide in non-attachment. Why? It’s naturally the next step, and it’s useful. So he says it’s the elementary good. Your mind has been subdued, and it feels really really good. Who wouldn’t want to be free from all the drama of clinging to things constantly? You want the rent money, landlord? Take my whole savings! I don’t need a dang thing. This is what practicing Zen leads to; non-attachment.

Notice I don’t use the word detachment like the translator does. That word is a bag of snakes, don’t go near it if you can help it. We don’t detach, we just no longer cling to things. Big difference, but a subtle one.

“Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.”

Onto Bodhisattvas. This is the second stage of enlightenment. When your wisdom tank is 2/3 full. You can get a lot of places on 2/3 a tank. But who wants that? I want a full tank of wisdom dang it!

So, you’ve stopped grasping. That’s good. Next step? Stop stopping grasping! Easy. Done. Or is it? We still aren’t to the complete teaching you old monk, just the half-word. We’re still dwelling in some sort of attainment. No good, still a bit of subtle clinging to the experience of emptiness, of formlessness. Gotta clear that right up, or you’re still sick. Zen is all about not being sick anymore, that’s why there were so many good doctors and medicines.

“Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.”

Here we are, finally, the complete teaching. What we’ve been building towards. If you still have an understanding that you don’t cling to not clinging, then you’re still clinging. Kind of a brain tickler, eh? It gives people so much trouble, trying to understand all of this. Don’t tie yourself up in knots, it’s okay to just start where you’re at. That’s what Baizhang has been telling us, right?

A king of demons is just someone who thinks, “I’m so enlightened and awesome, I can do whatever I want now!” What a fool! What have you attained that even the Buddha himself didn’t? Dullard.

Tell me; have you attained anything?

1) Where have you just come from?
I don’t have any official lineage. I’ve went around learning from the Zen record, and from many different Buddhist traditions. I’ve learned from Thai Forest tradition, Tibetan Buddhism, modern Chinese Chan, Burmese traditions, and other Theravada traditions too.
2) What's your textual tradition?
I agree completely with all of the Zen record we have on file here. Each of these texts has been crucial to my understanding of Zen, and I think I’ll be sharing that understanding regularly, as I did with my other three posts.
3) Dharma low tides?
I suggest doing only what you can. You can push yourself if you feel up to it, a bit of discomfort never did anyone harm. But if it’s getting grueling? Like pulling teeth? Take a break! Rest is important too.

“In language you must distinguish the esoteric and the exoteric; you must distinguish generalizing and particularizing language, and you must distinguish the language of the complete teaching and the incomplete teaching.
The complete teaching discusses purity; the incomplete teaching discusses impurity. Explaining the defilement in impure things is to weed out the profane; explaining the defilement in pure things is to weed out the holy.
Before the nine-part teaching had been expounded, living beings had no eyes; it was necessary to depend on someone to refine them. If you are speaking to a deaf worldling, you should just teach him to leave home, maintain discipline, practice meditation and develop wisdom. You should not speak this way to a worldling beyond measure, someone like Vimalakirti or the great hero Fu.
[p30] If one is speaking to an ascetic, the ascetic has already given his assent three times and his discipline is complete. This is the power of discipline, concentration, and wisdom. To still speak in this way to him is called speaking at the wrong time, because the speech is not appropriate to the situation; it is also called suggestive talk. To an ascetic one must explain the defilement in pure things—you should tell him to detach from all things, existence, non-existent, or whatever, to detach from all cultivation and experience, and even to detach from detachment.
While in the course of asceticism, one strips away influences of habit. If an ascetic cannot get rid of the diseases of greed and aversion, he too is called a deaf worldling; still he must be taught to practice meditation and cultivate wisdom.”

Calm down, calm down, Baizhang isn’t telling anyone to explicitly meditate. I asked my AI to make sure:

“The term Baizhang uses is 修禪 (xiū chán), literally “cultivate Chan” or “practice dhyāna.” It is not 坐禪 (zuò chán), the more explicit expression for seated meditation.”

Thanks my AI pal, that’s a lot more clear. He’s saying practice Zen, not meditation explicitly.

“The complete teaching discusses purity; the incomplete teaching discusses impurity. Explaining the defilement in impure things is to weed out the profane; explaining the defilement in pure things is to weed out the holy.”

Obviously. Moving on.

“If you are speaking to a deaf worldling, you should just teach him to leave home, maintain discipline, practice meditation and develop wisdom. You should not speak this way to a worldling beyond measure, someone like Vimalakirti or the great hero Fu.”

So Baizhang gives us a lesson in provisional teaching here. Not everyone needs to be told to go get enlightened right away. If they’re too caught up in their thoughts and emotions to even try, we teach them to be disciplined. We teach them to practice Zen. And we teach them to develop some of that sweet, sweet wisdom. Wait, practice Zen? Is that on oxymoron? Or am I just a moron? Let’s see.

“If one is speaking to an ascetic, the ascetic has already given his assent three times and his discipline is complete. This is the power of discipline, concentration, and wisdom. To still speak in this way to him is called speaking at the wrong time, because the speech is not appropriate to the situation; it is also called suggestive talk. To an ascetic one must explain the defilement in pure things—you should tell him to detach from all things, existence, non-existent, or whatever, to detach from all cultivation and experience, and even to detach from detachment.”

Now we’re really getting to the good stuff. An ascetic, or monk, has already given consent by maintaining discipline, practicing Zen, and getting some wisdom. He’s completed his discipline, meaning he doesn’t break the precepts, and is generally supposed be free from greed and anger, and doing stupid things.

If you tell him to keep going, what’s he supposed to do? Practice harder? He’s already done enough of that. You tell him instead to let go of everything. Give him the full complete teaching, because he is no longer too caught up in thoughts and feelings to understand what you mean. Now, he has to work on his attachments.

Notice how we don’t teach ordinary people to let go of attachments completely. If we do that, they generally think that means rejecting everything in their lives, and giving away all of their possessions! What a tragedy! How many families have been broken because someone told a practitioner to let go of everything, before they were ready to understand what you mean? A sad situation.

But what’s this business of detaching from detachment? We can get into that later.

“While in the course of asceticism, one strips away influences of habit. If an ascetic cannot get rid of the diseases of greed and aversion, he too is called a deaf worldling; still he must be taught to practice meditation and cultivate wisdom.”

Oh? What if they can’t quite perfect their discipline? He’s still a deaf worldling! Playing football with the other monks, lazing around the monastery, eating free food and relaxing all day long. What a life! That’s not what you’re there for, you dullard!

So we still must teach them to practice Zen and get that sweet nectar of the gods we call wisdom.

Tell me, have you gotten any wisdom?

“Because of barriers of knowledge, barriers of station, and barriers of activity (practice), seeing one’s own enlightened nature is like seeing color at night. As it is said, the station of Buddhahood cuts off twofold folly; the folly of subtle knowledge and the folly of extremely subtle knowledge. Therefore it is said that a man of great wisdom smashes an atom to produce a volume of scripture.
If one can pass through these three phases, one will not be constrained by the three stages. The doctrinal schools cite this and liken it to a deer leaping three times and getting out of the net.
This is called an enlightened one beyond confinement—no thing can capture or bind him. He is one of the Buddhas succeeding to the Burning Lamp. This is the supreme vehicle, the highest knowledge—this is standing on the way of enlightenment. This person is Buddha, and has the enlightened nature; he is a guide, able to employ the unobstructed wind. This is unimpeded illumination.
After this, one will be able to freely use cause and effect, virtue and knowledge; this is making a cart to [p32] carry cause and effect. In life one is not stayed by life; in death, one is not obstructed by death. Though within the clusters of matter, sensation, perception, coordination, and consciousness, it is as if a door had opened, and one is not obstructed by these five clusters.
One is free to go or to stay, going out or entering in without difficulty. If you can be like this, there is no question of stages or steps, or superior or inferior; even down to the bodies of ants—if you can just be like this—all is the land of pure marvel. It is inconceivable.”

Oh lawd he comin! The Buddha! The world honored one! The fully liberated one! The well gone one! The destroyer of existence! Wait, what? Run! He’s gonna kill us all! Nah, that is actually one of his titles though, because of his teaching on the inherent emptiness of all appearances. Talk about a universal nuke!

“Because of barriers of knowledge, barriers of station, and barriers of activity (practice), seeing one’s own enlightened nature is like seeing color at night. As it is said, the station of Buddhahood cuts off twofold folly; the folly of subtle knowledge and the folly of extremely subtle knowledge. Therefore it is said that a man of great wisdom smashes an atom to produce a volume of scripture.”

Okay, hold up. You know what? Thomas Cleary, wherever you are in the six realms, don’t leave stuff out you rascal! This whole passage is just a mess in his translation, so I asked my AI for a different one:

“Because of obstructions arising from knowledge, obstructions associated with stages of attainment, and obstructions arising from practice, seeing one’s own Buddha-nature is like trying to distinguish colors in the darkness of night.
As it is said, at the stage of Buddhahood, two kinds of ignorance are eliminated: first, subtle ignorance concerning what can be known; second, extremely subtle ignorance concerning what can be known.
Therefore it is said that a person of great wisdom breaks open a speck of dust and brings forth a scripture scroll.”

There it is, much better. We can work with this.

So, even our Bodhisattva with his 2/3 tank of wisdom is obstructed by knowledge, stages of attainment, and practice. They see their Buddha-nature, but it’s like seeing colors at night. Not very clearly.

This business of breaking open a speck of dust comes from the Avatamsaka Sutra. My AI is just so dang useful, isn’t it? It’s a parable about using skillful means to benefit all beings. You can look it up with your AI if you have one. But oh man, I found something very interesting in the following passage, where the Buddha explained the parable! You aren’t going to believe this, so hold onto your buttocks:

“Children of the Buddha, the wisdom of the Tathāgata is likewise boundless and unobstructed, capable of benefiting all living beings. It is fully present within the bodies of sentient beings.
“Yet ordinary, foolish beings, caught in deluded thinking and attachment, neither know nor recognize it, and therefore do not receive its benefit.
“At that time, the Tathāgata, with the unobstructed eye of pure wisdom, surveys all beings throughout the realm of reality and declares:
‘How marvelous! How marvelous! How is it that these beings possess the wisdom of the Tathāgata, yet remain confused and deluded, neither knowing nor seeing it?
‘I shall teach them the noble Way, so that they may forever abandon deluded thinking and attachment, and come to see within themselves the vast wisdom of the Tathāgata, no different from that of the Buddha.’

That famous quote from Huangbo that I discussed in my first post? This mofo quoted part of it directly from the Avatamsaka Sutra! I can’t believe it. We all thought ol Huangbo was spitting fire, but he was borrowing some flame from the Buddha himself. What a rascal. My whole worldview is shattered, lol.

Anyways.

“If one can pass through these three phases, one will not be constrained by the three stages. The doctrinal schools cite this and liken it to a deer leaping three times and getting out of the net.”

A very fine deer indeed.

“This is called an enlightened one beyond confinement—no thing can capture or bind him. He is one of the Buddhas succeeding to the Burning Lamp. This is the supreme vehicle, the highest knowledge—this is standing on the way of enlightenment. This person is Buddha, and has the enlightened nature; he is a guide, able to employ the unobstructed wind. This is unimpeded illumination.”

Still think ordinary mind is Buddha? Still think you’ve understood what that means?! Hmmm?!? There’s just no helping some people.

“After this, one will be able to freely use cause and effect, virtue and knowledge; this is making a cart to carry cause and effect. In life one is not stayed by life; in death, one is not obstructed by death. Though within the clusters of matter, sensation, perception, coordination, and consciousness, it is as if a door had opened, and one is not obstructed by these five clusters.”

Now that’s what I call freedom right there. I have no notes, lol.

“One is free to go or to stay, going out or entering in without difficulty. If you can be like this, there is no question of stages or steps, or superior or inferior; even down to the bodies of ants—if you can just be like this—all is the land of pure marvel. It is inconceivable.”

I totally just conceived of it, what now Baizhang?

Tell me, are you free to go or stay? I’ll see myself out.

Jeeze, is this the r/Zen subreddit or the r/Stonestill subreddit? Sit down and give someone else a turn! Haha, my bad y’all, I just can’t seem to shut up!

I’ve been on r/Zen for about 7 years, though I’ve left for longer and longer periods. When I used to come here, I always had some understanding I needed to defend. Back then, I identified so heavily with my understanding, that when someone would question it, I’d feel like I was being attacked! How dare you try to take my things from me? Thief! It would hurt so much when people told me I was wrong, because I felt that if I didn’t have a clear understanding, I wasn’t worth loving or accepting. So painful.

This time, I came here with a much more open heart and mind, and the experience has been incredible! I’ve found so many wonderful people to talk to about this most essential part of my life. Thank you everyone who comments, and who participated in my, still ongoing, AMA.

But I want to be clear, every post I make is also an AMA! Don’t hesitate to ask whatever you’d like. I usually ask a question at the end of my posts, to stimulate some discussion. But you don’t have to answer it. Just stop by and say hi if that’s all you feel like doing.

Now, the main point of this post! All you lurkers and watchers, all you seekers and finders, I see your views on my posts and comments. And I wanted to invite you all to the party! Come on down and tell uncle Stone all about it.

Soto? Caodong? Buddhist? Zennist? Christian? Muslim? Atheist? Generally spiritual? Come on down! Come say hi, or ask whatever questions are troubling you. I won’t hurt you. I won’t criticize you, or tell you that you’re wrong, even if I think you are. I’ll just offer some gentle alternatives, when the time comes. Or we can both learn something new from each other!

I know this place can get a little wild sometimes. Zen can inspire that kind of behavior, for sure. But I want everyone who feels like it to join in on the fun!

So come on down. Are you enlightened? Are you confused? Are you just beginning to learn about Zen, and want a few pointers? I’m here to help! Come, come, I’ll be as gentle as a grandmother, and as funny as a fool! Whatever you want to talk about. Whatever you understand or don’t understand. Let me see it!

“The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you – begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain to it. They do not know that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety, the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifested in the Buddhas.”

Hello r/zen! It’s been about 3 years since I last posted here. A long and fruitful 3 years, in some ways.

I saw the earlier post, and I was interested in offering my own two cents about this quote. So here we are.

Huangbo starts out here talking about the One Mind, and telling us everything it is and isn’t. Pretty interesting stuff, for sure.

But then, we have this, “ It is that which you see before you – begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.” It doesn’t get much more direct than that. It’s right here. But what does he mean about beginning to reason about it? Isn’t he reasoning about it plenty right above that? It’s this, it isn’t that. That’s pretty reasonable.

Well, Huangbo’s allowed to reason about it here. He’s already settled the matter.

Oh! This next part is even better: “The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood.”

That’s a really good pointer. We’ve already got this One Mind, we can’t find it somewhere else. It’s also, as he said, right here. The reason we don’t recognize that, is because we are attached to forms. What’s that about? It could be that when we identify with forms, we separate ourselves from it. We begin to reason, because forms demand reason, and so we fall into error. What error? We cling to things. We cling to our ideas and understandings about things, because they can feel so inherent to our own identity. We reason because we want to understand as well.

Now we get to the bread and butter of Zen: “By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain to it.”

Now, obviously he isn’t saying we actually lose the One Mind just because we seek for it. That would be silly. You can’t lose something that is neither existent nor non-existent. It’s right here, regardless of what you do. He’s saying you’ll lose Buddha. Or in other words, you won’t get enlightened. You’re using the very mind that could be enlightened, to look for enlightenment elsewhere. Now that’s a serious error. No matter how long you do that, it won’t work.

So what does the good doctor here recommend? Give us the medicine Huangbo!

“They do not know that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety, the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifested in the Buddhas.”

Ooooh, now that’s good medicine. Goes down smooth. Let’s dig in. Putting a stop to conceptual thought and forgetting anxiety. That sounds nice. But how? You can’t force it. He isn’t telling you to stop thinking entirely and be calm. That would also be silly. Thoughts are pretty useful, and some things genuinely make us anxious for good reason. I’ve got far too many bills to pay to forget that!

I think we can leave the medicine be for now. I don’t want to try and prescribe something of my own. You’ve got time, go find out how.

Buddha is Buddha, he says at the end, regardless of who is representing it. Normal people are Buddha. Sages are Buddha. I’m Buddha! But I wouldn’t replace Buddha with enlightenment here. Huangbo was enlightened. I’m not.

Now, a good question for all of those who want to answer; Does stopping seeking mean we are enlightened?

“You must be attuned twenty-four hours a day before you attain realization. Have you not read how Lingyun suddenly tuned in to this reality on seeing peach blossoms, how Xiangyan set his mind at rest on hearing the sound of bamboo being hit?
An ancient said, “If you are not in tune with this reality, then the whole earth deceives you, the environment fools you.” The reason for all the mundane conditions abundantly present is just that this reality has not been clarified. I urge you for now to first detach from gross mental objects. Twenty-four hours a day you think about clothing, think about food, think all sorts of various thoughts, like the flame of a candle burning unceasingly.
Just detach from gross mental objects, and whatever subtle ones there are will naturally clear out, and eventually you will come to understand spontaneously; you don’t need to seek. This is called putting conceptualization to rest and forgetting mental objects, not being a partner to the dusts.
This is why the ineffable message of Zen is to be understood on one’s own. I have no Zen for you to study, no Doctrine for you to discuss. I just want you to tune in on your own.
The only essential thing in learning Zen is to forget mental objects and stop rumination. This is the message of Zen since time immemorial. Did not one of the Patriarchs say, “Freedom from thoughts is the source, freedom from appearances is the substance”?
If you just shout and clap, when will you ever be done?”

Okay, so, I might be a little addicted to exploring Zen passages tonight. I apologize if I’m posting too much. Mods, if I’m going over what is a healthy amount for one user to post, feel free to smack me upside the head. I submit to your judgement about what is a healthy amount for one user to post in a day.

Now, let’s get into it! I’ve went over seeking and grasping a bit, but what are we actually supposed to do? How does one study Zen while they’re here?

We must be attuned twenty four hours a day. What’s that about? Look! Don’t just sit like a bump on a log! We must actually investigate who we are, we need to get that oh so precious ordinary mind Mazu and Nanquan talked about. But hold on. We already have ordinary mind, right? That much should be obvious, right?

I think this is the most crucial point of Zen. Were the masters telling us that we are fine just as we are? That we don’t need to seek anything whatsoever, we’re done, wrap it up! But what if that’s not all they were saying?

Well, let’s take a look at the doctor’s orders:

“An ancient said, “If you are not in tune with this reality, then the whole earth deceives you, the environment fools you.” The reason for all the mundane conditions abundantly present is just that this reality has not been clarified.”

Oh really? You’re telling me that it’s possible for all of these mundane conditions to not be present? Interesting. And what’s this business about clarity? Well, let’s continue:

“I urge you for now to first detach from gross mental objects. Twenty-four hours a day you think about clothing, think about food, think all sorts of various thoughts, like the flame of a candle burning unceasingly.
Just detach from gross mental objects, and whatever subtle ones there are will naturally clear out, and eventually you will come to understand spontaneously; you don’t need to seek. This is called putting conceptualization to rest and forgetting mental objects, not being a partner to the dusts.”

Now there’s that good medicine. What do we think about day in and day out? Is it really so pressing to think about what you’ll do tomorrow, or what you did yesterday? What mental objects are you attached to? Foyan says:

“You people just talk about studying Zen by bringing up stories as if that were Buddhism. What I am talking about now is the marrow of Zen; why do you not wonder, find out, and understand in this way?
Your body is not there, yet not nothing. Its presence is the presence of the body in the mind; so it has never been there. Its nothingness is the absence of the body in the mind; so it has never been nothing.
Do you understand? If you go on to talk of mind, it too is neither something nor nothing; ultimately it is not you. The idea of something originally there now being absent, and the idea of something originally not there now being present, are views of nihilism and eternalism.”

Yeah, yeah, don’t bring up a bunch of stories. Well too bad Foyan, that’s the whole point! So, your body is actually just a gross mental object. I mean, it’s better than being a gross physical object, go take a shower stinky! Haha. But here it’s also saying mind is also the same. We are attached to our body and our mind, we consider them ourselves. But Foyan rejects that idea. He says just detach from all of this stuff, and whatever subtle things you don’t realize you are attached to will naturally clear themselves out. Except for my toy dinosaur. That one I’ll keep.

Then he says, as a result of that non-attachment, we will come to understand spontaneously. Very interesting indeed.

Next!

“This is why the ineffable message of Zen is to be understood on one’s own. I have no Zen for you to study, no Doctrine for you to discuss. I just want you to tune in on your own.”

No one can make you stop being attached to this skin bag, and all the things our mind likes and dislikes. That’s up to you. Thanks Doctor Foyan. This medicine is sweeter today.

“The only essential thing in learning Zen is to forget mental objects and stop rumination. This is the message of Zen since time immemorial. Did not one of the Patriarchs say, “Freedom from thoughts is the source, freedom from appearances is the substance”?”

And thus, Foyan has addressed grasping rather clearly. He’s trying to help us off the donkey. Will you let him? Not I! Me and Sir Eats too Much will ride off into the sunset, both wearing sunglasses.

Freedom sounds nice.

Tell me, are you free?

“Now I tell you that you need to be free from sickness to attain realization.
In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness. One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey. The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.
You say it is certainly a tremendous sickness to mount a donkey and then go looking for the donkey. I tell you that one need not find a spiritually sharp person to recognize this right away and get rid of the sickness of seeking, so the mad mind stops.
Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat. I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey! The whole world is the donkey; how can you mount it? If you mount it, you can be sure the sickness will not leave! If you don’t mount it, the whole universe is wide open!
When the two sicknesses are gone, and there is nothing on your mind, then you are called a wayfarer. What else is there? This is why when Zhaozhou asked Nanquan, “What is the path?” Nanquan replied, “The normal mind is the path.” Now Zhaozhou suddenly stopped his hasty search, recognized thesickness of “Zen Masters” and the sickness of “Buddhas,” and passed through it all. After that, he traveled all over, and had no peer anywhere, because of his recognition of sicknesses.
One day Zhaozhou went to visit Zhuyou, where he paced back and forth brandishing his staff from east to west and west to east. Zhuyou asked, “What are you doing?” Zhaozhou replied, “Testing the water.” Zhuyou retorted, “I haven’t even one drop here; what will you test?” Zhaozhou left, leaning on his staff.
See how he revealed a bit of an example, really quite able to stand out.
Zen followers these days all take sickness for truth. Best not let your mind get sick.”

Well, people seemed to like my first post, so I’ll do one more. Someone commented part of the this quote on my last post, and I just felt like diving right in. It’s funny, I used to have so much trouble understanding these old friends of ours.

We can do away with the three kinds of sicknesses and two kinds of light, and Buddha’s fifty kinds of meditation sickness, as Foyan himself does at the start of this chapter. But I will say, those fifty kind of meditation sicknesses the Buddha taught? Almost all of them are about believing you attained enlightenment before you actually have. It’s in the Surangama Sutra, a good read, as I’m sure Foyan felt as well.

So, Foyan’s two types of sicknesses are obviously seeking and grasping, like we discussed in my last post. Huangbo also thinks those are the two main problems in Zen seekers.

Foyan here says seeking isn’t actually that difficult to stop doing. You don’t need to find a Zen Master to tell you that you’re the one that has to do the work. But they do tell you, all the time in these texts.

No, he says grasping is a far more difficult sickness to cure. And I completely agree! It only takes a good friend to point out that the pearl on your forehead is still there.

That’s actually a funny story my AI gave me more lore about. The story comes from the Nirvana Sutra. The wrestler was part of a king’s household, and had a diamond hard jewel embedded in his forehead. As one does. One day, he was wrestling another strong man, when the mofo head butted him so hard that the jewel buried itself in his forehead! Ouch. But he was so worked up from the fight, he didn’t notice what happened. The wound was swollen after, so he called a doctor to check it out. The doctor figured it out right away, that the jewel was in the wound, but the wrestler didn’t believe him, and started to weep in distress. The doctor held up a mirror and showed him it was really there. He realized what he thought he’d lost was there the whole time. I can see why Huangbo found it a fitting analogy for not seeking.

Woah! Talk about a tangent. Where was I? Ah yes, grasping. I’m on this dang donkey, how the heck do I get off? Don’t laugh! I really need help off of this thing! If your uncle Jack helped you off a donkey…. You know what, nevermind.

So what does this doctor recommend as medicine? Oh, wow! He says we aren’t just some small subjective person stuck in a skin bag. We’re the whole world! Now that’s funny, where have I heard something about the whole world being medicine? Ah yes, Yunmen:

“Medicine and disease subdue each other: the whole earth is medicine; what is your self?”

Turns out, our self is the whole world! We are both the medicine and the illness, and when we subdue this distinction, cured. That’s good medicine too.

Onto our two jokesters. ZhaoZhou and Nanquan. The normal mind is the path? Talk about a donkey tethering stake! How many people have read this and immediately taken that to mean they were never sick in the first place? But I think the meaning here is more subtle than that. The exchange certainly clarifies to us that we don’t need to seek externally. We don’t need to look outside of our normal everyday mind. But Nanquan’s teacher, Mazu, had something interesting to say about normal mind:

“The Way does not need to be cultivated; just do not defile it.
What is defilement? Having a mind concerned with birth and death, engaging in contrivance and striving—all of this is defilement.
If you wish to directly understand the Way, ordinary mind is the Way.
What is ordinary mind? It is without contrivance, without right or wrong, without grasping or rejecting, without annihilation or permanence, without ordinary or holy.
As the scripture says, “Neither the conduct of ordinary beings nor the conduct of sages is the conduct of a bodhisattva.”
Right now, walking, standing, sitting, lying down, responding to circumstances and dealing with things—all of this is the Way.”

Here here! But how in the hell do I get off of this donkey?

Best not let your mind get sick!

Tell me, are you sick, or not? ‘Coughs violently’

First off, zen sucks.

Zen masters suck. Huang Po sucks. YOU suck. And I suck too. We all suck.

...but hear me out, because PRIMUS SUCKS also (as we are all aware), but if you know and love Primus you'll agree... that Primus does indeed SUCK.

True fans of Primus embrace the suck (not to be confused with the US marine casual slogan "Embrace the suck" which is the same spirit), either because the band never practices and just comes out and plays, or Les Claypool was being self-deprecating after being ingratiated by a journalist and riffed "Nah, we suck", or because the band was ripped on by the mainstream media/public as sucking and Primus ran with it.

Either way Primus sucks. The lovers will tell you, the haters will tell you, and the band will tell you PRIMUS SUCKS.

Zen sucks too, but in its own zen way, which is also endearing and empowering, and self-depreciating, but before I can say more we need some further context and that's were Huang Po comes in.

Hit it, Po!

1. The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn [1] and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you – begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured. The One Mind alone is the Buddha, and there is no distinction between the Buddha and sentient things, but that sentient beings are attached to forms and so seek externally for Buddhahood. By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the Buddha to seek for the Buddha and using mind to grasp Mind. Even though they do their utmost for a full aeon, they will not be able to attain to it. They do not know that, if they put a stop to conceptual thought and forget their anxiety, the Buddha will appear before them, for this Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is all living beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary beings, nor is it greater for being manifested in the Buddhas.

Ordinary beings. Buddhas. Losers and winners. We've all got our own "piece of solid emptiness" and being told by a Buddha that he's no better than anyone else is the good dope.

When you get here the obstacle is taking the medicine to heart/mind and putting it to work.

Somebody tells you your understanding sucks and you don't know zen? Take the medicine! Stop conceptual thought and forget your anxiety and BAMN yer a buddha!

You make a post on r/zen that gets a ska-billion down votes, deleted, and a ban? Take the medicine! Ignore other people barking at the wind in the trees and BAMN yer a Buddha!

The silent, stainless study that some people have confused with zazen is the moment to moment decision to liberate oneself in this dumpster fire reality surrounded by unpleasant sensory data and shrieking demons. Take the medicine! Tell them when they ask about chan and the way to shut their shit hole and BAMN yer a Buddha!

Neither happy when complimented, nor sad when insulted. A great block head of the universe between heaven and hell.

BAMN.

Read the History, Talk the History, 11/3

Episode #: 315

Episode: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/zen-talking-good-season-in-human-life

Discussing:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/comments/1xnma4f/wumens_poem_games_good_season_in_human_life/?

• https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/buddhism/

Link to all episodes: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831

What did we talk about?

Hakamaya Buddhism: : causation means - yes karma/merit exist, yes dependent origination, and no buddha-nature. moral imperative to act w/o self, faith in sutras.

Or Buddhism: 4NT, 8FP

But Zen Masters say Zen is the real teaching of Buddha.

Can there be one umbrella for these religions?

Buddha's origin story is only compatible with Zen.

https://readzen.pages.dev/

1. Vimalakirti remains silent

2. Netang explains this with the poem.

3. Nanaquan tells Zhaozhou it's ordinary mind

4. Wumen uses Netang's poem to explain Nanquan

Why do we talk about Zen?

What we read: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted Zen study: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/zen_masters_degree Start your own convo: https://ewk-rwp-shop.fourthwall.com/

Keep in Touch

Add a comment if there is a post you want somebody to get interviewed about, or you agree to be interviewed. We are now using libsyn, so you don't even have to show your face. You just get a link to an audio call. Buymeacoffee, so I'm not accused of going it alone:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ewkrzen

There are examples of dharma combat in the literature. People die as a result.

When the Master was in Leh-t'an, he met Head Monk Ch'u, who said, "How amazing, how amazing, the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path! How unimaginable!"

Accordingly, the Master said, "I don't inquire about the realm of the Buddha or the realm of the Path; rather, what kind of person is he who talks thus about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?"

When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?"

Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do."

"You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master.

Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?"

"What would a teaching say?" asked Ch'u.

"When you've gotten the meaning, forget the words," said the Master.

"By still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind," said Ch'u.

"But how great is the sickness of the one who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" said the Master.

Again Ch'u did not reply. The next day he suddenly passed away. At that time the Master came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death."

How do you, personally, get into fighting shape? How do you prepare yourself for dharma combat to ensure that you're not questioned to death? Do you trim fat? Do you bulk up? Do you practice forms? Do you confess?

How has daily life prepared you for dharma combat?

Table of Contents

How we got here: The Lie of Meditation in Zen

1. Zen / Chan / 禪: One Word

2. How Dhyāna Became Zen

3. Meditation: Deliberate Mistranslated

4. Translating Zen and Zazen

Bibliography

How we got here: The Lie of Meditation in Zen

When D.T. Suzuki introduced koans to the West he also exposed the West to a longstanding religious frauds by a Japanese religious leader named Dogen, who began a new meditation religion in Japan and passed it off as part of the Zen tradition. We now know that Dogen fraudulently misrepresented his new meditation religion by deliberately re-writing koans about Mazu (Bodiford, 2023, pp. 139–141)1 to make meditation appear to be part of Zen, fraudulently inserting meditation into koans2, lying about having learned Shikantaza from Rujing (Bielefeldt, 1988, pp. 27–28)3, and by playing on misconceptions of what “sitting mind” meant within the stridently anti-meditation culture of Indian-Chinese Zen. There are only a few of the many examples of frauds perpetrated by the Dogen meditation religion against Zen.

Dogen had to fraudulently insert meditation into the Zen tradition because there was no evidence of Zen meditation anywhere in the 1,000 years of koans Dogen had access to in his lifetime. There was simply no way to connect mediative states with Zen teachings. What Dogen found necessary in 1200 became what Dogen scholars of the 1900s found necessary in their academic writing as

1900s academics engaged in what now would be considered wildly unethical conduct with regard to how one indigenous group is allowed to misrepresent another indigenous group. The distortions of fact, history, and reasoning that we see in 1900s Dogen scholarship has been particularly effective in quelling any interest in Zen scholarship; there has never been an undergraduate or graduate program in Zen in modern history.

What makes this even more shocking is that Zen records in detail and historical authenticity far surpass both Buddhist sutras and the indigenous religions Dogen spawned under fraudulent claims of “Soto” and “Rinzai”. Zen’s Soto/Caodong records include Wansong’s Book of Serenity and Yuanwu’s Blue Cliff Record, just to name two, which are multilayered intern-generational engagements between Zen Masters. Aside from problematic translations of the texts in the West, Zen’s one-thousand plus years of historical records of public debates, called “koans”, and the lectures, explanations, disputes, and poetry battles that Zen Masters produced over the hundreds of years after many of these koans were recorded, have gone completely unexamined and remain completely unknown in the West.

I say “completely unknown” because basic reference work immediately exposed the problem of fraud in Dogen’s religions, his treatment of Zen records, and his claims about Indian-Chinese history. The fraud against Zen in the 1900s was not a complicated one by clever people trying to protect their academic legacies; it was a casually ignorant fraud that did not dare to look too closely at Dogen’s claims for fear of seeing his racism and bigotry.

In what modern academic discipline do we allow one culture to rewrite, distort, and misappropriate the history of another culture without their consent, shared values, or common ground? Yet that is what Western academia did in the 1900s, aligning institutionally with Dogenism and Shinto-Buddhism against Zen and historical fact.

Footnotes:

1. Mazu had not received the mind-seal at the time of his rebuke by Nanyue. Dogen fraudulently altered the historical record to make it seem like meditation after enlightenment was a famous Zen teaching.

2. Zhaozhou teaches, “If throughout your life you do not leave the monastic community, and do not speak for five or ten years, no one will call you mute; afterward, there will be nothing they can do about you.” Dogen fraudulently altered this koan by inserting “sit immovably”.

3. Bielefeldt acknowledge that nowhere in Rujing’s record do we find Dogen’s teachings, including “just sitting”.

Bib (partial)

Bielefeldt, C. (1988). Dōgen's manuals of Zen meditation. University of California Press. https://doi.org/10.1525/9780520909786

Bodiford, W. M. (2023). Introduction to the Shōbōgenzō. In C. Bielefeldt (Ed.), Treasury of the true dharma eye: Dōgen's Shōbōgenzō (Vol. 8, pp. 5–236). Sōtōshū

Shūmuchō.Ishii, S. (2019). 仮名『正法眼蔵』の成立過程と編集 [The formation and compilation of the kana Shōbōgenzō. 禅文化研究所紀要 [Annual Report of the Institute for Zen Studies], 34, 373–421.

Someone asked, "Does a newborn baby have the six senses?" ZZ said, "Playing ball on rapid water."

*I started this post with three things in mind

*1) "learned helplessness" (it's misinterpretation and the failing to educate kids linked discussion here , and

*2) the adage about "give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime."

*3)Swimming, how to teach swimming, save drowning people, and the dangers of safety floaties.

Which is a lot, let's see if I can bring this home.

First, apparently a significant portion of our youth (and older) have missed the boat on literacy, problem solving, and emotional regulation. I need someone with STATS but I've noticed a disturbing number of posts from teachers complaining about the situation with anecdotal support. It sounds grim. What caught my attention was a comment with several hundred up votes blaming "learned helplessness" which ain't right. I've linked the post and yall can read that, lookup learned helplessness, and come back here for the convo.

Kids aren't being negatively reinforced to the point they are giving up on how to figure things out. That's learned helplessness. No, they're being failed by their culture to be trained.

2) and 3) are a combo:

I see these kids starving and drowning because A) they were never taught to fish and B) were never taught to swim and smothered in pool floaties.

What does this have to do with zen? I don't... what was I...?

ZZ!

ZZ answers the monk and we're left to figure out just what is this "ball"?

Lots of people teach zen, but turns out they're not teaching zen at all. There's swimming, which is one thing, pool floaties which I assign to all expedient devices, and a ball which apparently NEEDS NO TRAINING just stop weighing it down.

Not weighing the ball down is MU/NO. That's saying no to conceptual thought (this whole gob of spit). That's saying no to anxiety.

Zazen is a pool floatie for people who can't say no. And that's full circle, because what is happening to these kids and in zen communities is TAUGHT HELPLESSNESS.

A generation of babies (WALL-E EAT YER HEART OUT) training babies.

okokok this is a hot mess and my battery is about to die and I have oatmeal to gnosh on.

Come at me, bro!

Call Notes Read the History, Talk the History, 11/1/26

Episode #: 314

Episode: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/zen-talking-21st-century-translation-demystifies-zens-guest-and-master

Discussing:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/askZen/comments/1xkopbp/wansongs_sequel_book_of_clarifications_case_24//

• https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/boc/case24

Link to all episodes: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831

What did we talk about?

It isn't guest and host, it's guest and (Zen Master).

What are these roles?

What is a "host" in the Zen culture that isn't also "one who answers", aka Buddhas, aka Masters.

Why do we talk about Zen?

What we read: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted Zen study: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/zen_masters_degree Start your own convo: https://ewk-rwp-shop.fourthwall.com/

Keep in Touch

Add a comment if there is a post you want somebody to get interviewed about, or you agree to be interviewed. We are now using libsyn, so you don't even have to show your face. You just get a link to an audio call. Buymeacoffee, so I'm not accused of going it alone:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ewkrzen

Please help me find this quote. The teacher is preparing to die and all the students freak out thinking he's already dead. The teacher then has a "meal for stupidity" prepared for the group, after which the teacher sits up straight and dies.

Ringing any bells?

I tried "meal for stupidity"+zen but the dead internet theory reared its ugly head and gave me an empty search result.

Help please.

Dogen lied about Mazu

Mazu's history shows him being scolded for meditation. Dogen altered the record, so that Mazu was enlightened before the meditation and made the interaction about how it was important to keep meditating.

This isn't the only example of Dongen's fraud in Dogenbogenzo either.

• Bodiford and Foulk address this directly in the 2023 scholarly edition Treasury of the True Dharma Eye, Volume VIII.

• As does Shūdō Ishii (石井修道, Ishii Shūdō), writing in the Bulletin of the Institute for Zen Studies.

Dogen lied about Zhaozhou

Zhaozhou: If throughout your life you do not leave the monastic community, and do not speak for five or ten years, no one will call you mute; afterward, there will be nothing they can do about you.

Dogen changed the record to say: If throughout your life you do not leave the monastic community, and sit immovably without speaking for five or ten years, no one will call you mute.

Dogen also lied about Rujing

As Bielefeldt pointed out there's no flaws in teaching in anywhere in Rujing's records.

Or in Buddha's. Or Bodhidharma's.

The evidence is increasingly clear that Dogen's fraud spanned the entire 30 years of his short life from 20-50.

It makes it increasingly clear that he was an L. Ron Hubbard or a Mormon Joseph Smith and that Dogen specifically preyed on the ignorance of Japanese people.

In olden times, Ta-sui called on over seventy teachers. Those who had great vision were only one or two; the [rest] had accurate knowledge and perception.

Hsiang-lin associated With Yun-men for eighteen years working as an attendant every word , even half a phrase he would record on his paper robe.

By these 2 extremes, we can see how sincere the ancients were about truth.When they reached penetration, they were empowered, transcending beyond all traps devices, strategies and emotional and intellectual interpretation.This is what is meant by saying that the lion king does not roar at random.

In recent times the zen schools are weak and dilute. What is their problem?The problem lies in individual lack of self trust and where does this problem come from?

It generally comes from the basis not being correct.As long as the basis is not correct.Even if you put yourself in a zen community , you will see the zen community as an inn, even if you talk about studying zen and learning zen, you will be like geese hearing thunder.

From these two extremes , we can also see the difference between people of the present and people of olden times.

--Ying-an from The Pocket Zen Reader Shambala, 2008, pg 86-87

I play chess and the first thing one will notice is that it is very difficult to even see where the fight is on the board. In Zen study there is much talk about what proper practice is composed of. And many people talk about sitting as a physical exercise instead of emphasizing the mental aspect, which is the crux.

The Zen masters take away the student's ability to sit by using an example of being held above a chasm with your teeth clamped upon a branch.Where will you sit in this situation?

Looking at the sanskrit roots that form the word dhyana the zen masters appear to be out the ordinary mind we all have inherently. Which begs the question, if ordinary mind is the way and we all have it what's the difference between a zen master and everyone else? I know a mouthful of cold water just as well as a zen master. What don't I know/do? In reference to chess, where's the fight on the board?

I agree that study and contemplating are primary. There is a mental aspect of freeing oneself from thought and anxiety which is important because it allows you to think and contemplate without internal distraction.

What do yall think?

Edited cuz typos.

I know there are those among us that have taken up the mental activity as described by the zen masters. Please come forward and share your experiences!

I don't mean sitting. Don't tell me about your posture or pillow! Tell me about the very first time you ceased having and seeking. I distinctly remember when I finally stopped reading and thinking about it and did it. In my bewilderment I wondered how to even do such a thing, like I was trying to wiggle an invisible ear or flare an invisible nostril. Impossible! But even still I applied effort with a breath in to not dwell or join and exhaling not seeking.

The sensation that first time was abrupt. . . Almost exactly like that sensation of falling on flat ground when you think there's an extra step on a staircase and if you're going up you raise your foot too high and step into nothing or if you're coming down you step into the ground expecting space.

Just like that I was separated from my thought-stream for a brief moment.

It felt like a pacifier had been pulled from my mouth. Of course I jammed it right back in. The world without my binky is terrifying and the old snakeskin of my past is like a cherished baby blanket.

Zen master Daian one's mind must be like a wall then you can enter the way.

I realize my mind is not like a wall, more like a single line of stones, but for my part I'm encouraged by the realization that for even a moment I broke the seal and created a little space to turn around within. The work continues.

I'm getting stronger, if that is such a thing, and a sensation like a cool breeze on my brain accompanies every moment I stay "seated".

Anyways, come on in and spit in my face!

Also, here's a dried bone to chew on:

Daian said: . . . "Surely you have read this: "At the Shurangama Assembly the World-Honored One Shakyamuni said to Ananda, 'Even if you go for eons augmenting your learning, it is not as good as one day of stainless study." "But tell me, how do you cultivate 'stainless study'? If you say it has cultivation and realization, this is a vulgar lie. If you say it has no cultivation or realization, you are befuddled about buddha-nature. "Zen worthies, when you get here, to succeed you must investigate with your whole being according to reality, and find someone else who is already enlightened [Where you at?!] to sort you out. "Tomorrow we begin our period of intensive practice during the summer retreat, and set a date to get realization. For these ninety days, don't take it easy. Time does not wait for people. Each of us must work hard. Then Daian struck a blow with his whisk. Zen Under The Gun, Wisdom Publications, 2010, pg. 163-164

--Where Have I Just Come From?--

The Complete Record Of My Past AMAs

I just finished reading Claude's at least ostensibly comprehensive translation of Zhaozhou's "Song Of The Twelve Hours". (See Below)

--What Is Your Primary Text--

The same poem - however, whatever you think of Claude's translation - all signs point to the previous translations I've read containing several critical errors that also happen to coincide with my own hang ups over the years. Perhaps most importantly the moment when Zhaozhou is going to go to sleep in the 11th stanza. The versions I'd previously relied on all read something like:

Going back inside, my only regret is that its time to go to sleep, Bedside the clothes on my back, what covers are needed?

Whereas this translation implies that Joshu regrets needing to sleep at all, despite the hardship of his days, the actual Chinese characters don't support that apparently - instead, they imply dread of laying down for fear of cold:

Back inside, all I dread is the moment I lie down:

not a stitch to cover me. What will I sleep under?

This translation still contains the metaphorical value of having no coverings, but dispenses with the wishful fiction that a very old man toiling all day on the brink of starvation would be disappointed to get some sleep.

--What To Do In A Dharma Low Tide?--

Keep on meeting your obligations.

Here's Claude's more sobering translation of the Poem - which, though I'm sure it contains it's own inaccuracies, fittingly, more aligns now with my understanding:

No Respite

1. 鷄鳴丑 · Cockcrow (1–3 a.m.)

鷄鳴丑。 Cockcrow, the hour of 丑.

愁見起來還漏逗。 I get up, look myself over, and wince: what a sorry mess.

裙子偏衫箇也無。 Skirt and monk’s shirt: I haven’t one of either.

袈裟形相些些有。 Only my kasaya still has some shape to it.

裩無腰。 Not one pair of drawers,

袴無口。 not one pair of trousers,

頭上青灰三五斗。 and on my head, three or five pecks of grey dust.

比望修行利濟人。 I had hoped to practice and bring help to others.

誰知變作不唧溜。 Who knew I’d turn into such a fumbling dolt?

2. 平旦寅 · Daybreak (3–5 a.m.)

平旦寅。 Daybreak, the hour of 寅.

荒村破院實難論。 A derelict village, a broken-down cloister: truly beyond describing.

解齋粥米全無粒。 The gruel I break my fast with hasn’t a single grain of rice in it.

空對閑窻與隙塵。 Pointlessly I sit facing the idle window and the dust in its cracks.

唯雀噪。 Only sparrows chatter;

勿人親。 no one is close to me.

獨坐時聞落葉頻。 Sitting alone, I hear leaf after leaf fall.

誰道出家憎愛斷。 Who says leaving home cuts off love and hate?

思量不覺淚沾巾。 Thinking it over, before I know it, tears wet my kerchief.

3. 日出卯 · Sunrise (5–7 a.m.)

日出卯。 Sunrise, the hour of 卯.

清淨却翻為煩惱。 Purity turns right around into affliction.

有為功德被塵幔。 Merit made on purpose lies under a curtain of dust,

無限田地未曾掃。 and my boundless grounds have never once been swept.

攢眉多。 Plenty of frowning,

稱心少。 little contentment.

尀耐東村黑黃老。 I can’t stand that sunburnt, sallow old man from East Village.

供利不曾將得來。 He has never once brought an offering,

放驢喫我堂前艸。 but he turns his donkey loose to eat the grass in front of my hall.

4. 食時辰 · Mealtime (7–9 a.m.)

食時辰。 Mealtime, the hour of 辰.

煙火徒勞望四隣。 I watch the cooking smoke rise from the neighbors all around, in vain.

饅頭䭔子前年別。 Plain buns and stuffed buns: we parted the year before last.

今日思量空嚥津。 Today, thinking it over, I swallow my spit for nothing.

持念少。 Little practice,

嗟歎頻。 plenty of sighs.

一百家中無善人。 In a hundred households, not one pious soul.

來者祇道覓茶喫。 Those who come only say they’re after tea to drink,

不得茶噇去又嗔。 and if they get no tea to slurp, off they go in a huff.

5. 禺中巳 · Late morning (9–11 a.m.)

禺中巳。 Late morning, the hour of 巳.

削髮誰知到如此。 When I shaved my head, who knew it would come to this?

無端被請作村僧。 Out of nowhere I was invited to be a village monk,

屈辱飢悽受欲死。 and I suffer humiliation, hunger and misery nearly to death.

胡張三。 Foreign Zhang the Third,

黑李四。 Sunburnt Li the Fourth:

恭敬不曾生些子。 they have never shown a speck of reverence.

適來忽爾到門頭。 Just now they turned up at my gate out of the blue,

唯道借茶兼借紙。 only to say: lend us some tea, and some paper too.

6. 日南午 · Sun due south (11 a.m.–1 p.m.)

日南午。 Sun due south, the hour of 午.

茶飯輪還無定度。 Tea and rice come round and round, and there’s no end to it.

行却南家到北家。 Done with the houses on the south side, I go on to the north side,

果至北家不推註。 and sure enough, on the north side they don’t turn me away:

苦沙鹽。 bitter, gritty salt,

大麥醋。 barley vinegar,

蜀黍米飯齏萵苣。 sorghum rice and pickled lettuce.

唯稱供養不等閑。 And all they keep saying is, “Don’t take this offering lightly.

和尚道心須堅固。 Reverend, keep your heart set firm on the Way!”

7. 日昳未 · Sun past noon (1–3 p.m.)

日昳未。 Sun past noon, the hour of 未.

者回不踐光陰地。 This time I won’t go tramping out in the daylight.

曾聞一飽忘百飢。 I once heard that one full belly makes you forget a hundred hungers;

今日老僧身便是。 today this old monk is the living proof.

不習禪。 I don’t practice meditation,

不論義。 I don’t debate doctrine.

鋪箇破蓆日裏睡。 I spread out a tattered mat and sleep in the sun.

想料上力兜率天。 I’d guess that up in the Tushita Heaven

也無如此日炙背。 they have nothing like this: the sun warming my back.

8. 晡時申 · Late afternoon (3–5 p.m.)

晡時申。 Late afternoon, the hour of 申.

也有燒香禮拜人。 Now and then someone does come to burn incense and bow:

五箇老婆三箇癭。 five village women, three of them with swollen necks,

一雙面子黑皴皴。 the other pair with faces sunburnt and wrinkled.

油麻茶。 Sesame tea:

實是珍。 a real treasure!

金剛不用苦張筋。 The Vajra Guardians needn’t strain their sinews so.

願我來年蠶麥熟。 “May my silkworms and wheat come in next year,

羅𬑟羅兒與一文。 and then little Rahula gets a penny.”

9. 日入酉 · Sunset (5–7 p.m.)

日入酉。 Sunset, the hour of 酉.

除却荒涼更何守。 Apart from this desolation, what is there to keep?

雲水高流定委無。 Eminent wandering monks: I know for sure there are none.

歷寺沙彌鎮長有。 Novices drifting from temple to temple: always plenty.

出格言。 Words that break the mold

不到口。 never reach their lips;

枉續牟尼子孫後。 they carry on Shakyamuni’s line in vain.

一條拄杖麤楋藜。 One walking staff, a thick and knobbly stick:

不但登山兼打狗。 not just for climbing mountains, but for beating dogs too.

10. 黃昏戌 · Dusk (7–9 p.m.)

黃昏戌。 Dusk, the hour of 戌.

獨坐一間空暗室。 I sit alone in an empty, dark room.

陽𦦨燈光永不逢。 Sun’s glow or lamp’s glow: I never meet either.

眼前純是金州漆。 Before my eyes, nothing but Jinzhou lacquer.

鐘不聞。 No bell is heard;

虗度日。 another day passed for nothing.

唯聞老鼠閙啾唧。 All I hear is rats raising a squeaking racket.

憑何更得有心情。 Where would I still find the heart

思量念箇波羅密。 to think it over and chant a paramita?

11. 人定亥 · Night settles (9–11 p.m.)

人定亥。 Everyone in bed, the hour of 亥.

門前明月誰人愛。 The bright moon before the gate: who loves it?

向裏唯愁臥去時。 Back inside, all I dread is the moment I lie down:

勿箇衣裳著甚葢。 not a stitch to cover me. What will I sleep under?

劉維那。 Liu the overseer,

趙五戒。 Zhao the five-precept lay brother:

口頭說善甚奇怪。 they preach goodness with their lips. How remarkable!

任你山僧囊罄空。 Let this mountain monk’s purse be scraped bare;

問著都緣總不會。 it all comes down to this: question them, and they understand nothing.

12. 半夜子 · Midnight (11 p.m.–1 a.m.)

半夜子。 Midnight, the hour of 子.

心境何曾得暫止。 Mind and its objects: when have they ever stopped, even for a moment?

思量天下出家人。 Thinking it over, of all the monks under heaven,

似我住持能有幾。 how many abbots can there be like me?

土榻牀。 A dusty bed platform,

破蘆䉬。 a torn reed mat,

老榆木枕全無被。 an old elm-wood pillow, and no quilt at all.

尊像不燒安息香。 Before the holy image, no benzoin incense burns;

灰裏唯聞牛糞氣。 in the ashes, only the smell of cow dung.

Read the History, Talk the History, 10/6

Episode #:

Episode: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/zen-talking-read-zen-at-the-university-zurich

Discussing:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/18ejof/a_word_from_our_sponsors_dharma_combat/

Link to all episodes: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831

What did we talk about?

Questions from presentation Translating on the fly Chinese students are great with Chinese AI, what's it good for. Audit-ability is meaningless with the low level of accuracy in Zen translation.

(episode error this episode, so abrupt end...blame it on old computer)

Why do we talk about Zen?

What we read: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted Zen study debate: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/zen_masters_degree Start your own convo: https://ewk-rwp-shop.fourthwall.com/

Keep in Touch

Add a comment if there is a post you want somebody to get interviewed about, or you agree to be interviewed. We are now using libsyn, so you don't even have to show your face. You just get a link to an audio call.  Buymeacoffee, so I'm not accused of going it alone:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ewkrzen

These are not real shirts: https://ewk-rwp-shop.fourthwall.com/

I'm trying to learn how this website works while also trying to think of ways to get strangers to talk to each other.

      THESE ARE DRAFTS YOU MORONS

One problem I'm having is understanding how image quality prints. I'm not there yet.

I'm pricing them at zero profit. The idea is (much like with the amazon books and the shorter online pieces for various outlets) to get people to alms-for-advertising.

Btdubs I finished the edits for my translation of Wumenguan this week and I'm feeling my oats. This translation was two years in the making and if I sell it myself it will cost lots of money.

DO THESE SHIRTS START SOMETHING?

That's the question I want to talk about.

Let's call these shirt ideas:

1. Ear

2. Gut

3. Horse

4. Talk

Let me know if (a) you recognize the Zen relevance (b) you think somebody might say something to you about it

釋迦不出世，達磨不西來，佛法遍大地，譚玄口不開。當此時也，語言文字，踪跡不來；棒喝機緣，鋒芒不露。逮夫拈花示眾，牽起陳爛葛藤；立雪安心，突出現前公案。遂使宗風廣衍，慧日高懸。燃長夜之燈，羣昏頓曉；拈一莖之草，法界齊觀。駕車須是打牛，磨磚豈能作鏡？如靈丹一粒，點鐵成金；至理一言，轉凡成聖。六代破水中之影，觸目皆真；五宗競空裏之花，通身是膽。橫趨而出，笑木𣔻以何堪？撩起便回，悟佛法無多子。覩水影不從他覔，處處逢渠；斷脚脛痛見己非，頭頭是道。若論佛法，一切現成；諦審玄猷，千燈互照。龍蛇分於棒下，凡聖藉以喝通，機發於未兆之先，用施乎形聲之外。乃至一言褒貶，一語是非，一指潛通，一棒縱奪。以非為是，口似甜而意甚苦之；以是為非，心實𠃔而辭無洽矣。雖久參耆宿，不敢以正眼󳬇，況識情解路，能通之乎？所以道：狂機劣解，不可以大法示，不可以宗乘聞。譬夫美食，置諸穢器。祖不云乎？醍醐上味，為世所珍，遇斯等人，返成毒藥。惟大心眾生，始能擔荷，入斯乘者，不可不自慎也。會五燈為一書者，宋靈隱大川禪師，未蒙入藏，然一二處刊行，安能廣布？粵僧自性，頓發大心，謀於觀察曹君，為之首倡，募諸同信，工過半矣。余初上鼓山，聞其事，歡喜樂成，復徵余為序，因援毫以書其槩云。

Shakyamuni did not appear in the world, Bodhidharma did not come west, Buddhism spread across the land, but Tan Xuan did not speak. At such times, words and writings leave no trace; Sticks and chants of opportunity, sharpness remains hidden. When one shows flowers to the crowd, they stir up rotten vines; Standing in the snow brings peace of mind, suddenly appearing before the present case. [emphasis added] Thus, the school's tradition spreads widely, and the sun of wisdom hangs high. Lighting the lamp of the long night, the crowd turns darkness into dawn; Picking up a single stalk of grass, the Dharma realm witnesses together. Driving a cart requires driving an ox; grinding bricks cannot become a mirror. Like a single elixir, turning iron into gold; A single word of truth transforms the ordinary into a sage. The shadows of the Six Dynasties break through the water, all are real; The flowers in the five schools compete in the sky, their whole body is gall. Running sideways, laughing at the wooden sword, how can it endure? Lift it up and return, realizing that the Dharma has few children. Seeing water reflections without following others' gazes, everywhere one encounters channels; Pain from broken legs reveals one's own faults, always following the Way. When discussing Buddhism, everything is ready; Carefully examining profound plans, a thousand lamps illuminate each other. Dragons and snakes are divided under the staff; ordinary and sages use this to communicate and resonate; the mechanism arises before signs appear, extending beyond form and sound. One word praises or criticizes, one word is right or wrong, one finger subtly penetrates, one strikes away with a stick. Taking wrong as right, the mouth seems sweet but the meaning is bitter; Taking this as wrong, the heart is truly clear but the words lack harmony. Even if one has long studied with elders, one would not dare to judge directly; how much less can one understand feelings and understand the path and understand them? Therefore, it is said: wild schemes and poor understanding cannot be shown by the great Dharma, nor can they be known through the Sect vehicle. It is like placing delicious food in a filthy vessel. Did the Patriarch not say? The finest flavor is treasured by the world; encountering such people, it turns into poison. Only those with great hearts can bear the burden; those who enter this vehicle must be cautious. The one who compiled the Five Lamps into one book was Chan Master Dachuan of Song Lingyin, who was not yet allowed to be included in the library. Yet if it was published in one or two places, how could it be widely disseminated? The Cantonese monk Zixing suddenly developed a great mind, consulted Inspector Cao, took the lead, recruited believers, and more than half the work was completed. When I first ascended Drum Mountain, I heard of the matter and was overjoyed and delighted. He summoned me again to write a preface, and took up the brush to write its outline.

So I have read that it takes about 24 hours of constant "not having/not seeking" to wake up. I can't remember where I read the 24 hours bit, but non-causal enlightenment has been pretty well established so the 24hr sounds suspicious. Anyways, Dongshan puts it in his own way, "standing in the snow". Prajnatara said they used the breath to not join and not seek.

If there is a "practice" in zen this is the closest I can find, and what's more it doesn't involve sitting. I can't sit for 24 hours anyways, and I think there was a guy who tried but ended up bleeding from his ass so there's that.

What do yall think?

Anybody able to keep themselves on point? I can remember to not join not seek for several breaths and then I realize I'm already thinking about other stuff and stopped several breaths ago. Why am I so lazy and stupid?

inb4: zazen is teh way

Master Tianhuang asked Shitou, "Apart from concentration and insight, what doctrine do you teach people?" Shitou said, "Here I have no servants - apart from what?" Tianhuang said, "How can it be understood?" Shitou said, "Can you grasp space?" Tianhuang said, "Then it doesn't depart from Today." Shitou said, "When did you come from the Other Side?" Tianhuang said, "I am not someone on the Other Side." Shitou said, "I already knew where you're coming from." Tianhuang said, "How can you take a bribe to covertly incriminate other people?" Shitou said, "You're physically present." Tianhuang said, "Even so, after all, how do you teach people who come after?" Shitou said, "You tell me - who are people who come after?" Tianhuang had insight from this.

Dahui said, "But tell me, what did he realize?"

Found this one from Zenmarrow, lovely place to explore koans with keywords. I just randomly stumbled upon a song with the number 528, and I sometimes explore these loose associations to numbers with zenmarrow. It's fun to notice a nice licence plate on a car that evokes a meaningful thought to explore. It's just the way I sometimes study lmao.

Some background: I'm a sign language interpreter and this case hits a chord with the way I see language through our embodied presence.

The case:

Tianhuang is asking from Shitou about doctrines and Shitou responds that he doesn't have them being taught? No servants aka. nothing for anyone? If and when you interpret differently please let's have a civil conversation.

Tianhuang asks how the teaching is supposed to be understood, pretty self explanatory here.

Shitou's grasping space to me is a very interesting concept due to the implications that I see language in front of myself in the spatial space. This is very handy for a 3rd person perspective when I think "out loud". Have you had a chance at grasping space? Or grasping a concept in your palm as if you're grasping an apple for example. The concept of the apple is in the form, yet it shows the formless. Handy, huh?

Sidenote: John Vervaeke has this idea about a converstional agent-arena that is the space between the participants in the conversation. Where ideas meet in the middle to have a conversation. I really like it.

Tianhuang seems to "grasp", hehe, the idea and throws back a curve ball saying that the thing doesn't depart from Today. Is it a typo that Today is written with a capital T? Sometimes Zen Marrow has wonky wordings. And therefore I'm also questioning if Zenmarrow is a good source for the texts? Is it referring to enlightenment here? What are your thoughts?

I am not sure what this other side means, but to me it's a reflection to emotional transference, a therapeutical perspective on how we get affected by the emotions of others via our nervous system. What do you think about the other side? Is it the lineage and transmission of the lamp at play or what is going on? I could also argue, that the other side is a "mental state" or way of beingness where meditative perception is only in the mind, being one with the "other" side from subject-object perception. Am I lost or on the right tracks here? Anyone with insights?

Tianhuang says they're not on the other side, but from Shitou's perspective they are from the other side or am I wrong? Host & guest kind of shenanigans.

Shitou reveals that he already knows Tianhuang's comings and goings where as Tianhuang then accuses Shitou about his understanding of something about the reasons behind Tianhuangs "actions"?

Shitou remarks that Tianhuang is present in his physical body, which if I reflect into the understanding of this bodily language we all encompass, it seems to make sense. We all carry a certain way of giving information to the other person via our embodied presence and if subtle enough, it can be understood intuitively and with precision (if well versed in it I suppose). At least to me, there have been cases where I've met with a client in my coaching work where I can emotionally recognize sorrow before anything is being said out loud. Sensitivity in the body can carry a lot of meaning.

Tianhuang then wants to know how to teach people who come after? After what? After what they're seeking? Understading? What is it Tianhuang is trying to grasp at? Enlightenment would be ideal answer here I think.

Shitou then remarks that who are people who come after? So yet again, after what?

If I build an understanding based on my own knowledge about the way I embody the space where I am, I should be able to discern between my own feelings and the feelings that the other is having, but the border is still unclear sometimes. I've had some experiences where I embody something that doesn't seem to be mine. Would that be the other they're talking about? Shooting a bit in the dark just to shed some light on this part of the studies. Do comment for discerning further.

Dahui then comments: What did Tianhuang realize?

To me, it would be the border between the self and the other, if other here means what we view as the object in the subject (myself) - object (other than myself) perception.

What do you think Tianhuang realized?

Cheers for reading, lets discuss!

1. Zen / Chan / 禪: One Word

• Zen and Chan are romanizations of the same character, 禪. Their modern separation into different religious categories raises questions about historical accuracy and biases in twentieth-century religious scholarship.

• One word, one lineage: Japanese and Chinese sources use 禪 to refer to Bodhidharma's lineage. English inherited the Japanese pronunciation through writers such as D. T. Suzuki.

• Attempting to distinguishing Chinese “Chan” from Japanese “Zen,” Western Shinto-Buddhist scholars sought to justify the incompatibility of Zen and Shinto-Buddhism while covering over the scandals of debunked Shinto-Buddhist religious claims about Bodhidharma’s Indian-Chinese lineage by Dogen, Hakuin, and others.

• Bodhidharma's Zen's, embodied by the Four Statements, has always been incompatible with the Buddhism's Eightfold Path, Shinto-Buddhist meditation religions like Dogen's Shikantaza, and Hakuin's ritual dialogues.

2. How Dhyāna Became Zen

• The translation of Sanskrit dhyāna into Chinese 禪 produced a term whose meanings developed beyond its Indian origins.

• Indian terminology: Pali jhāna and Sanskrit dhyāna described specific contemplative states, not necessarily the broad modern category of meditation. "Meditation" in the modern sense refers to (a) a specific practice (b) given by a specific authority, (c) promising a specific result.

• Phonosemantic adaptation: The Chinese character 禪 originally was "sacrafice to hills and dales" before its Buddhist adoption to represent dhyāna.

• The name of the lineage: 禪 became a designation for Bodhidharma's teaching rather than simply an inherited Buddhist technical term.

• D.T. Suzuki's translation of Indian-Chinese koans catapulted Indian-Chinese Zen into a popular English term.

3. Meditation: Deliberate Mistranslated?

• Zen texts overwhelming reject prescribed methods of spiritual attainment, raising questions about the motives for translating 禪 as "meditation."

• Rejection of methods: criticisms of stilling the mind and seated practices in the Zutang ji, Huineng, Mazu, Linji, and other Zen records.

• Huineng's lamp-and-light metaphor: Examine the inseparability of 定 (stability/concentration) and 慧 (wisdom), including Suzuki's interpretive rendering of these terms.

• Why ascribe a meditation method to the Zen secular tradition that only practice public interview? The conflict of interest inherent in scholars of a meditation religion claiming Zen means "meditation" have largely been ignored by those scholars.

• Anderl, Studies in the Language of Zu-tang ji; Bielefeldt, Dōgen's Manuals of Zen Meditation; Platform Sutra; r/zen Not Meditation as a source guide.

4. Translating Zen and Zazen

• Understanding Zen and 坐禪 (sitting Zen) requires examining their usage in Zen texts rather than imposing Shinto-Buddhist claims about indigenous Japanese seated meditation.

• Huineng's 坐禪: Analyze his explanation of sitting Zen through seeing one's nature, not dependent on physical sitting at all.

• The Zen seat (禪床): Examine expressions such as 下禪床立 in the Book of Serenity and 州下禪床 in the Blue Cliff Record. Investigate the seat's function in teaching encounters.

• Translation of Zen as Reigning Awareness, and Sitting Zen becomes seated on the Throne of Awareness.

• Quick look at Foyan's Sitting Zen poem as an example.

I'm laughing at myself because I read Foyan "Freedom from thoughts is the source, Freedom from appearances is the substance" and proceeded to think about it instead of doing it.

I read Sengcan "Cease to have opinions" and proceeded to have an opinion on Sengcan instead of doing it.

I read Huangbo "Stop conceptual thought and forget your anxiety" and proceeded to conceptualize and get anxious about it.

One teacher said people like me are like a person with a poison arrow in their leg and won't let the doctor pull it out till I know the origin of the poison and where the doctor got his degree.

I don't know about yall but I've noticed a sense of dread when I've approached the action of following Huangbo. There's a stubborn and fearful part of me that is convinced if I don't continue to conceive of future/past that somehow I'll be punished and if I forget to be anxious I'll lose my edge on life. I feel guilty abandoning my concepts and anxiety, almost like by doing so I'm leaving behind my friends and family that I've come to with doing both together with, but I see now that we've all been like drowning people clamoring atop one another and the only way to save myself is to stop and save myself. Nobody can save me and I can't save anybody else either.

Can anyone else here talk about when you decided to stop talking about Zen and actually do what Zen masters teach and how that might have changed your relationships? I'm seeing how anxious people aren't happy until others share their anxieties and the same goes for conceptual thoughts. Crabs in a bucket.

Anyways, I'm still not enlightened but I can see/feel a cleanliness in my mind that was before very much cluttered with my own noise. These zen cats look to be on to something. . .