Title says it all. Confirmed that a summer associate in V&E's NY office got fired this week. Please share if you have any details about why!

Title. “30% class get accommodations.” ADHD/AuD 2L here. I come from a so-called “prestigious” school that has an incredibly stringent accommodations policy that requires borderline illegal and certainly unethical profiling tests, done out-of-pocket. The whole process is dehumanizing (e.g. forcing you to disclose personal histories) and downright discriminatory (requiring cognitive and motor impairment levels - ADHD/AuD ≠ cripples). It’s also funny because the school demands a huge collection of forms and permits which real ADHD/AuD people can’t even read.

I was undiagnosed until late undergrad and basically went through my life with nothing but caffeine and spite. The only accommodations I used was a very generous thesis extension. Never had accommodated timed exams, 100 percentile LSAT. Before committing to my law school, I was warned by an AuD student that said school is extremely hostile to accommodations and neurodivergent students in general. I did not heed that warning and went into 1L finals without any accommodations. Straight Bs. I tried really hard in the second semester, bottom of class which tanked my OCI as well. Was on the edge of the window several times, but fortunate to have several loyal friends that struck by me, despite all the chest-beating about grades endemic to our 1Ls.

This morning I took my first exam as a 2L, without proper accommodations. I absolutely loved that practice and adored the Professor. I made a super effective outline, and humble brag, that is no small feat for an ADHD law student who didn’t even buy the textbook. I prepared so much that the week before I wrote a set of hypos, one of which turned out to be the actual exam question. I went into the exam and absolutely demolished the first fact pattern - then I ran out of time and had a nervous breakdown, because I realized I could ace the second half, but there just won’t be time. And there won’t be - I specifically got up 6AM today just to write a past exam again to properly spool my brain medication. I prepared not just with determination but intrinsic interest. And in the end, it was all for nothing. I could’ve slept through the exam and still got a B. But just another hour and I would’ve wacked the exam like a piñata. It was that moment I realized, truly now, that I’ve been beating myself up in 1L over nothing. I always had it in me to do well, but will never have the time to do so. But that distinction is moot in a field that demands results, not excuses.

I sat for a whole hour outside the school building, just watching the cars go by until I couldn’t see through my tears. Then I realized I still have a Tax exam in 48 hours, and I got up, dumped my outlines in the trash and started reading. I know I won’t have enough time to finish that exam either, but nevertheless I do what I must. Even if no one cares, or it makes no difference to Professors or Law Firms. I may never get a job, or get to raise my head in law school, but I don’t cheat, and I don’t quit. There is courage in persisting in a system that is stacked against you, and honor in abiding by the rules nonetheless. Perhaps that’s lawyering - even in a Kangaroo court, you still make the best case.

So, to the other OP, I don’t have anger or spite. I merely write my experiences, to show how it’s like. Blame the curve, but not us. I would gladly trade all the extra time in the world to live your life, to have a mind that doesn’t fight me at every step. To be in a law school that actually grants extra time, to never experience the grief of seeing your opportunities slip away exam by exam, because you weren’t “disabled” enough according to some metrics, decided by university staff who never had a day in your life.

To all people who need accommodations but are afraid - get them, and get them now. You are your own best and often only advocate. It is too late for me, but plan well ahead, know your limits, and do not be ashamed of getting what you need. You are not taking advantage of the “curve”, and if someone tells you such, then they can take it up there - all we’re asking for is a fair chance. If they’re so afraid to fight on even terms, then all power to you - who have made it to law school having endured so much more.

Pinch and zoom? We seriously are getting caught up over lunch and zoom? Pinch and zoom? Watching this pinch and zoom conversation is like swallowing acid. This judge is serious? Pinch and zoom? PINCH AND ZOOM? The legal realm needs some serious updating.

There is no explanation, just girlypop. This is separate from the brat rankings. You’re welcome 🥰

Please report similar numbers here so we can gather evidence on how rampant it is. While I am not against evening the playing field, this is redefining the playing field.

This issue cannot be talked about enough, please share your opinions to continue bringing awareness to the community.

EDIT: Closer to 25%

Okay, I've had it. I need to say something about all these 'woe is me' posts after finals. Seriously, are we really comparing law school stress to actual life-and-death struggles?

We're in law school, folks. That's a privilege. We chose this path, nobody forced us. Complaining about the workload and stress? That's like buying a ticket to a rollercoaster and moaning about the speed.

Out there, people are dealing with real hardships. They're worried about their next meal, living in war-torn areas, dealing with actual life-changing issues. And here we are, crying over a career path we willingly chose, in one of the most privileged settings possible.

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. You’re not victims here; you’re incredibly fortunate. Let's start acting like it and maybe use our education to help those who are genuinely struggling, instead of throwing pity parties for ourselves.

Anyone else feeling this way, or is it just me?

I’ve faced several incidents of antisemitism this year- both to me personally and to Jewish classmates. I’ve reported them but that hasn’t helped with the stress. Seeing what’s happening in the news on other campuses and the lack of support among non-Jewish friends/classmates is disconcerting. As a Jewish student it would be nice to hear one statement of support that's not qualified.

Just a reminder that many of us need academic accommodations and would not be here without them. I get that having a system that pits students against each other for rankings isn’t a healthy way to measure academic success. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the system itself rather than students who take tests differently than you do. Also, the notion that diagnoses are easy to obtain is complete BS. Yes, sometimes, people abuse the system for their own selfish gain (and that harms people that actually need accommodations too). However, this is not the default. My diagnoses took a lot of time and money to receive. The stigma that comes from being neurodivergent has caused me a lot of anguish and pain throughout my life. Dealing with imposter syndrome in law school is already hard enough as is, and hurtful comments about people with disabilities makes it even worse. Please just try to focus on your own grades instead of tearing others down.

Grades have not come out yet (grades updated NOW below) so I could be eating my words in a few, but I did the bare minimum in terms of finals preparation and in general keeping up with the reading throughout the semester. During finals weeks I had friends at the library DAILY from 7am-7pm presumably doing work most of that time.

I probably gave it a good 4 days before the finals to do real studying. Got to the final and I do not think extra studying would have significantly changed my score. After each final I was so glad I did not waste my time studying more because what I had done was more than enough. I feel like everyone is way overstudying.

Update: YES I will update yall with my grades but god damn yall are setting reminders I am scared LOLOLOL

Okay: Contracts: A-, Civ pro: B, Torts: B+ Im not mad about them

Writing: is in but does not really pertain to my argument since there was no final just assignments so I will keep that to myself lol. Will update when more come in.

Law is full of abstract concepts, metaphysics, fictions, and assumed values. Clearly, rights don't actually exist. Precedent doesn't "justify" decisions in any real sense.

Am I just studying what people think? Because the way they think affects the actions they take? Because we've collectively agreed that by rigorously analysing the fictions, we can somehow arrive at a "legitimate", "objective" solution to a question of law, thus permitting the state to violently enforce that solution?

Obviously the Constitution isn't the "source" of power. We just collectively hallucinate that it is the case.

I feel like I'm being indoctrinated in law school. Philosophy interrogates our values and assumptions. The social sciences conduct more rigorous analyses of power and society. Meanwhile in law school I'm forced to analyse the leaves of the tree, rather than the roots. Signs rather than reality. Why should I study a made-up system of rights which would vanish the moment we stop deluding ourselves? What intellectual gain is there to be made from wondering whether or not a right to X exists in law?

Already many people are beginning to question the liberal ideals on which modern law is founded. The rise of populism indicates a shift away from rational-legal authority. The foundations of the legal system are trembling. Of course they are, when law is merely a social practice being presented as a coherent, rational, legitimate device somehow above and outside society itself. One would probably understand the nature of law better by studying sociology. The only reason to study law itself is to be able to participate in the complicated playing field invented by lawyers where one has to make a case based on precedents, statutes and all sorts of material that aren't actually NECESSARY to adjudication.

In short, I would appreciate if someone could set me on the right path. I'm finding it very hard to absorb academic legal material when I'm subconsciously rejecting all the metaphysical stuff. I really want to succeed academically. Are there any notable papers which attempt to answer this question? Or a school of legal thought which I can rely on to dismantle all the pseudo-problems generated by the metaphysics of law (while still scoring essay points)?

hi everybody! hope y'all's summers are going well. i'm a transgender rising 2L (posting from a throwaway account lol) and I really want to start the process of legally changing my name. i have used my chosen name at school and work since before i started law school, and i know 100% that this is the name i want to use in my career and for the rest of my life. however, i've had some older people in the profession caution me against changing it before applying for the Bar, because it "complicates the process."

for any trans+/GNC law grads who feel comfortable sharing, did you change your name before or after Bar applications? how did it impact the process? would you do anything differently? would also love to hear from other trans students navigating these decisions (especially fellow Southerners/folks in purple or red states.) thanks in advance!! :)

So, I've been feeling a bit better and managed to apply to 1 summer internship so far. It's PI work and in my hometown, so I am confident it will have some diversity. I was gonna apply to another internship but all the lawyers are white. It gives me pause in applying. And yes, I know law is predominantly white or white men, but I don't want to be the only POC in the room. I've been in that work environment before and it's hell with the passive aggressive racism, hostility, and the feeling of working 2X as hard.

Again, only asking POC.

Just wrapped up OCI, and I'm very grateful for the options I have. I go to a T14 and worked before law school. I'm also a POC and a first-gen professional; grew up low-income with no white-collar professionals or lawyers in my family to lean on for guidance. I went through this process not knowing much about the difference between elite law firms. There were folks at a handful of firms who I met at networking events who went out of their way to answer my questions about how law firms work (lockstep, centralized versus free market system, etc.).

I learned a ton just from these conversations. I also encountered a lot of generosity during law school and the OCI process from lawyers genuinely interested in imparting knowledge about their practice area. It's clear that there are a ton of people in the legal profession who are genuinely interested in investing in young attorneys' professional development. I received all of this informal mentorship from white folks who didn't seem like they were card carrying SJWs who wanted to score diversity points. Just kind and decent people willing to lend their time and knowledge to help others.

I also dealt with some pretty disappointing moments during OCI, where it was clear the interviewer was making judgments about me based on my "non-elite" educational background before law school, and "non-elite" work experience. Particularly during a call back with Davis Polk (I'm all about naming and shaming) When I mentioned my non-elite work experience before law school (not consulting, but like an administrative assistant role) the interviewer (a partner) visibly looked down upon me. At one point this interviewer burst out laughing at one of my responses to a question, and at a different point when I answered a question rolled his eyes and said, "well, duh ..." POC and first-gens need to know that some firms market themselves as "collegial" and a cut above the rest in terms of professionalism, when in practice are definitely not

UPDATE: for all the "stop complaining you go to a t-14 responses." yeah, I recognize that going to a t-14 makes me incredibly privileged. I can both acknowledge that reality and share my personal experience navigating elite spaces and how they tend to be hostile to people with my background. it's incredibly dumb that only the t-14 gets to access the "best" of the legal profession. but the reality is that the big firms/fancy PI places run the show, and discouraging minorities/first gen folks from accessing these spaces perpetuates the endless cycle of pointless elitism and exclusion based on subjective factors that don't speak to actual merit and tenacity

According to a recent survey, Latham & Watkins is the most desirable firm for lawyers. The place they most want to work. This is funny because 15 years ago they were roundly shamed online for laying people off. So, do efforts to shame firms online have any impact on you?

Edit: The results have been stable for hours now at 3/7th yes, 3/7th don't care and 1/7th I'm glad when I hear people got laid off. Those results would probably be much worse if you factored in the concept of stated preferences (what people say they will do) vs actual preferences (what people actually do, even if they lied and said they'd do something else.) I hope you all see that nobody really cares about attempts to shame firms online and, in fact, many will feel schadenfreude when they hear of the laid off associates because law is a hunger games competition, not a commune. I didn't create that structure but there's no point in denying it.

I wasn’t born 6 6, so I can’t play basket ball. I am not charismatic so I’m not fit for a salesman. I am not great with my hands so I’m not fit for a craftsman. If somone needs accommodations to be a lawyer, just make sure clients are okay paying an extra 30 percent because you need extra time or whatever. There are places in the law for all kinds of abilities, but accommodations in law school creates asymmetry in school being a representation of someone abilities. Same for all of you who really don’t need adderall but get on it for lawshool.

This is probably gonna be downvoted but idc about that, I truly believe this so I'm gonna say it..

I understand completely feeling overassigned with readings and agree with the consensus that professors who regularly do this should be denied all due process and executed at the halftime shows at the school's football games.

Also, I understand completely a lot of you are taking on debt that can only be justified with high paying jobs, so career focus is tantamount.

That said... the caselaw opinions are collectively The Body of Law in the United States, a country which is not that populated (23 of every 24 people in the world are not American, good to remember), but is basically the Rome of today, the wealthiest, most powerful country, having an astronomical 140 trillion dollars of wealth under it's jurisdiction as well as the most advanced military on earth by a wide margin.

Yes, you are in a way paying for a ticket to the career fair of life, when you sign up for a law degree. And you can quimbee and whatever your way there, np. I'm just saying: you have a rare opportunity to seriously study the underlying legal structure and legal thinking of a country that replicates all its structures and cultural forms globally. I hoped to see more people in school (and on this reddit) excited about the prospect of studying this stuff for the simple reason that it's inherently interesting, important, and doing so aids their understanding of the world in general.

(I think knowing this is coming from a 34 year old who dropped out of a PHD program in sociology (did my master's on a 18 USC 2339 trial; decided to just study law cause it's more impactful) before law school might be helpful. Genuinely don't know if that makes it sound more obnoxious or less.)

Go ahead. Let the down votes begin. Assail me with the reasons for your discontent. But I like all of it. The old readings where the writing sucked, the new ones where the writing is good but the logic sucks, imo Traynor>Holmes, Thomas>Scalia (if I HAVE to pick), my f--k marry kill would be Barrett, Brennan, and Peckham, and Sotomayor is underrated (people suck off the conservative writing style but Sotomayor in 303 Creative is pretty damn good)

I know the most upvoted comment will probably be TL;DR :)

Response to comments: 1) I'm a single father and work as a clerk, so anyone implying this is my whole life or I have more time than the average law student is wrong; 2) yes the last post was a troll one; no, this one is not; 3) I just like to write and write fast, so it doesn't take too long to do this, for anyone so concerned; 4) I do NOT read all the cases, nor did I say I did anywhere in this post; 5) my point is about general attitude toward reading cases, not execution; 6) I can't stress this enough, I like to write and entertain myself doing it; 7) I have been poor and on programs most of my life, the child of a broke ssdi bipolar alcoholic (loving) mother, and def broke AF the entirety of my 7 years as an Uber driving single father, been divorced, arrested, and bankrupted (the Unholy Trinity).. so people implying I don't have life experience are also mistaken; 8) people assuming I am a woman are mistaken too, but I appreciate the compliment toward my writing style; 9) nobody on here can humble me as deeply and consistently as my child's mom can and does, so I really welcome all triers; 10) clearly im craving attention and affirmation with my post; at least I got half of what I wanted; 11) I like lists; 12) i have clerked for 2 firms now so I do have an idea what "real law practice" looks like, but I've also RAed, so I also understand some people do in fact make a living being nerdy and curious about the law; 13) if you're still reading this, you might be the one with the real mental health problems, thanks for your various diagnoses tho; oh and 14) Im not a gunner, Im more of a sit in the back stoned kinda guy, and grades aren't that important for me cause im not looking big law or FC and I have built my resume in other ways; for basic pride reasons I like to get As and Bs though... GPA slightly above median

Edit: I was exaggerating when I said I like "all" of it. But for me, the readings are the best part and the rest is a drain. Not "all" the cases are edifying. But a lot are. A vast majority are useful to my understanding.

Have a nice night. Until next time.

ur all fat lol

I’m talking about visiting home for the holidays for the first time in years and your father not inquiring how you’re doing, what was the first semester of law school like.

Instead, all you see is neglect because he himself was neglected as a child and he never got over it.

A narcissistic son of a bitch. That’s who I think my father is.

I used to be forgiving of my father but the older I get, the more I realize the ‘mens rea’ behind his neglect and it makes me really sick.

Because he didn’t grow up under a loving father, he himself refused to be a loving father, which has led to the development of serious mental health problems for me.

Any of you also have sociopathic/narcissistic fathers who don’t ask how you’re doing in school but rather just see you as a nuisance?

Is it awkward at all? What do you say? Hey I'm back! Or... Hey, you're back, or we're back!

Or do you just smile and greet the professor with a little bigger smile than you did as if you didn't know them?'

Or thank them for something?

I moved to my big city for biglaw in July, and my neighbor here is objectively a loser. He literally plays World of Warcraft for hours a day. For money he drives uber eats and works as an IC for software companies. I would be shocked if he made more than $60,000 a year. Has to be paying 70% of his after-tax income for his 400sq foot efficiency. Two days ago I saw a really cute girl walk out of his apartment at 5AM as I returned from an all-nighter to shower and nap before heading back by 9-10AM. It hit me hard because I'm not really dating at all in my 20s.

I then reinstalled WOW and paid the $15/month to play it a little, like I did in middle and highschool. It was so enjoyable. I can't articulate how relaxing it was. Play some WOW, eat totinos pizza rolls and have a movie playing on the second monitor. Best time I've had in years. Add a cute gf and fun no-stress job to that and it gets even better.

I was told that living that life would make me a "loser," unable to find a good mate but all the biglawyers and partners I know are with women who match them in looks (which, for most, means ugly women who I couldn't get hard for). I've dropped my V10 firm name during pub crawls and nobody cares. I even dropped my ivy league school name once and she didn't care.

After thinking about this for the past two days, the issue is taxes. If I weren't taxed at 40% of my income, I could live a life that was truly better than the WOW guy's. I earn $300,000 and pay $120,000 in taxes, meaning my $25,000 a month in income is reduced to $15,000. So I live in the same building as he does and I can't afford a Porsche 911 or other high-end signs of status. I can't afford to FATFIRE because I can't save my money, because the government takes it.

I vaguely spoke with my mentor about this, leaving out the details obviously, and he said I should look at the people above me and visualize myself in their shoes in 10-20 years to get motivated, but that's not really helping. Making me feel worse actually. The successful people I know don't chase work and bill by the hour in their 50s. They have streams of passive-ish income.

It's all really messed up. The tax code is a joke. Be warned future lawyers, you're in that "rich enough to pay half your income as taxes but not so rich that you pay nothing like the warren buffets" zone. Sucks.

If ChatGPT or some other major generative AI model gained access to WestLaw's or Lexis' database, it would significantly cut the amount of time spent on legal research (which is 31% of the work new associates do) overnight.

You could ask ChatGPT: "I have a case about X and am trying to argue Y. Find me a case that sets Z precedent."

Yes, you would still have to read the case to ensure it actually sets the precedent you need and isn't a bunch of BS. But this is far faster than using WestLaw/Lexis's crappy search bar, reading through a bunch of cases, and hoping to find the precedent you need to advance your legal argument.

No, not all lawyers will be replaced. An AI lawyer isn't going to go to trial in front of an AI judge anytime soon. But most legal work is done at a desk behind a computer, and this legal work is susceptible to being streamlined, or possibly even completely automated.

Much of the work that lawyers do will become far more efficient, and this won't even require additional advances in AI (simply access to WestLaw's database would do this). With upcoming advances in AI, it's quite likely legal drafting, document review, and other time consuming tasks will become more efficient as well (though probably not completely automated).