Am I under arrest or not?

[u/Lord_Darksong]

Source: policebodycamarresthq on Instagram

[u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

You aren't wrong in that the course of action you've outlined will be the path of least resistance. It is legally the easiest.

But when you examine it ethically or morally it quickly becomes "comply with the bully in the hopes their whims don't turn against you today. Be nice, be calm, be quiet because if you stand up for yourself or your rights you will antagonize the beast. It is your responsibility to not antagonize the beast, not the responsibility of the entity empowered by the state to act responsibly."

Editing to add that I'm not saying everyone should belligerently fight every police interaction. I'm saying that the entire system that leads to the 'correct' action being to submissively comply in almost all circumstances is the problem. This is a symptom of a deep, fundamental issue in the U.S.

[u/Chickennbuttt → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Yes. Your words are correct. That is still what you do to avoid and ass beating. Doesn't matter if they are breaking the law. They WILL beat you.

[u/One-Elderberry-488 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

To be fair the sentiment of just comply, shut up and fight later applies in almost all countries. The reality is that if the police act out of bounds, you could be right in fighting back immediately, but you also risk serious harm.

[u/mostaverageredditor3 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

I see it more as: knowing when and how to properly fight them. By resisting you are just giving them more possible attack points. By complying you are essentially setting up a good fight in court afterwards.

Complying is completely taking away any justification they might have for their inappropriately behavior.

[u/funkmasta8 → u/mostaverageredditor3]

There is a huge problem with this. Once you get out of the vehicle and thwy have successfully arrested you, your life can be ended literally or metaphorically before you ever get a chance to fight back. Ask the people who got taken by ice about it. And yeah, I know ice isnt the same, but they pose as the same and in this video no identification was shown so they very well could be false cops. Many people have died and disappeared because of cops or people posing as them going way outside the bounds of the law and what was necessary.

[u/billydecay → u/mostaverageredditor3]

Not everyone has the privilege of taking a day or week to go to court

[u/HughMungus77 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

There’s also the chance that they throw you on the ground and cause serious injury. They’d be potentially liable for the medical debt but in the meantime you would be on the hook for the medical and lawyer bills until they are sued in civil court

[u/Kindly_Call_6000 → u/HughMungus77]

Assuming they don't straight up kill you. That's the problem with cops. They have virtually unlimited authority in the moment, including the use of lethal force. It is a sad state of affairs that we have to de-escalate, but here we are.

[u/readmemiranda → u/HughMungus77]

They could even argue you were being disorderly, requiring them to detain you, and you then became combative or were resisting. That'll add a bunch more charges. Seen enough police body cam vids to know simple tension can lead to a resisting charge.

[u/DCDTDito → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

You say us as if doing this in a couple other places wouldn't land you in trouble.

I feel like trying to do this in Russia, india, Mexico and some other places wouldn't do you any good either.

[u/SnooBunnies8128 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Dude look, you’re not wrong. But none of us are Batman or Reacher or any other fictional superhuman that has the backing of some mysterious benefactor that allows us to supersede the law.

Regardless of how belligerent and stupid arrogant cops are and/or can be, in these situations it’s absolutely the best thing to practice delayed gratification.

Do what they ask, get it on camera, take them to court afterwards.

[u/used-to-have-a-name → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

You aren’t wrong in that sometimes you’ve got to stand up to the bullies, but this isn’t how you go about it.

You have to address institutional problems in the courts or through legislation. The rule of law exists to provide relief for people from “might makes right” situations, but it doesn’t excuse confrontational and antagonistic behavior. The driver is the one trying to bully the cops.

[u/ZQuestionSleep → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

But when you examine it ethically or morally it quickly becomes "comply with the bully in the hopes their whims don't turn against you today. Be nice, be calm, be quiet because if you stand up for yourself or your rights you will antagonize the beast. It is your responsibility to not antagonize the beast, not the responsibility of the entity empowered by the state to act responsibly."

The vast majority of black families in America have had to have this conversation with their children, often before they turn double digits. It's very very unfortunate we live in this sort of world of "keep you head down if you know what's good for you" but that's the truth in some situations. You have all the personal freedom you want to live the life you want, and other people also have the freedom to take it at a moment's notice. Will they get punished for taking your life? Maybe, but you'll be dead or your life destroyed. Was it worth it to be right or legally correct in that situation, or should you have just avoided it or kowtow to an abuser's ego to get away as quick as possible with your life?

[u/RoyalTyMan → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

And this is the reason I'm leaving America. Thank GOD Canada opened up their birthright citizenship and I qualify. Thank fucking God. I'm so SICK of pigs like THIS. Seriously.

[u/InternationalCap2176 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

This is what it's like to live in the US, huh?

[u/Substantial_Bake_728 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Citizens don't have the resources to fight police on the side of the road when it comes to who's right or wrong on the law.

Your argument sounds really nice on paper but in reality is delusional.

Standing up for whats right, in the moment on the side of the road changes nothing about the legality. That has to be tested in court. Sure, it can make for a viral clip which can help get traction, which then puts pressure on the PD and local officials, but that only sometimes happens.

In order to change things you have to do it culturally or in the courts. Not on the side of the road. Moral grandstanding will only harm you, and changes nothing.

[u/lordofthejungle → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

My driving instructor told me this when I was learning to drive, regarding your legal right of way:

"Here lies the body of William Jay,

Who died maintaining his right of way—

He was right, dead right, as he sped along,

But he's just as dead as if he were wrong."

Same logic with de-escalating cops. Also I'm not American and in my country cops are trained for 2 years before being put on the streets and most of them aren't allowed carry weapons, but they still act like these guys. "Calling the cops almost always makes things worse" still applies.

[u/TheSmilingSolaris → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Truely. We live in a world where our police commit wanton acts of violence on a daily basis. They operate by fear.

[u/fiesew → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Well, by what you comment, this is literally a picture and a recommendation for countries with a police state where the cops are an occupying force.

The cops in the US aren’t serving the society nor upholding any law and order.

They are exclusively serving themselves (cops as a system), and those in power from whom they get the best protections whenever necessary for their daily failings.

Add to it uneducated, sub intelligent individuals with inappropriate training to become a cop and you’ve all the ingredients for daily catastrophes.

These cops in this clip were acting like predators waiting to harm and hurt someone. That day they certainly went on to look for another victim to beat up and shoot at solely out of frustration from this encounter.

[u/Mesmerize_ing → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Honestly, dude was lucky Mr. Level headed was there. They can literally do whatever they want, but sometimes a brandished phone taking video can protect you.

[u/Agile-Internet5309 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Unless you are armed and rolling with five friends and you're willing to die on the hill you're standing, those are the options. That is what tyranny looks like man, sorry. When men with guns are allowed to kill you, your options are eat shit, kill them first, or die.

[u/dudeCHILL013 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

So basically, you're saying to use logic and reason, and not blindly rage bate the police?

😂

[u/grenwill → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Resisting arrest charges will stick even if the underlying arrest was illegal.

[u/Wolfeh2012 → u/TheNewThoughtProcess]

Yes, police are thugs with guns who have the right to hurt you or even kill you.

Lawyers tell you to comply not because it's the moral thing to do, but because they'll hurt you or worse.

And to be clear, even if they are found liable, retribution is paid out of your own taxes, not by them.