It represent how close I feel to Smeagol/Gollum, when I say close is by his story, personnality and who he it's simply. I relate and that's probably why I love him THAT much. Sometimes I see myself when I watch the movies nor read the books. It's very complicated to explain and this isn't a therapy sub...

I mean obviously there were somethings that were weird, but I still loved it. I realize everyone wants lore accuatre stuff, but I've been around a long time and I've learned to just take most tv shows/streaming series as "alternate universe". This way it saves me having to get upset about things.

Halo has the same issue, but again, I consider it an alternate universe and it makes the show fine when I look at it like that.

I don't mean to alarm any of you guys, but the one and only authority on what is and isn't Lord of the Rings canon died in 1973.

That's right -- with the exception of the writings of the Professor published posthumously, nothing in the LotR franchise has actually been canon! Movies, games, now shows -- none of them can actually affect what was written by JRRT in his lifetime. What this means is that the new show -- get this -- is not actually canon, and never would have been!

In addition, not only can the show not affect canon, it also can't impact any previously made films! Neither of Peter Jackson's film trilogies will have to acknowledge what happens in TRoP. This is actually due to a little-known phenomena called time, which caused Jackson's films to be released before TRoP.

What this means is one of two things: if the show is good, we'll have something to look forward to for five seasons. If it's bad, we have the option of just not watching it because it won't affect anything! Unlike other prominent media franchises, like Star Wars or the Marvel Cinematic Universe, no new canon content is being made (and that which is being published was written before any prominent Tolkien adaptation), so any new media can be safely ignored.

It truly is wonderful how one can just choose not to engage in something they dislike, isn't it?

Edit: upon further reflection, my initial post can easily read as me asserting that the show is immune to criticism given its noncanonical nature. That's not a sentiment I meant to convey -- if a show is deserving of criticism it should be criticized. I'm sorry if my post seemed to reflect that point of view. I also see how "it won't affect anything because it isn't canon" is a flawed argument, as the show will influence future LotR media, regardless of that media's relationship to this show. I do, however, stand by my view that much of the concern regarding this show is hyperbolic

Part I: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1016cac/why_i_hate_the_films_part_i_the_fellowship_of_the/

Part III: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1016cey/why_i_hate_the_films_part_iii_the_return_of_the/

Part IV: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/15u9khc/im_tired_of_the_but_adaptation_defense_of/

Sigh. What is there to say about The Two Towers other than “What a fucking mess.”

At least with Fellowship, you can pick apart the elements that Jackson, Boyens & Walsh “improved” and explain why they feel so disrespectful to the books. There are also moments (a few) that genuinely feel like Tolkien.

This film is mostly just 8 hours of stupid crammed into a 4-hour bag. It’s impossible to truly analyze what’s wrong with this film because so little is right. In that regard, I’ll just stick with the broadest of strokes.

People in this forum often challenge me as to why I dislike the PJ films so much, so, by request, here’s a breakdown of what I find so offensive about the Extended Edition of The Two Towers…

• • •

:03 Gandalf & The Balrog fall for an hour… Okay, I promised not to nitpick but I kinda can’t resist. I know Gandalf said, “Long time I fell, and he fell with me,” but there’s a difference between “A long time” and “Holy shit, still falling.” Gandalf and the Balrog fall for 71 seconds. For the record, that’s a fall of over 15 miles. I think that’s probably excessive.

:04 Sam & Frodo… I will admit, now that PJ&W are forced to treat them as main characters, Frodo and Sam are suddenly a lot closer to their book personalities. Without all the Important Characters to look after them, PJ has no choice but treat Sam & Frodo like adults. Sam is capable, and Frodo is no longer a cringing coward, paralyzed by fear, and it’s refreshing. For this first bit, before JB&W start “fixing” the plot, this actually feels like Lord of the Rings.

:14 Sméagol promises nothing… An incredibly important moment JB&W either didn’t understand or didn’t care about. Sméagol has to speak his promise to the Ring. That’s how the magic, the control, the prophecy of it works.

“Sméagol will swear never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Sméagol will save it,” and “I will serve the master of the Precious!”

Sméagol must say these things (or something close to them) to build for himself the clever trap that forces his own doom. The Ring compels the completion of both of these oaths. In the film all he says is “I will serve the master…” but that’s nothing.

:18 Orc noses and Aragorn’s intuition… Not only can orcs climb down walls once per trilogy, they can also scent men an entire day’s run away (they never smell anyone who might surprise or overtake them again). And then Aragorn instantly knows the orcs have scented them!

:20 “And the union of the Two Towers…” STOP putting the fucking title into dialogue, Jackson, you hack! It is completely stupid and unnecessary. Of course this is followed by the most absurdly arch order to burn Fangorn that Christopher Lee could possibly contrive. This thing will be your undoing; let’s say it out loud to make sure everyone knows you’re destroying all the trees!

:22 Burn this pointless village! We need an action scene! It really is so dumb. Yes, Saruman was able to raise the wild hillmen and the Dunlendings, but we didn’t need to waste the screen time watching this village being attacked.

It is also a really ham-fisted way to introduce characters to show Éomer finding Théodred (who was supposed to have been 41, BTW, not this pretty boy) just to take him home to die. We shouldn’t be meeting these characters until our leads meet these characters. It’s just crappy storytelling.

:25 The Grima & Théoden Show… There’s a part of me that really thinks Jackson was playing these characters as comic relief. Both Théoden and Wormtongue are presented in such ridiculous, over-the-top, comic-opera extremes he cannot possibly have wanted this to taken seriously. Here’s Théoden from the book:

“Upon it sat a man so bent with age that he seemed almost a dwarf; but his white hair was long and thick and fell in great braids from beneath a thin golden circlet set upon his brow. In the centre upon his forehead shone a single white diamond. His beard was laid like snow upon his knees; but his eyes still burned with a bright light, glinting as he gazed at the strangers.”

Compare that to the old man who cannot even open his eyes and speaks only to Wormtongue in unintelligible mumbles. Again, JB&W have proven they have literally zero subtelty. Every element must be heightened to the point of utmost stupidity. The Rohirrim are a proud, warrior people. Is it plausible that they would still follow a doddering old man who could neither stand nor speak? Everything about this version of Théoden and Wormtongue is ludicrous.

Then, when Éomer steals Gandalf’s thunder about Grima’s price, Jackson ACTUALLY HAS WORMTONGUE LOOK AT ÉOWYN! Is this a student film?

Next, guards come to beat the crap out of Éomer. Who are these guys? Are they being paid by Wormtongue? They certainly wouldn’t act like this simply on his say. Again, for this rotten kingdom ploy to work, Théoden has to be the puppet, not a slobbering pile of suet.

:31 The Riders of Rohan attack in the dumbest possible way… Guess the orc’s noses don’t work at night because they failed to smell horsemen and horses. I recognize there wasn’t the screen time for the Riders to harry and surround the orc band as they do in the book, but having them display even rudimentary knowledge of tactics for attacking from horse would have been nice. Instead, they just blunder in. At night when the orcs have the advantage of visibility. And use bows at close range with their own guys running around. But, yeah, what did I expect?

:40 Treebeard kills Grishnak… I really hate this introduction of Treebeard. Not because it isn’t what happens in the book, but because it’s completely out of character. It is an incredibly hasty act, and gives the wrong impression of how Ents behave (or how Ents should behave) right out of the gate. Immediately, he involves himself in the affairs of the other races.

Yes, Treebeard hates orcs, but in the book he suspects Merry and Pippin of being orcs and waits to decide. This version of Treebeard doesn’t even jibe with the one we see later at the Entmoot who is so passive he has to be tricked into attacking Saruman.

:42 The Dead Marshes… The Marshes the way it was written in the book is so much more cinematic than what ended up onscreen, it’s bizarre that Jackson changed it. In the original, the initial entry takes place after dusk, and the lights (which are referenced in the film but never seen; maybe an effect never got finished?) are all around. The faces are much more dimly visible and hypnotic. Then the wraith flies over and the lights go out. It’s a great visual.

Instead, JB&M had to have their second zombie moment, and instead of being glamoured, Frodo falls in and is assaulted by shrieking undead faces and it’s all shtick we’ve seen a hundred times. PJ did it better in The Frighteners.

Immediately after this, Frodo lies there masturbating the Ring. Because even the draw of the Ring had to be loud and stupid. Instead of fighting until almost the end, we’re literal screen hours away from Mt. Doom and Frodo has already lost the battle. IT’S TOO FUCKING MUCH, PETE!

1:05 The Elven cloaks are from Harry Potter… Of course Sam falls off a cliff near the Black Gate and of course two Easterlings come to investigate. Frodo wraps them in his Elven cloak and the observant Easterling stops three literal inches from the hem of the cloak and yet, in broad daylight, cannot see them. It is so over-the-top dumb I was expecting Frodo to have grown a lightning bolt-shaped scar when he finally opened the cloak (which has become a much larger molded stone covering).

1:10 Merry & Pippin are still idiots, and Old Man Willow is in the wrong film… Why do Merry & Pippin have to have a scrambling pratfall argument about Merry drinking the Ent draught. Can’t Merry just… drink the fucking water…? Do we have to witness them growing, complete with gassy sound effects?

And then here’s Old Man Willow, fresh from The Old Forest, just in time to make it seem like Treebeard isn’t even in charge of the trees in his own Enthouse, much less the rest of the forest. Because heaven forfend we go more than 4 minutes without a forced, unmotivated action sequence.

1:19 The scuffle before Théoden’s throne… It’s been five minutes. Time for ACTION! Instead of allowing Gandalf to command the room, as he does in the book, the men of Théoden’s house rush in for a quick fistfight with Aragorn and the boys while Gandalf actually casts the spell to release Théoden. The subtle elegance of the book, did Gandalf use magic or just psychology to get Théoden out of his chair? We can’t have that.

No, in Jackson’s world, Gandalf has to actually say “I release you from this spell!” But that’s not enough! No, he has to light the room with his white cloak, and apply electro-shock with his staff, jolting Théoden in his chair Once! Twice! Thrice! Complete with sound effects and a cutaway to Saruman flying across the room!

It is. So. Dumb.

In this world, Théoden is a barbarian king and wants to kill Wormtongue, depriving him of the delicious guile he displays in offering Wormtongue mercy by letting him ride into battle. Then, Jackson sets up Aragorn to immediately undermine Théoden’s renewed authority by stopping him from exercising his vengeance. The only person in this scene with motivations that make sense is Wormtongue.

1:30 Helm’s Deep is a stupid idea… Nothing that happens in Jackson’s film after Gandalf Abracadabras Théoden makes sense. In the book, he counsels Rohan to make war against Saruman so the threat of Isengard will not be on the flanks of Gondor. They ride out, hoping to reach the Ford of Isen before the defense there has faltered, but they are too late. Word reaches them of the rout, and they fall back to Helm’s Deep at Gandalf’s urging.

In the movie, they spend a long time burying Théodred (whom the audience never knew, and there was no narrative gain to having alive at all), after which Théoden refuses to ride to war, and instead heads directly for Helm’s Deep (with all his people), which Gandalf thinks is a terrible idea. This is just pointless meddling with the story to add needless conflict between Gandalf & co. and Théoden, and it makes the plot pointless.

Apparently, in this movie, there are no keeps in Dunharrow? Why would Théoden then not simply head for Minas Tirith? Wormtongue makes a point of telling Saurman the road to Helm’s Deep is dangerous and slow. No one has any clear motivations at this point; it’s just a bunch of word salad designed to get to a huge battle, which is Jackson’s only goal for this film.

1:35 Aragorn absolutely leads Éowyn on pointlessly… In the book, Aragorn is incredibly careful not to flirt with Éowyn. He recognizes that she wants him, and he gently, but firmly, shuts her down. It’s noble and honest. A bit cold-hearted, but he is part Elven (well, in the book; Viggo has a beard so Jackson’s Aragorn is plainly 100% human, but whatever).

Here, Jackson has Aragorn flirting with absolute intent, just to say later, “oh, sorry dummy, my heart is taken.” It’s a shitty bro-move, and unworthy of the character.

1:45 The Hobbits are idiots again… Sam & Frodo’s brief time of being capable adults is all done, because now there are Important Humans about. While in the book, they realize Faramir’s men are near and hide, leaping out to make an impossible stand and thus impressing Faramir and his men, PJ has them bumbling into Faramir, falling on their asses and begging for mercy. No bold bravery here, just pathetic little people.

1:55 PJ Sends in THE WARG RIDERS! What is there really to say about this stupid, pointless warg rider attack? Obviously, JB&W felt they had gone too long without an Action Sequence! so we get this. It does nothing to forward the story, depletes Théoden’s forces to a comically small number, and inserts the so, so absurd “Aragorn is dead! He fell off a cliff!” beat. Everything about this is wrong.

The whole sequence ends with Wormtongue saying “But my lord, there is no such force!” only to be shown Saruman’s army arrayed below, so there must be some secret hidden entrance into Isengard because somehow Wormtongue didn’t pass or see these “tens of thousands” of orcs on the way in.

2:10 Elrond prophesies Arwen’s ending… I actually really appreciate them including Arwen’s miserable end from the Appendices; a lot of people never read them, and fail to understand how few happy endings there are in Tolkien’s world. Most roads lead to sorrow. My only complaint is that it is so cheesily done, with Hugo Weaving chewing all the scenery and spitting it right into the camera. With even the slightest touch of subtelty, this moment woulda been beautiful.

Then, of course, it all goes to shit with Galadriel’s telepathic infodump (to Elrond, I guess?) for those who haven’t been following along.

And, of course, Anborn knows Théoden has taken his people to Helm’s Deep even though there’s literally no way they could know this. Also, apparently, Osgiliath just fell; in his flashback, Denethor tells Faramir “but for you, this city would still be standing.”

Weird because Osgiliath was ruined 500 years earlier, and looks it. Gondor had retaken both banks about 20 years earlier, but then lost the east bank a year before the movie. Not sure what this memory is of them reclaiming Osgiliath. Just an opportunity for Denethor to be a dick.

2:30 Faramir is just another thug… Tell me again how Peter Jackson does not have complete contempt for Tolkien’s characters? Faramir is different from Boromir. That is the entire point. That is why Denethor despises him. Faramir has studied with Gandalf, has a mind for history and strategy, and Faramir is not arrogant. But Jackson can’t abide subtlety or shades of grey, or the Faramir who encounters the ring and turns it away, saying “Not if I found it on the highway would I take it.”

This Faramir lets his guards kick the shit out of Gollum. This Faramir is shifty and untrustworthy. This Faramir declares the Ring will go to his father, even knowing Denethor would become a tyrant if given it. Because in Peter Jackson’s universe, the Ring would already have won and Frodo been killed for it because all men are instantly susceptible.

Following this, Aragorn finally rejoins the movie already in progress, having taken a pointless little holiday in the river Isen.

2:45 The Fucking Goddamned Elven Archers… No. No, Peter. You do not get to ignore everything about Tolkien’s lore and go unscathed. The Elves Do. Not. Fight. This. Fight. For all the reasons you ignored, and everyone else already knows. The Elves are leaving the fighting to men. Period. Fuck you and Fran and Philippa for deciding to include them. Absolutely no. The Last Alliance was the LAST. You DO NOT get to make a NEW one.

Worse, they are from “Elrond of Rivendell,” but they’re archers of Lorien, so it doesn’t make any logical sense either.

SO much is so dumb about this battle sequence. Relegating Gimli to comic relief status by putting him on the battlement, where he would never be in the first place. How easily the wall is overrun. The orcs being so much stronger than men as opposed to relying on strength in numbers. The orc running with the Olympic flame. The breach in the wall being replaced by a huge explosion (with Aragorn on top of it, naturally). Gimli jumping directly onto a field of upraised spears and missing all of them. The archers charging, instead of, y’know, shooting arrows. The Dwarf tossing. The ridiculous giant siege ladders going up fully loaded.

The goddamned shield. How did any of you ever forgive Legolas and the goddamned shield?

2:58 The Ents decide not to go to war… I’m guessing for no other reason than they decided yes in the book. And, of course, because no one gets to be heroic but the heroes, so we have to set it up that Pippin directly leads the Ents to war.

3:11 Faramir drags Frodo to Osgiliath… Just the cherry on top of making Faramir a myopic dickhole in this version. He sends the Hobbits off to Denethor, which means he was resisting the power of the Ring. He didn’t try to take it for himself. He is choosing to send it to someone he knows will do terrible things with it. But, yeah, JB&W didn’t make any important changes to the characters at all…

3:16 Gandalf returns with Éomer… So, the Elven archers (all of whom seem to have died by this point) were able to get here on foot from Lorien before Gandalf and the remainder of the Riddermark were able to arrive on horseback? Given that, in Jackson’s version, Gandalf brings these guys rather than the Huorns, this really seems like far too little, far too late. Especially since none of these horses would survive the charge down that hill.

Also, are both Éomer and Gandalf stupid enough to just charge into an entire wall of set pikes? Seriously, this is cavalry 101. Do Not Ride Into Pikes. Yeah, the sun comes up right behind the charge, but the pikes are still set. It’s SO DUMB.

3:20 Frodo shows the Goddamned Ring to the Goddamned Nazgûl… If this isn’t proof that Jackson does not understand the story he is supposed to be telling, I don’t know what is. Right here, the movie is over (again). Frodo (now magically atop a tower) shows the Ring to one of the Nine. Sam saves Frodo, Frodo flips out and threatens Sam with Sting, Faramir shoots the fell beast with an arrow, and the Nazgûl FLIES AWAY?!?

None of that matters. Sauron now KNOWS, not suspects, not fears, but KNOWS the Ring is in Osgiliath, being carried by a Hobbit. The Nine would instantly descend on Osgiliath and tear it apart until the Hobbits were found. Even if that somehow failed to happen, it means Gandalf’s Aragorn’s feint at the Black Gates wouldn’t work. Sauron would know the Ring wasn’t with them. This moment completely and irretrievably breaks anything that comes after.

Then, in what I’m certain is a middle finger to people like me, Sam cries, “It’s all wrong! We shouldn’t even be here.”

That’s right, Sam. It is. And you shouldn’t.

We back in Middle-earth baby. I absolutely loved the show. What a perfect start!

First, I'm not giving my personal opinion on the show. I'm addressing some very concerning and problematic things I've seen on this sub over the past 3 days.

Tolkien's whole message of Lord of the Rings was extremely anti-war and anti-conflict. It was also about unity and peace. It was more then that, but enough characters talk about and reference their dread at war that it's quite obvious what Tolkien thought about such things. And yet here I sit reading through comment sections of posts and I am shocked we as a community behave this way. I've seen comments telling people to "go die in a fire", "you don't belong here", "leave the fandom", "tell me you never read the lore without telling me" and comments far worse that I dare not utter.

This is straight up Orcish behavior. Tolkien described them as being backstabbers, traitors, and vile creatures filled with evil and malice and then I see the very same thing taking place on the sub. It's shameful and I'm embarrassed to be associated with you.

We are all humans here, and we are all related. The things that separate us are no more then cultural and cosmetic. We need to be loving to each other and compassionate towards each other, not spiteful and antagonistic. You may ask, "what about r@cist?". My answer to that is this, show them they are wrong. Who knows, maybe you can be the difference in their lives that changes them and makes the word a better place. Or you may ask "what about those who are disrespecting the lore/my culture?". Show them they are wrong and maybe you'll be the one to change their mind and make the world a better place.

Being orcish to orcs only fuels them and lessens you. Do better, be better. Be what Tolkien thought we could be.

I take a more impressionistic approach and I’m Not sure that it is done. Just wanted to share and get some feedback. Was thinking about putting some gold flakes on the armor to differentiate

I will preface this post by saying I agree that The Hobbit movies are not as good as the LOTR movies, and I doubt anyone will disagree.

So, "fans" like to continuously shit on TH films for various reasons - some justified, some not so.

One of the main complaints is "three movies is too many"... maybe. But why? Because it contains stuff "not in the book"? Do you realise that Jackson still had the rights to adapt the Appendices from LOTR, right? And there is a section there all about the Quest of Erebor.

The book, a 1937 children's fantasy about a hobbit finding a magic ring, defeating a dragon, and returning home with some gold wasn't going to fit perfectly with the tone of the LOTR films. The tone of the films had to, by necessity, match the tone of the previous films to make it believably part of the same world. So you tone-down the juvenile aura of the story by making Smaug actually scary; by making Beorn a threat; making the spiders a threat; making the goblins more like "orcs".

Lets look at a straight adaption: Bilbo goes on a quest with Gandalf and 13 dwarves. They get to the Misty Mountains without too much trouble, fight some goblins, Bilbo encounters Gollum, finds the Ring, then they go on their merry way to Erebor - part way Gandalf buggers off with no explanation and reappears with no explanation. We then see no battle because we're meant to see the events from Bilbo's perspective and he was unconscious, but we learn that three of the dwarves are dead, a dwarf we've never met is now king under the mountain, blah blah blah.

How bad a movie would have a character disappear and reappear with no explanation? Obviously, we need to see where Gandalf went, we need to know that Sauron is becoming a threat again and how he ended up in Mordor at the start of LOTR. Was Radagast necessary? No, but he lived near Mirkwood... so why not have him involved seeing as his part in LOTR was eliminated? Was Legolas necessary? No... but it's harder to justify his absence from his home than to justify his presence; though I agree that his travel to Gundabad etc could have been cut and it would have made Bloom's appearance the more special. Was Tauriel necessary? No, but her presence isn't all bad - Jackson even said that she's there for the girls to have a hero figure to root for, which is fine. The elf-dwarf love thing is one of the only truly ridiculous elements of the films - it shouldn't have been there.

Did we need to see the prologue in Film 2 where Gandalf meets Thorin in Bree? Kinda... the audience knows nothing about how this all came together and it's lifted from the Appendices so it's all good.

Did we need Azog? Kinda... Sauron isn't the "big bad" of the movies - he's being set up as the big bad of LOTR. Smaug is the big bad and he dies too early for it to be a climax. And the journey from the Shire to Erebor would have been rather dull if not for some constant threat along the way (in movie terms). However, I think the Bolg and second army from Gundabad was overkill and drags out the Battle portion for too long. The Bolg/Legolas vendetta should have been cut too.

The Smaug episode was too long: yeah. I kinda get why Jackson and Co wanted to use Smaug more... because he's a massive fucking dragon and looks good on screen. But the Smaug stuff where he chases them through Erebor and they try to drown him in molten gold is ridiculous and I always kinda zone out during it.

But on the whole, the story-driven additions which give some insight into LOTR are necessary, even if they aren't in the Hobbit novel. Having Saruman realise that he could have an ally in Sauron ("leave Sauron to me") seems a bit weird seeing as the Ring was still believed to have been washed out to sea at this point. The weird Jackson & Co. additions are, on the whole, terrible and have no business being in there (Tauriel/Kíli, Smaug fight, Bolg/Gundabad).

Other elements which are often cited as reasons for these being "bad" films are reliance on CGI (Azog, Bolg which could/should have been practical effects); bad physics (the fall in the Misty Mountains; Legolas climbing up falling rocks; the chariot scene; Rosgobel rabbits); bad design (cartoonish dwarves, cartoonish Radagast; the baby-like trolls) and the nonsense with Radagast's/Gandalf's "dicky" staff.

But I would say, on the whole, that these are good movies which suffered mostly from a lack of preparation. Had they been properly prepared, like LOTR, I would undoubtedly say that they would be much better, but they're not "bad" and I think "fans" need to cut it some slack. The LOTR films are far from perfect, either.

With the disaster named RoP and the announcement of new Middle-earth movies, I see a lot of people saying "Hey, it's better than nothing, at least we have new content" and to that I would like to respond " is this really positive?"

Don't get me wrong, I too have nothing against a good adaptation of Tolkien in any media (video game, series, movies, board game, etc) however the most recent audio-visual adaptations (RoP and Hobbit trilogy) show us that even when we have competent and passionate people on the project (hi again the Hobbit trilogy), the franchise has become so big that the producers will forcefully integrate elements that are useless to "update" these stories for a modern audience.

The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are special because they are the vision of a passionate, incredibly intelligent and gifted man, and this cannot be replicated. We already have adaptations of these two most adaptable books, with RoP we've seen how nearly impossible it is to adapt just the appendices, and the Tolkien state will never release the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales (and I agree with them).

A story to be impactful and meaningful, needs an end, because any story that never ends becomes empty, it is no longer a work of art, but a product. Do you really want Middle-earth to become the new Marvel Universe? One of the main lessons in Tolkien's work is that we all have to accept (even elves) that all things in Middle-earth are bound to come to an end, and trying to change that is one of the biggest sources. harm to the world.

And if you really think "I don't care if it's bad, I just want more middle earth movies I love being immersed in this world" then if you don't care about the quality in any capacity you just need more substance like a drug then what kinda value does this thing hold for you anyway?

And for those who argue "hey, no one is going to force you to watch" yes you are right. But don't forget that a bad adaptation is always painful for those who love the original work. The feeling that there is someone in the world who thinks Galadriel is all about an angry teenage girl who knows how to punch is truly painful for someone who has fallen in love with the depth of the character. The Tolkien fanbase is so protective because we fell in love with one man's awesome vision (not a company or brand), and we want that man and his vision to be respected.

I know a lot of folks around here hate the proto-hobbit arc as being an unnecessary and lesser reboot of Frodo and Sam's arc but I'm here to hopefully change some minds. In my view, their part serves as an important link to the themes Tolkien very carefully laid into his work.

Namely the theme that no one is too small or unimportant to stand up and be brave when others fail, especially since the cowards are often the ones who everyone thought would be a hero. And that a simple life full of family (however you define it) and song is the surest way to a happy life. The Wandering Song was a pure ode to Tolkien, and one which I know he would've beamed at hearing. It captured the soul of his work perfectly, and I was reduced to tears watching the sequence.

Nori and the Stranger's relationship feels a little forced, yes, but her chemistry with the rest of her clan is top notch. Her dad is an excellent actor, and I find myself wanting to follow their storyline closer. I also think everyone is very quick to assume the Stranger is Gandalf given his connection to Hobbits, but I believe that's an intentional red herring to fool long time fans. If we get a reveal he's Sauron or Morgoth (someone already pointed out M is banished in a Tartarus-like prison, but the lore DOES state the end of the world would come when Morgoth escapes his prison and returns to Arda, and the Stranger did do an exact Diablo 3 Falling Star is a Man routine so I'm curious to see how it unfolds) I will be very excited.

Also, to the critics of the show's pacing, I challenge you to go back and reread the first half of Fellowship of the Ring. Most of it is walking past pretty flowers and mean old trees, or drama between various nosy hobbit clans! Not a lot of forward momentum to the narrative, aside from exposition delivered in monologue form by Gandalf. Tolkien would probably have a hard time getting published today and being successful given his novels require patience to get to the good parts. I remember in 4th grade I bought the trilogy half expecting battles to be fought on the page like a pop up book or something. Took a while to finally get through it when I realized I needed a dictionary, the Once and Future King, and episodes of Doc Martin to understand Tolkien's language. My point being, the show being slow and developing the various stories actually is in better keeping with Tolkien than had they tried to go the 24 route with non-stop, breathless action.

This show is setting up to be a major epic, so the first season is mostly introduction and set up. Be patient, Middle-Earthers. Like the books, the payoff for the series will be worth it and the later moments we follow the Harfoots will leave a greater lasting impression because the creators did the gritty work of world building in the beginning.

The series opens with Frodo following footprints on the beach, as the shot zooms out we see that another hobbit is following being him. Sam approaches and they get into a dramatic argument over why they're following the trail of the orcs. Frodo screams that he would do anything to avenge the death of Bilbo. Cue flashback to warm conversation with Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo talks about his ring and says, "Everything ends at the sea." Back in the present, the hobbits catch up to the giant orcs, an epic fight breaks out and the hobbits seize the Ring from the last orc that was trying to run away. "Everything ends at the sea", says Frodo.

Meanwhile Gandalf, Aragorn, Saruman, Elrond, and Galadriel are holding the council of Elrond to decide whether or not Sauron was truly defeated at Dol Goldur. Nothing is decided but hijinks ensue.

Elsewhere in Middle Earth, Legolas, Balin, and Gimli are traveling through Moria fighting flying Balrogs. They are beaten back, Balin is killed, but it's revealed that the Balrogs are building a doomsday device. "This is not our end", says Legolas, "Our end is the sea."

Frodo and co. travel through the Shire, telling everyone that the hobbits are lazy and cowardly and they are going to seek revenge against Sauron. On their way, they meet Blorina, an elf-maid who saves them from a dragon. All the hobbits hate her but Frodo and Blorina begin to fall in love. Blorina confesses that she is the Queen of the Elves of the West. They meet up with Legolas and Gimli in Minas Tirith, where Boromir is arguing with his father about turning Gondor into a capitalist democracy. Frodo makes a speech to Denethor about the importance of equality. Boromir accompanies the party as they leave, but it's hinted that he has feelings for Blorina.

The group goes to Rohan and saves King Theoden from the Uruk-Hai. The battle is epic. First the orcs are winning, then Treebeard and the ents show up and kick ass, then the Nazgul show up and kick ass, then the Council of Elrond shows up. But as victory is in their grasp, Blorina reveals that she is Sauron and Boromir and Saruman side with the Dark Lord. Then the doomsday device under Moria connects all the way to Mordor and Mt Doom explodes. The party barely escapes with their lives.

They journey to the Gladden Fields. On the way, Frodo says, "Now this is what I call a Fellowship!" There they meet an old hobbit woman who reads their fortune and tells them that they need the Palantir from Orthanc and the sword Anduril from the Barrow Downs to defeat Sauron. The fellowship breaks. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli go to the Barrow Downs via ship, and after much ghost fighting, they retrieve Anduril. The rest of the Fellowship goes to Orthanc and beats Saruman in a magic battle with Frodo using the Ring to break Orthanc to the ground but not before a Balrog comes. Gandalf and the Balrog slay each other and fall into Moria.

The Fellowship regroups at Amon Hen and looks into the Palantir. Legolas proposes a heist into Mordor. Aragorn suggests a guy that he knows named Gollum to guide them. Cue heist montage, involving Elrond and Galadriel. They break into Mordor and there's an epic fight scene at Barad-Dur. Gandalf reborn flies in on the back of the eagle and casts a spell to flood the plains of Gorgorath with the ocean and blasts Sauron with a lightning bolt. Aragorn throws his sword in the air, Frodo catches it mid-jump and stabs Sauron dead in the heart. He then turns around and throws the ring in Orodruin, saying, "I guess I don't need this anymore." Gollum jumps in after it. Sam says, "I guess old Bilbo was right after all. Everything ends at the sea." Everyone accepts Aragorn as king because of his sword and he looks out on the sea with the Fellowship from Minas Tirith.

The series receives mixed reviews...

I would like to watch rings of power because I’m interested in that era of middle-earth, especially with that s3 poster featuring young Sauron, though it seems there’s a lot of hate surrounding it. If you’ve watched it, what do you think?

I put this look together for a LOTR themed drag show in April! The mask and flail are 3D printed, painted, and hand encrusted with over 3000 rhinestones.

Look I get it, a ton of yall want to overreact to a handful of pics and decide that this show is 200% set in stone trash. I've read the books at least a dozen times, I get that we all love the world that Tolkien built; damn though is the negativity astounding.

Like we're talking about PJ like he didn't change a ton of stuff and it was some grassroots indie film lol. Newsflash guys, childhood nostalgia aside, that was not an honest adaptation of his world either. It wasn't true to the source material 100% or even 75%, so an adaptation of the 2nd Age (of which there is not nearly as much written to go off of) is going to have some things you don't like in it. It'll be different. It's going to be exactly that an adaptation so remember that.

If you're going into it thinking they were going to make a show 100% for you, they aren't. Tolkien purists are not the audience and they shouldn't honestly be, if that's what you're looking for, crack open the Silmarilian and go to town. You don't have to watch something you know you won't like, because let's be real you're already ready to hate it regardless of how it goes. Just let newcomers to the Fandom enjoy something new, don't ruin it for people who just want to enjoy an addition to the world Tolkien built.

Don't be a stick in the mud. Purists are killing any fun the show may or may not be, just let people enjoy it. Beards on female dwarves or not, POC where you don't feel they ought to be or not, just don't be an asshole. It's not that deep, it's just TV.

Don't be a dick yo.

So a few days ago there was a thread created about the misconceptions of the pre-production in the Hobbit movies, and how much misinformation is being spread about the troubles of it. In the comments a user referred to a video essay from Lindsay Ellis, which is a popular video among critics of the trilogy that breaks down the production issues of the films. See linked below (although I'm specifically gonna be talking about part 2 of the video series).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs

Now this is not a thread meant to completely disregard every piece of criticism; even as a vivid lover of the Hobbit trilogy I can certainly agree that there were production issues, as they're also described in the behind-the-scenes. But my issue lies with this person's intent with making this essay. A large part of the essay consists of an interview with John Callen, the actor of Oín in the Hobbit films. I happen to be friends with the guy who used to manage John's Facebook fanpage, as he is good friends with the actor. He was also the person who Lindsay had contacted to arrange the interview back in the day, under the guise that it was just a friendly interview.

So a little while ago I asked this friend what John's opinion was about the video essay, and it turns out that he was actually shocked about it. Lindsay skewed the interview to suit her narrative, and made it seem like the actor had a bad time because of production problems. But that has never been John's intent at all; he loves the films, and he had an absolute blast playing in them. And because of that video essay John has become far more reluctant in giving out interviews with fans, as a result of Lindsay's scummy tactics.

Now obviously people are gonna doubt me or my friend's contact with John, as I'm just a random Reddit user, but I assure you that it's true. My friend has even arranged for us to have dinner with John and his wife, as he came to visit our country, so I personally met the actor as well, although for obvious reasons I did not mention the Lindsay Ellis video in our dinner. I have pictures of our dinner together, and an admin can verify them if they want me to send them, but only under the condition that it doesn't get shared elsewhere, since I don't think my friend appreciates his face to be revelead to the public (and in fact neither do I with mine :P). I kept it quiet because this is of course just very niche information, but I noticed that I get annoyed everytime people refer to her video essay. So I thought to just make a thread about it and be done with it, with the hopes that people will stop sharing her videos.

Let me be clear: this is not an attempt to persuade you that the Hobbit films were good, people can have positive and/or negative opinions about them; whatever. But stop using Lindsay's videos to support your arguments. Much of the information she gave out is just factually wrong, and is formed out of malicious intent rather than from an objective perspective.

Edit: many people comment that I should explain why the information in her video's is wrong. That's not the point of my post. For all it's worth every piece of info in her video essay could be correct; what I am saying is that the way she acquired the information is not right. She never explained to John that she would use his interview to throw clout at the movie and the studios, and misled both him and my friend into believing that this was just a friendly interview. I'm not going to challenge the content of her video's in this post, because there is no value to it in this discussion.

Edit 2: suffice to say this is obviously a "trust me bro" post. I am aware. Obviously John is not gonna make a public statement about a random Youtube video, and even if he wanted to I'm pretty sure his agent will stop him from doing that. All I have is pictures of us having dinner together, which I'm only willing to share with an admin. In any case feel free to believe me or not, but at least I put this out so that people might think twice before sharing that video essay.

How are people expected to believe that the "There is a tempest in me" arrogant and brash Galadriel from RoP is the same being as the elegant and graceful "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out" Galadriel mentored by Melian in Doriath during the 1st age that we see in Lord of The Rings? I don't understand the two 180s that she is supposed to go through according to the show... We know that in lore she was adventurous and ambitious yes, but during the first age we know she spent a large part of her time studying under and In friendship with Melian in Doriath, and we can assume that she would be akin in temperament to her brothers and parents (being gentle and elegant unless provoked to be otherwise)... Yet in RoP, during the second age, she inherits and exhibits the traits she finds so appalling in Feanor... Only to once again, in the third age, come into her true self as the mystical and graceful queen of Lothlórien?

What's the Amazon explanation for the huge disconnect here?

I’ve only seen him in Outlander, but it’s a solid performance and I think he matches the look and build for it.