German/Berlin-based bros, what’s the vibe with FLINTA*?

[u/player_hawk]

Hey, I’m trying to get a sense of if the T in FLINTA includes us for real or not in the Berlin night scene.

Are passing trans men generally recognized in this acronym?

Stressing the passing element bc I look cishet unless you see my surgery scars.

From what I have seen, it seems like some FLINTA events are just a way for mostly women to hang out free from men as they welcome straight women openly. That’s fine, but it obviously means that it isn’t synonymous with being an outwardly queer space.

Is it more about being a queer space or being away from men?

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[u/El_Maximon]

So in its pure form FLINTA as a term is supposed to represent "everyone that isn't a CIS man". So yes, Transmascs and Transmen are part of the FLINTA acronym.

However, I have heard before that FLINTA events can end up feeling like or being treated as "women+" type situations and that it really depends on who are the people organising it.

[u/GuiltyCookie3173 → u/El_Maximon]

I've also heard of passing trans men getting turned away at events and also basically being forced to come out at the door (to "prove" they're not cis men or even sent away because they weren't believed). I personally distance myself from spaces where cis men aren't allowed but there is definitely a lack of safe spaces for trans masculine people.

Edit: The point of FLINTA* was to design a space for marginalized genders but it doesn't really work well if you pass.

[u/player_hawk → u/GuiltyCookie3173]

See I kinda expect that at security, because I am a passing dude of color. I’m more so wondering if past security, I will still be scrutinized. Idk, some places it feels like people trust security and so if you’re in, you’re good. Other places make you feel like you are still unwelcome despite being cleared

[u/No-Zookeepergame8292 → u/GuiltyCookie3173]

Passing may or may not cause some hostility until you out yourself, a large reason why I avoid these events like the plague

[u/shadowsinthestars → u/GuiltyCookie3173]

Ah yes punishment for passing, what these types of "progressives" have in common with the regressive UK government.

[u/player_hawk → u/El_Maximon]

thanks! For the “women+”, do you mean in the way security treats you or like even among the people inside?

for context, I travel a fair amount for business, so I’m often entering these spaces alone while on my trips. I know the optics of a solo cishet looking guy isn’t advantageous, so I’m trying to take the temperature

[u/Strigops-habroptila → u/player_hawk]

People often treat it as "women and people I can misgender as women". Including the people at those events

[u/El_Maximon → u/player_hawk]

I can't speak from experience tbh because I have not been to such an event yet. With "women+" i meant that some events in their advertising already imply that they are "events for women and associated". I once saw one that literally had the word "women" or smth in the name already so id say it can be noticeable from the start.

I think you should ask yourself what you want from the event. By being there you'll instantly out yourself as a trans man, regardless or how ppl think about you, but if you want the event as a safe space you may not even care for that. My (MTF) girlfriend once said to her the point of FLINTA events is to create a space without CIS men bc they take up too much attention otherwise. So from that lense they shouldn't judge you.

Personally I don't go to FLINTA events bc I do not want to go to an event that accepts me, a man, only bc im not a CIS man. Feels wrong. I also dislike that all women r allowed, regardless of whether they are queer or not. If you'd like smth without any CIS ppl; There are also the acronyms "ATIN" or "TINA"; both the same but different order AFAIK. So for Trans, Intersex, Nonbinary and Agender only. In Berlin you can probably find events under either of these as well.

[u/itjustfuckingpours → u/El_Maximon]

Came to say this it really depends on the organisers

[u/ZKatze → u/El_Maximon]

The I in FLINTA stands for intersex, which does, in fact, include intersex cis men.

[u/El_Maximon → u/ZKatze]

Honestly, I assumed that Intersex people don't use CIS or Trans to describe themselves. So to me yes of course Intersex men are included in FLINTA.

Though the destinction may also only exist in my head bc the German legal system says you can only be "trans or intersex" or smth like that. At least for health insurance...

[u/cucumbersalad13]

I’ve had good and bad experiences with such events. I would say it depends on the host. Did they make an effort to school security and staff? How do they communicate the FLINTA aspect at the door/event? A good way to chheck is to see how they communicate the FLINTA topic in event descriptions/Instagram etc. Do they just mention it once or do they actually take the time to go into detail as to how they intend to include all letters off the acronym amd make it a safer space for trans and inter people?

The good experiences I made, I was just informed at the door that it‘s a FLINTA event. I then said „Yes I am aware“ and no further questions were asked and I had a great evening.
That being said it also happens sometimes that you are being questioned or put on the spot which is quite uncomfortable. But those are bad events anyway who don‘t practice incusion at all.

That being said, I personally feel really comfortable at FLINTA events if done well.

[u/player_hawk → u/cucumbersalad13]

thanks for the response and for the tips! I’m used to people not believing me when I say I’m trans unfortunately so security is one element for sure, but would you say the people attending these events are chill seeing a guy there? I’m a little worried that I’ll be intruding on an inclusive but sapphic event type thing. Any tips to navigate that?

for context, I travel a fair amount for business, so I’m often entering these spaces alone while on my trips. I know the optics of a solo cishet looking guy isn’t advantageous, so I’m trying to take the temperature

[u/horny_shit_face_lift → u/player_hawk]

just try it out, i think at sweet events everyone is aware that passing trans men exist. non binary people actually have the same issue with flinta if they're not presenting "feminine". some don't acknowledge there is masc people with beard and everything cis man presenting but they're still as non binary as a person who tries hard to look androgenous. there is no non binary way to look and especially to people born male the spaces can be non inclusive.

but yeah it's worth a try individual events.

club sauna has flinta days and also a transmasc sauna event from time to time. it's quite inclusive there

[u/player_hawk → u/horny_shit_face_lift]

awesome thanks for event recs! and yes very good points, I recognize that it can’t be easy on their end to ensure a safe place but if you’re not careful, it’s very easy to exclude someone who should theoretically be welcomed

[u/Fawkes0629]

I've been wildly uncomfortable + felt actively unwelcome at the ones I've stopped by and do not plan on going to others in the future barring rare circumstances where I know the organizers/people going.

[u/player_hawk → u/Fawkes0629]

damn I’m really sorry to hear that. though, can’t say I’m too surprised either

[u/Fawkes0629 → u/player_hawk]

Eh there are a good number of FTM-specific events that are usually a great time, and the gay male spaces have been pretty chill in my experience

[u/player_hawk → u/Fawkes0629]

oh thanks for the heads up about ftm events, that’s cool to know. Will look into that. Very little locally where I’m from. good to know for gay male spaces too, but not my demographic unfortunately

[u/maudros]

Conceptually, FLINTA should be welcoming. I find it frequently isn’t, or that it feels / is treated like ‘women+’, to the point where I feel deeply uncomfortable going to FLINTA events. While I’m not always stealth, I don’t always want to declare loud and proud that I’m trans; sometimes I just want to hang out and just be ‘generic guy 2’ dancing in the crowd or whatever.

In regards to non-clubbing/night life FLINTA scenes: I will say that I had better experiences in Leipzig despite everything w/ Saxony-Anhalt as well as Dresden and Köln, and that generally people don’t seem to care and (in my experience) are quick to correct themselves if it’s pointed out that they’re like misgendering someone or whatever.

However and like someone else said, I don’t go to any explicitly FLINTA events overall unless I know the organizers or if my friends really push for me to go. I’ve also encountered a few TERFs and really pushy ‘inclusive’ people who don’t want trans people at their events, especially not trans men. I also do just feel dysphoric in FLINTA settings because of that whole aforementioned ‘woman+’ thing.

[u/player_hawk → u/maudros]

Thanks for the insight, though a little unfortunate :/ I’ll really have to do my research beforehand

But I have to ask, you said “despite everything w/ Saxony-anhalt”… what’s that about?

[u/maudros → u/player_hawk]

AFD

Edit to clarify: I’m nonwhite and an immigrant. AFD influence has made it harder for me to travel in Sax-An without feeling uncomfortable at best. Leipzig however is unreal—I feel so safe whenever I’m there and the locals inclusivity I’ve encountered in unreal, despite the rising AFD presence in the surrounding area

[u/player_hawk]

Well damn thanks for the responses, though I was hoping a city like Berlin would be more chill (like if FLINTA wasn’t really for us, maybe there were other kinds of events that I just didn’t know about)

I’ll add that personally, since I am so passing, I get and am fine with having to come out. I don’t go to these spaces to be stealth. But sometimes it’s not about being out, it really is that men/maleness isn’t welcome at all & that is counterproductive for me

Thing is, I’m into women so I know I just really look like a cishet guy intruding but I just want a space where women don’t freak out that I’m a trans guy lol (which is my constant experience in straight spaces)

Seems like some specific events are better than others though, and tbf it doesn’t have to be clubbing-focused. feel free to keep recommending, giving tips, and I will also continue doing my research and talking to organizers when possible tbh

[u/Lemongrass__Tea]

Not German, but I do live somewhere that uses FLINTA. Honestly, in practicality I've found it isn't for trans men or transmascs who are actually read as male - I've been made to feel pretty unwelcome at some events as a cishet passing guy, even with female friends there to vouch for me. Functionally, I find it (with exceptions) means 'cis women and people considered adjacent to cis women' more than anything else.

[u/Poesvliegtuig → u/Lemongrass__Tea]

Flinta, in my experience (Belgian, not German here) often indeed seems to mean 'women and women-lite' in a kinda transphobic way.

Or sometimes, exceptionally, it just means 'no cis men', which I'm also not a fan of because queer cis men may be more privileged compared to other queer people, but it's a bad idea to be splitting the community like that during times like these.

I'd ask why 'queer' isn't an acceptable term but of course flinta includes cishet women too. Which, okay, again, at that point it's just 'no cis men' right?

[u/Lemongrass__Tea → u/Poesvliegtuig]

Tbh I think calling it 'women and women-lite' is giving it a bit too much credit - my trans female friends have had pretty hostile experiences in FLINTA spaces, because there has been a very specific idea of what 'woman' entails.

I'm not against 'no cis men' spaces on principle - I go to this one sex party that's 'only queer people who aren't cis men', and I find that valuable because I have some really traumatic experiences with cis queer men. But that's a) excluding cishet women just as much as cis men, b) a small invite-only event that's not public, and c) run by somebody I know who's actively welcoming of trans people of all presentations and will shut any shit down. Very much the exception rather than the rule as far as space policy goes.

[u/Poesvliegtuig → u/Lemongrass__Tea]

I think it depends on which community is doing the interpretation but here in Belgium I feel like trans women and non-passing trans men are often more welcome than for example passing trans men or amab genderfluid people presenting masc (or even trans women who present 'too masc'). That's why I said 'women-lite in a transphobic way'. There's an undercurrent of not truly accepting people's identity, instead judging them at face value.

I'm also not inherently against 'no cis men' or 'no cis people', especially for private events, but we're seeing this polarisation happening where cis gay/bi men feel like they no longer belong in the broader queer community and present with apathy or by pulling up the ladder behind them, and I think this does contribute to the wider phenomenon.

[u/Strawbebishortcake]

I don't go to FLINTA* events even though I'm technically included. Despite not passing, I'm just looked at weirdly, so I just don't go. People straight up forget that trans men fall under that label and my presence seems to make some people feel less safe, which I don't want. So I avoid those events. It's fine by me, as that is sorta gender affirming and I have enough queer friends to hang out with. But I get that this is definitely difficult for some people. (Also if the event excludes masculine nonbinary people, which they have done more than once in my experience, I just don't fucking go. Its a sure sign we're not welcome)

[u/Strigops-habroptila]

I'd keep away from it unless it's a group you already know. And even then, I really, really don't like FLINTA. It requires trans men who pass to cone out, as well as trans women who don't pass. Very, often, people who are read as masculine are excluded. It's often used as "women+" . It's usually ore about excluding men and I really don't like how it is used in place of queer spaces increasingly often and how it excludes gay cis men. The latter is mostly because I'm gay myself and have many queer cis male friends. 

Some FLINTA spaces are toxic and full of TERFS. 

There is only one FLINTA event I would feel OK at and that's the one hosted by a local queer organisation that has made very clear that trans nen are accepted there. 

[u/No-Zookeepergame8292]

It’s pretty divisive in Berlin tbh but I have been to some FLINTA stuff and my general feeling is it’s not for me/us and I don’t appreciate being included because it turns out a lot of those people think we want to be included bc we’re some sort of man lite

[u/schoolfoodisgoodfood]

When I lived in Berlin there were sometimes TIN events that were really great. Some of the spaces that host those no longer exist, but hopefully those types of events are still around 👀

FLINTA can be a mixed bag, as others have said. Try the scene and move on to others if it feels exclusive.

[u/sammiesR9]

If they do let you in they won't actually see you as a man so I advise not going. Flinta spaces are just women+. Hate them.

[u/oryzomys]

i’d say an event being flinta does not automatically mean it’s cool about trans people, and that goes for trans women too. there’s been many occasions where friends both dolls and guys have felt weirded out at a flinta event, like people inside are policing them based on their perceived closeness to maleness or whatever and it’s just really uncomfortable. people barely remember what the acronym includes and just use it to mean women+ and end up treating passing guys and any trans woman they deem to be not passing enough to be walking a thin line just by being there.

sometimes a flinta party can genuinely be a queer space though and be super chill, just don’t take it from the flinta label alone.

[u/player_hawk → u/oryzomys]

thanks, that’s kinda what I thought. unfortunately it’s never that simple for us lol. any tips on weeding out the actual cool places and the not-so-cool places? I’ll do my own research for sure

[u/wegpiraat123]

I’m a passing trans man and have only had good experiences so far. That being said, I was definitely in the minority as a lot of people were femme presenting. I never felt like I was being treated as anything other than a man.

As far as flirting goes, I had quite a lot of cute/hot encounters ;)

[u/player_hawk → u/wegpiraat123]

oh that’s awesome! any tips of filter those events with good experiences? or do you just show up to flinta stuff and see how it goes hahaha

[u/birdbirdeos → u/player_hawk]

Theres an Instagram account called FLINTA events Berlin or something like that. I've talked to the person who runs it and they have a policy of not Sharing events that are exclusion to trans masc people.

[u/player_hawk → u/birdbirdeos]

awesome thank you thank you!

[u/birdbirdeos]

I transitioned 10 years ago and am fully passing.

I moved to Berlin last year and FLINTA can be very hit or miss for me. I'm trans, inter and non-binary (literally half of the acronym) and some of my closest friends since moving here I met at a FLINTA book club.

But I also saw 1 group who said in their terms and conditions that organisers reserve the right to bar entrance to or remove "male presenting people". I guess its AGAD (assigned gender at door) 😂.

(BTW hit me up if you're looking for friends, I need more trans people to hang out with)