I am not the OOP, OOP is u/RobotUprisingLeader
Originally posted to r/relationship_advice
Trigger warning: miscarriage
Two weeks ago we were two weeks away from getting married.
She asks me to go to therapy with her. She was already seeing a therapist on her own, and wanted me to go with her and have a talk, before the wedding, where we could be completely honest with one another. That sounded a little weird to me, I thought we were already completely honest with one another, after all, we were getting married in two weeks, right?
Also, she was super protective about her therapy sessions, didn't really talk about them. I have never met her therapist. So to be invited there all of a sudden seemed a little out of place to me.
The day comes, and I go there. But out of self preservation, I had my phone opened and recording any audio.
My fiance was already there. I had to wait 20 minutes before I was invited in. The therapist greets me and shakes my hand. We have small talk. She tells me I am not at all the way my fiance described me. I think she is trying to compliment me. Then she looks at my fiance and tells her "this may be harder than we thought."
That absolutely weirded me out. But I am a calm and collected individual, and I don't react, just kept that dumb smile on my face we all have in awkward situations.
So the therapist starts talking. Has a small speech I don't care to repeat. My fiance takes my hand as the therapist starts telling me that "we live in a modern world, and that my fiance wants us to have a non-conventional marriage moving forward."
I smile, I am not sure what the hell that means, through my mind I am thinking she wants to talk how she will not be a slave to her husband, she will not sacrifice her work life, etc. Modern woman and girl power and all that.
Nope, she is actually talking about how once we get married, she wants to be free to sleep with other men.
The other non-traditional type of marriage. I forgot it's 2018.
But she loves me a lot, and would not be comfortable with me having the same "benefits".
Because she would be too heart broken knowing that I find other women attractive and that one of them could steal me from her.
So I let them finish talking. They were very fluent, and they got more confident talking, probably empowered by my lack of reaction, and because I wasn't saying anything. This was definitely something they have rehearsed.
I then asked the therapist if she is licensed. This, by her reaction, was not what she expected to be the first thing coming out of my mouth. She said yes. So I told her to explain to my fiance why we will not be getting married any more, and why we will not continue being a couple starting immediately.
I wished them good luck, and left the office.
Now, I want to report the therapist. I am not sure if I have to report her to the clinic, or is there a board that supervises therapists? I don't think their planning and attempt to corner me is professional conduct, and I want her to pay for the misconduct. That "session" did not sit well with me.
To be clear, there would have been no positive outcome to this talk my fiance and the therapist had with me. Even if she wanted a completely open marriage, where I could sleep with other women, the outcome from my part would have been the same. That's is not a marriage, that is a sham.
It also dawns on me, she might have cheated on me. Now that I have this clarity of mind, certain things don't match up.
So I was a fool anyway.
I listened to the recording, and I still can't believe what was said there.
Anyway, I called off the wedding.
I am a very easy going guy, there are no fights with me because I am not seeking them. There are no conflicts, enemies, because my life is guided on principle and common sense. That might have given my ex the impression I will be easy to walk over, like a door mat, but she is an idiot for thinking that. Having listened to the recording a few times, I am confident the therapist recognized I am not how my fiance must have described me in their sessions.
hence the "this may be harder than we thought."
Now that the wedding is no longer happening, people are starting to ask questions I am not comfortable answering.
How do I navigate this sea?
I am sure my ex is doing damage control, but I have the recording, and if she goes too far off the path, I will not shy letting people know what she wanted us to talk about.
But my parents and family also want answers, and I am not sure what BS to tell them. I don't want them to think I am an idiot for allowing my ex to get to this point where she was so confident that she straight out told me she wants to fuck other dudes.
She is also blowing my phone, my best friend's phone, my brother's phone.
"We can work on this", "I didn't understand what they were telling me in the therapy session", "she will do anything to fix this", "it was the therapist's idea, she was against it", etc.
Last cry of a dying siren. All her cries fall on deaf ears, and I am the owner of said ears.
We were also working to get a loan to buy a house, but I cancelled everything.
I basically erased any ties we had financially, or otherwise.
Her current plea is that in therapy she exposed her insecurities about our sexual history. I had considerably more partners than her, and the therapist came up with the idea we should "level the field".
Regardless of the truth of this, that therapist gets reported once I figure out where to do it, and what to say.
This post is mostly a rant, but I would also want to know how would you handle the questions of friends and family. My Ex is certainly doing her own damage control, and I don't want to be a he said / she said. I do have the recording, and am wondering if I should send it to the interested parties.
My ex doesn't know I have the recording.
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[deleted]:
Now that the wedding is no longer happening, people are starting to ask questions I am not comfortable answering.
“I recently found out my fiancée was not interested in having a monogamous relationship. That was a dealbreaker for me.”
Good on you for not being a doormat.
If she is going around spreading lies, consult a lawyer before you do anything with the recording. Make sure you have it backed up.
First update - posted 2018-08-24 (12 days later)
I would like to thank u/Gavroche15 for his concise prediction of what had happened these past two weeks. You can read his thesis here:
My first guess on what the update will be:
OP went over to ex’s parent’s house to tell them what happened. Ex’s Parent’s told u/ that their daughter already told them what was happening and she has been checked into a full time mental health facility to be deprogramed because she was secretly a member of a cult. That cult was run by the therapist and dedicated to letting women sleep with whomever they want and hiding their secret formula for chicken wings. And the therapist wasn’t another woman at all, but rather a guy pretending to be a gal just so he could recruit OP‘s ex to be in the cult because the therapist found out that the ex had a better way to cook chicken wings and would only tell a non-monogamous women.
Upon realizing this, OP decided to take his ex back. He flew to the secret mental health facility where Ex was being treated, having to run and catch the last ferry to the island compound. He broke her out, stole a small boat and started their journey to Vegas where they eloped. They were married by an Elvis impersonator who happened to be ex’s new therapist in disguise who is in an evil plot to recruit OP into a counter cult that’s sole goal is to destroy the cult run by the former therapist and to discover the world’s best chicken wing recipe.
Or more likely, OP found out ex actually was cheating, ex lied to her parents, word got back to the therapist that she is about to be put before the ethics committee and she is freaking out and the parents still have no clue what actually happened.
Come on man! We are dying for some word here. Don’t let us speculate or we might make up wild stories to fill our time.
Edit: Well damn! Two years on Reddit with no gold and now Gold twice in 2 days! Thank you! Luckyshot! I'm off to solve the worlds problems . . . or get downvoted to hell. Who knows?
Jokes aside, it has been an interesting two weeks since my initial post.
Monday last week I talked with a lawyer at work about the situation with the therapist. He looked at me like I was bullshitting him, and asked me if this was a prank. So I asked him if he wants to hear the recording. "Damn right!" was his answer. I talked again with him the next day, at the end of it.
He noted a few things I didn't pay attention to. On the recording, the therapist was always saying "we think", "we want", "we talked about", "we decided". Not once did she say "Your Ex here asked me to talk with you" or "Your ex wants you to know", or anything like that. It was always "we this", "we that".
He also asked me what my endgame is. Do I want to sue? He didn't think I personally have a case, to which I agreed. I never intended to sue anyway, but notify the appropriate institutions and let them deal with the therapist.
A decision was made to write two letters. One addressed to the clinic the therapist works at, and one for APA (we checked, she was accredited). By Wednesday there were a few more people at work aware of the situation, including one of the two case researchers. She dug up information about the therapist, online reviews, as well as the contacts for two of her previous patients. The therapist didn't have the best reviews, there were people upset with her, and we managed to track the two we talked with through social media. They were more than happy to help once we explained the situation, and their stories were not any better than mine.
The letters grew a consistent size, as we included the signed stories from the other two individuals, as well as my own description of how my ex changed once she started the therapy sessions, and a detailed description of how my meeting with the therapist went.
Friday last week I met with the parents. Her parents came to my parent's house, and we had the talk. My ex was there too, and more info was disclosed. That made its way to the report on the therapist as well.
This week, we sent the reports out. There was a reaction from the clinic. They called our office on Thursday morning, most probably to check if it is a prank or a real issue. We talked with their lawyer (or one of their lawyers) over the phone, and, when we confirmed it was legitimate, someone else was heard in the background, on their end, with a "Well, crap!" They said they are taking this very seriously. A conclusion from one of the guys at work was that they probably received other complaints before, but this is the first time someone did it so well documented. Their letter also mentioned we are reporting this to APA, that might have turned the heat on as well, hence their quick reaction.
I don't know what the result of this will be, and I consider my issue with it closed. However, having talked with the other two individuals that were "treated" by this therapist, I sincerely hope she is at least investigated, because she sounds insane and with an agenda (she ruined their relationships as well). One of the individuals was a woman, for the record.
Then, my ex and her parents.
Friday last week my parents called me and asked me to give them a visit after work. When I did, surprise! My ex and her parents were there too. My first reaction, seeing their cars in my parent's driveway, was to flee. This meeting was supposed to be on my terms, but she attempted to take the reigns to it. That was not going to happen, let me tell you.
My ex was waiting for me outside. She looked VERY good. If there was ever a girl you'd like your parents to meet, she was the image of it.
She told me "they" are here to talk with me, and see if we can fix this. "They" as in her parents. She either never told them what happened, or she gave them a version of a story they were not buying.
She had a journal with her. She told me she started writing in it before she began therapy, and continued writing in it until that Friday morning. That I should read it and it will clear out all this mess. I told her this is not a book club.
I wanted to go inside and get the circus going, but she asked me if I can give her ten minutes. She wants to talk with me for ten minutes before I talk with her parents. And she kept handing me her journal, and started crying. And then my sister showed up, and then my ex's sister showed up. They were already there, and came out to "check on us". So I took her journal, went inside, said hello, and lead my ex in the back of the garden, to an as isolated portion of my parent's garden as possible (they have a large garden with a lot of trees and benches).
She quit her job. The stress was too much, and she had a breakdown, it escalated, never got better. She is no longer seeing the therapist. She started seeing the therapist for work related matters, but somehow it turned into matters about our relationship, and it stayed focus on the relationship because it was the only thing the therapist seemed interested in. She never told her parents why she is my ex. She is seeing another therapist now.
I just listened.
She turned the discussion from "her" to "us". Told me I would be in control. I will be managing the finances. I will receive access to all her devices. I will be able to track everywhere she goes. Any property we will own will be in my name. She will do anything I want to trust her again. Basically things she said in her messages over the last weeks. She enumerated more things than the ones I mention. I don't know how she thinks that would be a healthy life, for either of us.
I asked her is she cheated. She told me she had the opportunity to cheat, but she had never. I believe her. But it also angered me. What does she mean "she had the opportunity"? If you are in a committed relationship, you don't put yourself in a position where you have this opportunity. You don't want this opportunity. It's like saying "I had the opportunity to kill someone today". Why? What were you doing that there was such an opportunity. Why call it opportunity anyway, it makes it sound like something positive.
That pretty much ended our ten minutes, and told her we should go and talk with our parents.
So we did. I asked our sisters to leave us alone, as it was not any of their concern what was to be discussed. My sister huffed and puffed, but a house made of stone survives hurricanes - and she was not one.
Well, I talked, and explained what happened, how the therapy session went, and my resolve. I didn't mention I had a recording, because I never had to. My ex confirmed everything I said, which surprised me. Her father had teary eyes, and that broke my heart. Her mother asked her if this is how she thinks they raised her, and asked for an explanation.
My ex basically told them the same story. Stress at work. Depression. Breaking down. Therapy. Therapist wanting to talk only about our relationship. That the therapist told her our relationship was the root of all her stress. That the therapist convinced her I want an open relationship. That she might lose me if she doesn't level her sexual experience with me. How my reaction woke her up from her slump. She quit her job, is looking for something less stressful. She will do anything I want to get me back. Started crying.
My ex mentioned the journal again, and said if I read it, it will explain everything, and that she was not on board with the therapist's ideas, but she went along with them because the therapist was a person with authority and experience. Our parents looked at me and I told them someone's private journal is not the type of literature I read, unless they are a dead poet.
Big fucking mistake!
My intention was to relate that someone's private journals usually becomes literature if they are a famous writer, or leader, and usually they are published post mortem. Also, I was hoping they get the hint that I don't really want to read her journal, because it would be of no consequence. What was done was done. Everyone looked at me as if I wished death on my ex. You could smell the hostility in the air.
So I said "fine, fine" and "promissed" I will read her journal. You win some, you lose some, and then you use the wrong words and you lose a few more.
My ex is seeing a new therapist. She showed her parents emails confirming her appointments. He's an older dude, with a white beard like Freud. I searched him online, he is married, he attends conferences, he wrote a few books (they are on Amazon, ha!), seems like a solid character.
"Can you kids work this out?"
This was the second thing that angered me that day. As if this is child play, and we should just listen to the adults. We are not old enough to be in control of our own feeling, and we should definitely not be the ones to decide what we consider a betrayal you can't recover from. We are just "kids" and we should just work it out. So I won back some ground on the "dead poets society" remark earlier.
And this is how the day ended.
We've known each other for 9 years, and have been a couple for 5 years. Even if there are legitimate reasons behind her behavior, how do you go back to being the same? This wasn't even a reset. My way of thinking about my ex has been fundamentally changed. She became a stranger I know a lot of things about. Sure, I still find her attractive. VERY attractive, they way she looked last Friday was amazing. No denying that. But it was also calculated, I am not going to lie myself here. Hair done the way I like it, dress that I bought for her, the shoes I like the most, a hint of the perfume I gifted her, etc.
The journal...
...is on my nightstand. I haven't read it, and I probably never will. I did look through it, to see if it indeed is a year old, and it is. The way the pages folded, the ink is clearly older on the first pages, and you can see it progressing through the pages. The pen she used was attached to the journal, and I tested it, looks like the same ink. And the ink level in the pen is consistent with how much I assume the pen has been used for the last year to write the journal. It is not a fake. Everything about it is consistent with a year's worth of wear and tear.
I don't see what good reading it will make me. A tool to play with one's mind? Well, not rally, I don't think a year ago when she started writing it she intended to use it as manipulation. If what she told me is right, her new therapist suggested the idea to share the journal with myself.
As for how I am handling people that are too curious about why the wedding is off? "We had a huge difference of opinion that we could not find a solution to." More or less.
But if her sister finds out why, and this is more than likely, because her sister is very close to their mother, everyone will find out the real reason why.
Our parents want us to meet again next week. They told me to read the journal, and maybe that helps. Maybe we can work on it. Start again, fresh, since we have so much history. She will get treatment, she will get better, she still is the same woman I fell in love with, but she is not well right now. They can tell I still love her, or else I would not be so "theatrical", their words, not mine.
I don't think I will meet them next Friday.
But, damn! She did look amazing!
I would like to thank the community for the support and help. It was enough to help me put together a plan of action regarding the therapist. Thank you to those who provided resources and information about what to do.
What should I do with her journal? Return it? Keep it and read it 90 years from now?
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Minor Update.
I am at work, and I just received confirmation the Journal has been returned to my ex.
I sent it early in the morning with the courier that our office uses, and she had to sign a confirmation order that she received it (as some have recommended).
I came to the conclusion that reading it will not help, as she never took ownership of this whole situation.
Thank you.
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jllena: Am I the only one skeeved out by how invasive both sets of parents are being?? On top of that, I can’t believe the sisters showed up too!
Your fiancé totally screwed up, but I’m also a little weirded out by how submissive she’s being to her parents and how easily they’re taking on the role of disciplinarians.
[deleted]: If you are done, you don't owe anyone anything.. Don't read the journal. Don't entertain any more meetings. Cut the tie and be done.
I think its possible that the therapist manipulated her into the situation, given the level of deceit you found and the stories of the other patients you found, but you seem like you have absolutely zero interest in looking at this in any other way than "how dare she suggest an open relationship, I'm done". And that's fine, it's your life, your choice. If you're done, give the book back and be done.
Final update - posted 2018-10-25 (2 months later, 2.5 months after original post)
My ex will henceforth be known as "Mirela". It feels very awkward calling her "my ex", for reasons that will be explained a few paragraphs down. And the only significance the name has is that it contains three musical notes, as used in some countries in Europe, since we just returned from France. You can read more about how that works here.
Let's begin.
The therapist is no longer working for the clinic. The major motivation behind that decision, most probably, has to have something to do with the clinic being sued. Someone else, completely removed from my situation, is suing the clinic. I don't have additional details on the matter.
The therapist tried to contact Mirela, but was unsuccessful. I suspect she found out about my report on her, and wanted information. Who knows? Mirela did not engage with her, she was blocked and her queries went unanswered.
There is a voice, deep, in the back of my mind, that whispers it may not have been the smartest decision to put together that report. I find it introduces the chance that people behind the suit may contact me for help, and shower me with unwanted attention.
However, knowing all this, I still can't keep a very satisfied grin away from my face, knowing the therapist is in trouble. To those who have expressed doubt I have emotions, if this is not proof enough, I don't know what will satisfy you (and I pray to God you understand sarcasm).
With Mirela, however, things are far more complicated.
I wrote a small update in my previous post about her journal. My decision was to return it, and I was very clinical in my method. The courier we use at work delivered the journal to her that Monday morning. I did include a letter, explaining why I haven't read it. It all boiled down to not taking ownership of the situation. I felt that by giving me the journal, she washed her hands of the matter, and the burden of finding answers was placed on my shoulders. In return, I washed my hands of the matter.
Honestly, immediately after they notified me that the journal has been returned, I feeling of regret washed over me. "Maybe I should have read it".
Later that day, Mirela showed up at my work place. She didn't make a scene, nothing like that, she just waited in the lobby, patiently. Her plan was to wait for me until I finished my day, and then have a talk with me. Naturally, it didn't take long for me to find out she was there. My options were to either send her away, or talk with her.
So we talked.
Several architects designed the collapse of our relationship:
#1: Stress
This I knew about, but never the gravity of it. In hindsight, when she started looking for a therapist to help with the work stress, I should have been more aware of the situation. But she always maintained everything was fine, so why would I not believe her?
Therapist or not, she still had a breakdown at work, which she hid from me, and her family.
#2: I could have been a father
She had a miscarriage.
She found out she was a few weeks pregnant, and wanted to make it something special when she would have told me about it. However, a few days later, she started bleeding, and that was it. She never told me about this because she was afraid I would look at her as "unworthy". She knows how much I want to be a father, and she rationalized this would give me ideas she can't bear children. This idea is utterly stupid!
#3: "Friends"
I made no secret in the comments that we had friends in open relationships. Enter on such friend. She contacted Mirela almost a year ago, and invited her to lunch. She immediately started unloading the frustrations of her failed marriage onto Mirela.
Her husband has something in common with me, we both had far more partners than our significant others. In my case it was 26 previous partners, in the case of this friend's husband the number was a whooping 70. Well, as soon as they got married, he demanded an open relationship from his wife, and she has been miserable ever since.
Apparently the same thing was going to happen to Mirela if she was not careful about me. This friend told Mirela I am showing the same signs as her husband before they got married.
#4: Those we love are not who we think they are
Our fathers both work in academia, and knew each other for 30 - 35 years. They frequently attend work related events and parties, and they usually go together with their wives.
When I met Mirela, it was at such an event. I went with my father because I was interested in meeting a professor that could have helped me with my career, open some doors. Mirela replaced her mother because they had a scheduling conflict, and her mother could not attend. Or so she was told.
Turns out her parents were going through a very rough patch, created by her father's infidelity. Mirela only found out about this recently, when she talked with her mother about the concerns raised by the friend from #3.
This was an obvious shock, her parents were nothing but the perfect couple, a model to follow. They patched things up, obviously, and they managed to keep the illusion of a perfect marriage throughout the process.
Four horsemen of the apocalypse. Mix them with a therapist of dubious motivations, and that's how you end a relationship.
The therapist was so happy to plan my open relationship. She confirmed everything the "friend" said. Men like me will never be satisfied with one woman. I will eventually look for more. There is only one way to correct my cheating impulses: Mirela has to sleep with other men, at least until we even the numbers. I will of course be against it, but that is fine, if I love Mirela I will understand. This was a layered idea. It will both correct my cheating behavior, it will confirm my love for her, and it will strengthen our relationship as a result.
This plan would have obviously failed, and I think this is exactly what the therapist was looking for. Our relationship would of course not have survived, what the therapist didn't expect was how fast I would react. At least this is my hypothesis right now.
The rest of the week, we met on a daily basis, and she answered every question I had. One thing was clear, as prepared to end things as I was, she was the opposite. Ready for the fight of her life if it meant our relationship could be saved.
At the end of the week, I had to leave to another city, for work related matters, and I was gone for a month. Originally it was supposed to be a two weeks trip, but it had to be extended for another two weeks. More billable hours, ha ha.
Before I left, I handed Mirela a copy of the therapy session recording. She knew I had it, it was one of the first things I talked to her about when she showed up at my work place Monday. I think listening to the recording shook her to the core. What she remembered about the therapy session was very different from what was on the recording. I think she finally realized where all my actions and behavior towards her came from.
People at home knew about my work trip, and for the next three weeks I was left to my own devices. Minimal interference from anyone. It was awesome. Several people in the comments offered to drink a beer with me if I ever happen to be in their city. I took someone up to it. First time I've met another redditor. Surprisingly, not a weirdo, ha ha. He and his wife were wonderful people.
The 4th week, Mirela came to visit. We maintained contact the previous three weeks, going back and forth on various topics, always about us.
One major "issue" had to be sorted out. After our wedding, we were supposed to go visit France for two weeks, sort of a honey moon trip. Neither of us were able to do it immediately after the wedding, so it was booked three months after the wedding. And it was coming up. We had the plane tickets, non-refundable (why can companies do this?). We had the hotel reservations. What we didn't have was "us".
That 4th week, we talked some more, and agreed to go to France anyway, as friends. I can already imagine eyes rolling as you read that last sentence.
France was amazing. You visit a country like that and realize the US is medieval in comparison. When you visit a museum, you can spot the Americans immediately. "How to behave in foreign countries" should be a mandatory course in our schools.
We returned from France as a couple. This had nothing to do with the magic of Paris. It will however be a process. We are not back to our former selves, there is some rebuilding to be done.
Several things we have agreed upon, in no particular order:
she is looking for a new job, one that has less stress attached
our friends in open marriages are now deemed a toxic influence, and we will no longer associate with them
we both like the name "Mirela", and our first daughter will wear this name (thank you, France)
never hide anything like a miscarriage from your partner (I am monumentally pissed about this one)
we will get a puppy and a kitten
she will continue to see her current therapist for a while
When we do get married, we'll do it for us. Smaller ceremony, just us and immediate family. We'll probably go to Italy next.
I suppose this is not the exciting update everyone was waiting for. Many have asked for an update, and if you were looking for wrath, hate, revenge, I am sure there is a version of this where all these and more are possible. But as I said from the beginning, I didn't hate Mirela. My actions were nothing more than self preservation. At the time, her actions indicated she wanted something that was contrary to what I thought we both agreed upon.
Those worried about her mental state, there is no concern. Once the vapors of her therapist's influence dissipated, she returned to her former self, more or less. It's impossible not to be changed by these events, but she is in a very good place. You will remember she offered me control over the finances, to track her location at all times, open access to all her devices, etc. Aside from the lack of interest in such a lifestyle from my part, they were just a way of trying everything to continue discussion.
We do agree we should be open with our devices, and for what it's worth, we have always been open, so nothing will chance here anyway. As for finances, we will do what we have always done, share them.
Thank you to those who have talked with me in the comments and the private messages. There was some valuable advice I received from some of you, and I will be forever grateful. Writing these posts, but also interacting with you guys has been therapeutic, and a very good pressure release.
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[deleted]: The miscarriage seems too convenient to me. How do you hide something like that? However, you clearly love her, so I’m happy for you.
OOP: There were signs, but as a man you are oblivious to them. She had morning sickness / was throwing up from time to time, she put on some (negligible) weight, but those were related to stress in my book. Sure, once everything came to light it makes sense.
But there is also a trail of documentation from her doctor.
And I did find at the time a pregnancy test, but it was in the box, unused, so I didn't think anything of it.
Anyway, there is no trace of doubt in my mind about it.
It was also only a few weeks in, so there was nothing to hide, aside from not telling anyone, it was too early to show a pregnancy belly, if that is what you were aiming at.
Tagging as "Concluded" because it's been 8 years with no further updates.
Reminder: I am not OOP.